Opinion Hinesight, Knightsight and Hindsight Nov 2012

[Apex36]

Again with your ad hominem abuse.

I said you were being disingenuous. If you regard that as abuse, then you need to harden up. If you regard someone disagreeing with you as abuse, you need to harden up. This is a discussion board. I'm not required to agree with you.

If you recruit an injury prone player and he ends up being injury prone, I would call that dumb. Scharenberg had SERIOUS problems with his feet. Now he has had 2 ACLs both of which were no contact injuries. We may as well start calling him Lee Walker. He has been nothing but a disastrous pick 6.

Those serious problems with his feet were completely fixed within his first year. They had nothing to do with his ACL injuries. I'm not sure why you're persisting with linking the two. It's the equivalent of saying that Darcy Moore had a hamstring injury last year, and that it's part of the reason why he broke his collar bone a fortnight ago. It's a ludicrous thing to suggest.

I see you dropped the Freeman abuse of me. A disaster at Pick 10.

What abuse? Is asking a simple question about his injury history as a junior now regarded as abuse? If it is, then perhaps you should report me.

Grundy is the world's tallest half forward flanker. He strike fear into no one except Jarrod Witts. His best year was 2013. A disaster at pick 18.

Go and look at Grundy's stats against the current best rucks in the league at the same age. You might be surprised.

Kennedy is hopeless. He did some good things yesterday but a lot of shit things like at Collingwood. Not a first rounder's a-hole. And more relevant, GONE from Collingwood. A waste at pick 19.

Hopeless, yet best 22 in a side that completely roflstomped us twice this year. Okay. 51 disposals and 2 goals in two games against us suggest he's not as bad as you want him to be. He's gone because he was mismanaged by our coaching staff, not because he wasn't good enough, and he's currently proving it.

Broomhead is a head case. Four seasons of tripe. Good player improve, he has not moved on iota from his first season and will be gone by this season's end. A waste at pick 20.

Why is he a head case? Seems like an unneccessary swipe at a kid who's not an outgoing type. Has he really had an opportunity to improve? The only sustained run he has had at senior level was last year, and he showed a lot of improvement in that short period until he was struck down by injury again. You're conveniently overlooking that improvement to suit your argument.

That is 5 first round draft picks wasted by Hine.

I see 1 player who's still 20 and has potentially 10 years to play out his career. We got dominated by a ruckman who's had 2 ACL reconstructions yesterday. Writing off Scharenberg as a wasted pick at this point is premature.
1 player who had a freak injury, who was very likely mismanaged by our medical team. A wasted pick to be sure, but it's unfair to square the blame on the recruiter, who at least managed to secure a second round pick in return for him.
1 ruckman who is only 22 who was in the best 22 under 22 last year, who is bizarrely being written off by you 2-3 years before his prime.
1 player starved of opportunity who has found a place in the best 22 at another club and is thriving, who under normal circumstances would be regarded as a second round pick.
1 player who has had a horror run with injury/illness but has shown glimpses of genuine talent when given the opportunity, who also would have been regarded as a second round selection in an uncompromised draft.

It's astounding that you're attempting to lay the blame on Hine for injuries that could never have been predicted, and for Grundy not developing in to a genuine top class ruckman quickly enough for your tastes. Yet here we are. If the stuff about Freeman's junior career is true then you could probably put Blame on Hine for 1 of the 5 players you've listed. I'm shocked that Grundy is even in this conversation though.

If a player doesn't prepare properly off field to be at his best physically for senior football, then you SHOULD CARE what they do off the field. Only an uninformed fanboy wouldn't.

De Goey should take a leaf out of his former team mates' books, Phillips and Crocker. THEY are fully professional. DE Goey let down his whole team as did Adams. At least Adams has some points on the board but it was laughable of a bloated Mick McGuane to put him up for captaincy NOW. He has to show he has earned it and that wont happed overnight.

So by that, you're obviously implying that DeGoey was one of the players, along with Adams, who tested positive over the offseason. Do you have any evidence that he's still partaking, or was partaking in such activities during the season proper? Do you have any evidence that he was partaking in such activities before he was drafted? You're trying to blame Hine for this after all, so clearly there must have been some talk about DeGoey being a party boy before he was drafted. I eagerly await your next reply. Hopefully this time you won't twist facts to suit your agenda.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Scharenberg had to have bones removed from his feet and the Pies still drafted him. When they have injury concerns as juniors rarely do they escape continuing injury as adults. This kid is injury prone as he has proven.

I think that is a fair call if Scharenburg was still having feet issues, but he is not. Its plain bad luck, saying anyone is injury prone is like saying a witch doctor cursed him. All they can do is take medical advice on board - which they did and which ended up being correct - although some nervous moments. If they are pre-disposed to a condition, like diabetes or concussion problems that is a different matter, but no one can be pre-disposed to being "injury prone" unless a witch doctor has been in the medical room.

There are countless examples of kids with injury issues early being fine after being drafted like Chris Judd and his bung shoulders - as many succeed as fail it is not a rarity at all. There are also countless examples of uninjured juniors getting injured when they hit an AFL list. Just because they are injured as a junior in no way means they will continue with their witch doctor curse. The exception I would be careful of is concussions. Concussions are a serious issue and can cause early retirement if they continue given we now know its an accumulative thing. I would be wary of kids who have continually been knocked out as a junior as it really is for their own benefit that they not play.

There was a lot of talk about Jesse Stringer in the lead up to the draft both personal and injury wise, but the Dogs stuck with him and reaping the rewards.

I also think it is a sad state that people and clubs see players as disposable or worthless when they get injured as a young kid who has not yet been able to realise their potential. Daniel Menzel is proof of why Geelong is a great club, most others would have not persisted and I am glad they are getting due rewards and we will get ours with Scharenburg.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

[QUOTE="Maggie Greg, post: 45043653, member: 3046"]Hand Grenade? Is that what the call the truth these days.[/QUOTE]
I thought truth was the first casualty of war

 

[Unknown Identity]

Now you tell us

I've said it in the Freeman thread..

We were so desperate for pace.. so they rolled the dice!

 

[Maggie Greg]

But you have NOTHING to Back up your Claims

Like what? What proof do you require? LOL!

 

[Maggie Greg]

[QUOTE="Maggie Greg, post: 45043653, member: 3046"]Hand Grenade? Is that what the call the truth these days.

I thought truth was the first casualty of war[/QUOTE]
Jesus, I didn't realise we were at War. I thought it was just a fan forum.

 

[Maggie Greg]

I said you were being disingenuous. If you regard that as abuse, then you need to harden up. If you regard someone disagreeing with you as abuse, you need to harden up. This is a discussion board. I'm not required to agree with you.

Those serious problems with his feet were completely fixed within his first year. They had nothing to do with his ACL injuries. I'm not sure why you're persisting with linking the two. It's the equivalent of saying that Darcy Moore had a hamstring injury last year, and that it's part of the reason why he broke his collar bone a fortnight ago. It's a ludicrous thing to suggest.

What abuse? Is asking a simple question about his injury history as a junior now regarded as abuse? If it is, then perhaps you should report me.

Go and look at Grundy's stats against the current best rucks in the league at the same age. You might be surprised.

Hopeless, yet best 22 in a side that completely roflstomped us twice this year. Okay. 51 disposals and 2 goals in two games against us suggest he's not as bad as you want him to be. He's gone because he was mismanaged by our coaching staff, not because he wasn't good enough, and he's currently proving it.

Why is he a head case? Seems like an unneccessary swipe at a kid who's not an outgoing type. Has he really had an opportunity to improve? The only sustained run he has had at senior level was last year, and he showed a lot of improvement in that short period until he was struck down by injury again. You're conveniently overlooking that improvement to suit your argument.

I see 1 player who's still 20 and has potentially 10 years to play out his career. We got dominated by a ruckman who's had 2 ACL reconstructions yesterday. Writing off Scharenberg as a wasted pick at this point is premature.
1 player who had a freak injury, who was very likely mismanaged by our medical team. A wasted pick to be sure, but it's unfair to square the blame on the recruiter, who at least managed to secure a second round pick in return for him.
1 ruckman who is only 22 who was in the best 22 under 22 last year, who is bizarrely being written off by you 2-3 years before his prime.
1 player starved of opportunity who has found a place in the best 22 at another club and is thriving, who under normal circumstances would be regarded as a second round pick.
1 player who has had a horror run with injury/illness but has shown glimpses of genuine talent when given the opportunity, who also would have been regarded as a second round selection in an uncompromised draft.

It's astounding that you're attempting to lay the blame on Hine for injuries that could never have been predicted, and for Grundy not developing in to a genuine top class ruckman quickly enough for your tastes. Yet here we are. If the stuff about Freeman's junior career is true then you could probably put Blame on Hine for 1 of the 5 players you've listed. I'm shocked that Grundy is even in this conversation though.

So by that, you're obviously implying that DeGoey was one of the players, along with Adams, who tested positive over the offseason. Do you have any evidence that he's still partaking, or was partaking in such activities during the season proper? Do you have any evidence that he was partaking in such activities before he was drafted? You're trying to blame Hine for this after all, so clearly there must have been some talk about DeGoey being a party boy before he was drafted. I eagerly await your next reply. Hopefully this time you won't twist facts to suit your agenda.

What sort of evidence do you want that will meet the lofty standards of a fan forum?

A letter from his Mum?

What was worse is the players who have off field issues aren't confined to young players which makes it a total schermozzle.

Hopefully Hine is gone by the end of the year and as it looks with Gubby Allan back on board, that will be the case. You cant stuff up the most important picks we have had in the last 10 years and escape scrutiny.

I note the SA experiment obviously inspired by Matt Rendell through his SA connections has proven to be a complete ballsup.

Scharenberg had a serious injury - when they remove bone from your foot it isn't an ingrown toenail. Taking a player with a serious injury is always fraught with danger. I have never said they are the same injury, I have said it shows someone who is likely to be injury prone.They should have gone for a fit player, NEVER draft a player who is injured, they always end up never making it. We did it again last year and that player cant even get on the park in the VFL. Your Darcy Moore hamstring example is really a red herring.

You don't have to agree now. You will with the fullness of time.

 

[loki04]

What sort of evidence do you want that will meet the lofty standards of a fan forum?

A letter from his Mum?

What was worse is the players who have off field issues aren't confined to young players which makes it a total schermozzle.

Hopefully Hine is gone by the end of the year and as it looks with Gubby Allan back on board, that will be the case. You cant stuff up the most important picks we have had in the last 10 years and escape scrutiny.

I note the SA experiment obviously inspired by Matt Rendell through his SA connections has proven to be a complete ballsup.

Scharenberg had a serious injury - when they remove bone from your foot it isn't an ingrown toenail. Taking a player with a serious injury is always fraught with danger. I have never said they are the same injury, I have said it shows someone who is likely to be injury prone.They should have gone for a fit player, NEVER draft a player who is injured, they always end up never making it. We did it again last year and that player cant even get on the park in the VFL. Your Darcy Moore hamstring example is really a red herring.

You don't have to agree now. You will with the fullness of time.

So you don't see the possibility of Scharenberg coming back from injury?

Surely if the reco goes well and he hasn't had any ongoing issues with his feet or other knee (which to date he hasn't) then the likely outcome is he returns next season.

For me it is how much impact has the injuries had on his ability to become a top shelf player both from a mental and physical aspect.

Menzel coming off 4 knee recos should give us all hope.

 

[TheSierBear]

So you don't see the possibility of Scharenberg coming back from injury?

Surely if the reco goes well and he hasn't had any ongoing issues with his feet or other knee (which to date he hasn't) then the likely outcome is he returns next season.

For me it is how much impact has the injuries had on his ability to become a top shelf player both from a mental and physical aspect.

Menzel coming off 4 knee recos should give us all hope.

Gawn x 3 knee recos too.

 

[Apex36]

What sort of evidence do you want that will meet the lofty standards of a fan forum?

A letter from his Mum?

What was worse is the players who have off field issues aren't confined to young players which makes it a total schermozzle.

Hopefully Hine is gone by the end of the year and as it looks with Gubby Allan back on board, that will be the case. You cant stuff up the most important picks we have had in the last 10 years and escape scrutiny.

So really you've got nothing.

I note the SA experiment obviously inspired by Matt Rendell through his SA connections has proven to be a complete ballsup.

All still AFL listed players and the club has enough confidence in Broomhead that they have an extension in front of him ready to go.

Scharenberg had a serious injury - when they remove bone from your foot it isn't an ingrown toenail. Taking a player with a serious injury is always fraught with danger. I have never said they are the same injury, I have said it shows someone who is likely to be injury prone.

No it doesn't. That's complete garbage.
They should have gone for a fit player,

NEVER draft a player who is injured, they always end up never making it. We did it again last year and that player cant even get on the park in the VFL.

Joel Selwood, Chris Judd, and plenty of other players who were injured as juniors who made it in the AFL say hi.
And who is this mysterious player we drafted last year who can't get on the park? As far as I know our only currently injured draftee is Sier, who had no injury concerns and is out with a broken hand.

Your Darcy Moore hamstring example is really a red herring.

Actually it's a perfect example of trying to correlate two injuries which have absolutely no bearing on each other, which is exactly what you're continuing to try to do in regards to Scharenbergs injuries.

You don't have to agree now. You will with the fullness of time.

I can pretty much guarantee you I won't, because most of what you're saying is absurd.

 

[CFC2010]

Gawn x 3 knee recos too.

Gawn x 2 knee recos.....not 3

 

[jathanas]

Our current predicament is making it difficult for many of my fellow posters to be optimistic about anything Collingwood related; fair enough too.

I'd like think that Schaz will return of healthy mind and body at some stage. Many excellent footballers have been plagued by devastating knee injuries and enjoyed solid careers e.g. Licuria, Menzel etc

 

[TheSierBear]

Gawn x 2 knee recos.....not 3

oh just 2 knee reco's? Must be a poor example then.

 

[Maggie Greg]

So really you've got nothing.


All still AFL listed players and the club has enough confidence in Broomhead that they have an extension in front of him ready to go.

No it doesn't. That's complete garbage.
They should have gone for a fit player,
Joel Selwood, Chris Judd, and plenty of other players who were injured as juniors who made it in the AFL say hi.
And who is this mysterious player we drafted last year who can't get on the park? As far as I know our only currently injured draftee is Sier, who had no injury concerns and is out with a broken hand.

Actually it's a perfect example of trying to correlate two injuries which have absolutely no bearing on each other, which is exactly what you're continuing to try to do in regards to Scharenbergs injuries.

I can pretty much guarantee you I won't, because most of what you're saying is absurd.

I don’t know what "proof" you want me to provide?


Your guarantees are pretty worthless though like a Grundy tap out.


You appear to be just a fanboy and not much else. Tell me, if everyone is impressed with Hine, why bring Gubby Allan in? And don't tell me its for the netball because you and I both know that is rubbish.


Another thing I do know is that our development of young players has pretty much flat lined as well ever since Alan Richardson was turfed out by Madhouse.


We were ahead of the pack in this regard but just as in recruiting we are now following the pack.


As for Hine lets look at it shall we?


2011 - Jacskon Paine, Corey Gault and Jarrod Witts - One already dumped, one about to be and one who wont make it.


2012 - Grundy, Kennedy Broomhead Ramsay. _ The pity about this is Ramsay has shown the most talent.. Kennedy was crap and is gone. Don't give me his stats for two games. He is making all the same errors he ever made and will be another Simon Eishold.


2013 Scharenberg Freeman Langdon Marsh Oxley Scahrenberg has hardly played football for three years and now has two ACLs. You cant compare him to Menzel who was already killing them before his first injury. He had shown something. Freeman a big mistake from the get go and gawn. Langdon has gone backwards. Marsh, has shown glimpses but not much. Oxley the jury is out.


Hine had his day in the sun like Noel Judkins, but as happens with everyone, he is past his use by date. I would say the same for Gubby Allan but it does show intent on the part of the club.

And I just noted you have posted on average every two months as many posts as I have posted in 14 years. There is a life outside you know.

 

[sr36]

Grundy is the world's tallest half forward flanker. He strike fear into no one except Jarrod Witts. His best year was 2013. A disaster at pick 18.

Kennedy is hopeless. He did some good things yesterday but a lot of shit things like at Collingwood. Not a first rounder's a-hole. And more relevant, GONE from Collingwood. A waste at pick 19.

Broomhead is a head case. Four seasons of tripe. Good player improve, he has not moved on iota from his first season and will be gone by this season's end. A waste at pick 20.

I like melodrama too, but have a look at the blokes taken after these 3 in that draft:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_AFL_draft

Hine made good selections, even if they don't make it.

 

[Scottabe_pendles]

oh just 2 knee reco's? Must be a poor example then.

Fortunately he did his knee at the end of 2014 and avoided a third knee reconstruction.... Three serious knee issues.... Remember how clubs took Mitch Thorpe over Selwood because of Selwoods degenerative knee HAHA

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-09-02/ive-dodged-an-acl-good-news-for-gawn

 

[Maggie Greg]

I like melodrama too, but have a look at the blokes taken after these 3 in that draft:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_AFL_draft

Hine made good selections, even if they don't make it.

Grundy is still the world's tallest half forward flanker - he inherited that moniker from Josh Fraser. Except Fraser at the same age was way ahead of Grundy and that's saying something.

 

[TheSierBear]

Grundy is still the world's tallest half forward flanker - he inherited that moniker from Josh Fraser. Except Fraser at the same age was way ahead of Grundy and that's saying something.

Name me a ruck 23 years or younger developing better than Grundy?

 

[sr36]

Grundy is still the world's tallest half forward flanker - he inherited that moniker from Josh Fraser. Except Fraser at the same age was way ahead of Grundy and that's saying something.

It was still good drafting. Very few, perhaps no players, taken after Grundy will have better AFL careers.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I thought truth was the first casualty of war

Jesus, I didn't realise we were at War. I thought it was just a fan forum.[/QUOTE]
Fan forum not war? News to me.
Only kidding

 

[TheSierBear]

It was still good drafting. Very few, perhaps no players, taken after Grundy will have better AFL careers.

Wines, Macrae, Whitfield, Stringer, Viney, these are the only candidates, maybe Daniher, who are arguably, tracking better than Grundy. If the draft was re-done he would go top ten.

 

[sr36]

Wines, Macrae, Whitfield, Stringer, Viney, these are the only candidates, maybe Daniher, who are arguably, tracking better than Grundy. If the draft was re-done he would go top ten.

And these guys were all either father son or taken well before Grundy.

 

[ZEV]

It was still good drafting. Very few, perhaps no players, taken after Grundy will have better AFL careers.

jack viney and lachie hunter will have him covered I reckon.

 

[ZEV]

Well you can't compare any of them with Gawn.

Gawn is an experienced ruckman who has been in the system 7 years. He has only just started becoming truly productive last year and this should be the measuring stick for the guys you mentioned. Ruckmen take a long time to develop and Gawn highlights how much more development those guys need. Witts is still a couple of years behind Gawn. Gawn a few years back was pretty much useless and in fact reminds me of Witts in a few ways. Witts needs to start producing next year consistently, but we forget he is still a work in progress. Grundy is a long way ahead of Gawn at the same time and I am not even going to mention Cox in comparisons as anyone expecting him to come in and beat up on a guy like Gawn is truly dreaming.

Gawn got drafted in 2009, the same year we used a similar pick to draft a guy called Luke Ball. The same year we recruited a guy called Darren Jolly. Both were key contributors to a premiership so I feel Hine is pretty well ahead on that score.

Grundy has played more AFL games than Gawn.

 

[TradeDraft]

Grundy has played more AFL games than Gawn.

But Gawn is older