Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Michael Riley said:
Fitzroy Round 10 1937
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1937/061119370626.html

I believe Les Hughson played and not Mick Hughson

Age League Teams has "L.Hughson" Friday before the game.
TEAMS FOR TO-MORROW. (1937, June 25). The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), p. 5. Retrieved December 16, 2017, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203872115

Age League teams for the following week does not list Hughson as an alteration to the team
TEAMS FOR TO-MORROW. (1937, July 2). The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), p. 14. Retrieved December 16, 2017, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205567833
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Looks to be very likely they have that wrong. The team in The Age names L. Hughson as the ruckman. The taller Les (apparently) was a ruckman, and Mick a centreman. The match report in The Sporting Globe only names "Hughson" in the lineup, but again he is named in the ruck.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190343727/20734221

An article in The Argus on the Monday after the game says "Mick Hughson has been a consistent man in the centre for the seconds and Morgan who regained his form in the same team, should be considered soon for promotion."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11075081

The Age on the Monday named "Hughson" in the Reserves best players.
 
I'm not sure what's been going on with the Football Record online (SLV) today, but I haven't been able to get anywhere with it. Presumably it's just a maintenance thing!
 

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35Daicos said:
I'm not sure what's been going on with the Football Record online (SLV) today, but I haven't been able to get anywhere with it. Presumably it's just a maintenance thing!
Click to expand...

Yes, has been out of whack when I've checked it too.
Even the general "search digitised collections" page has been playing up.
They're usually pretty quick patching up faults like that, so guess we may have to wait until tomorrow, or Monday morning at latest.
 
the croucher said:
I think the player list for Rnd 12 1937 is also incorrect
https://australianfootball.com/game/view/3505
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1937/061519370710.html

M Hughson being named, but in fact it ought to be Les Hughson credited with playing.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205572027 clearly identified as L Hughson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205572096 see comment at end of this item
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Quite clear cut this one as well! Looking at the Sporting Globe report for the Rd. 12 match it's obvious that it was Les playing. A week later and both were in the team together (as the records do have it), and it says M. Hughson was one of two last minute changes for Fitzroy.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/180835964/20728777

Edit: The Rd. 13 Football Record says (page 24) "St. Kilda supporters must have watched Les. Hughson’s form last week with mingled feelings of surprise and disappointment. He played a wonderful game against his former side, and was the biggest factor in the Maroons’ success."
 
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Michael Riley said:
Fitzroy Round 10 1937
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1937/061119370626.html

Third... I believe that this is possibly a team photo from that game
http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Fitzroy+Senior+Team+1936+(FBLHS+S36-1)
This photo cannot be 1936. Either Frank Curcio or Doug Nicholls played in every game in 1936 and neither are in the photo.

And all players appear to match the homegame in Round 10...apart from the fact that it is Les Hughson (Far right centre row).
Back: Alf Callick, Unknown, Unknown. Bill Multimer, Dinny Ryan, Bill Lowenthal, Unknown
Centre: R. 'Jock'.McKenzie, Wally Gray, B.Treweek, Unknown (T.Williams), Haydn Bunton, Unknown, Horrie Dawson, Les Hughson
Front: Micky Sharp, Unknown, Wilfred Smallhorn

If it is Tommy Williams in the centre of the photo then I cannot match this photo to any game?
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Michael, why would it cause a problem if it is Tommy Williams in the photo? If you think it may be a photo of the Fitzroy team for the Rd. 10 1937 game, as Williams was named in the lineup I just can't figure out what the issue would be! Chances are I'm missing something obvious here, but I can't see it!!

Another good reason why it couldn't be a 1936 Fitzroy photo is that the well-travelled Les Hughson was still at St Kilda that year!
 
In regards to the Hughsons, it appears from birth records that Mick's full name was actually
Magnus James Michell.
Les was Leslie William Mitchell and Fred was Frederic Lionel.

year reg# gender surname first names father mother birth place
1907 29785 M Hughson Leslie William Mitchell; Leslie Holley; Mitchell Mary Ann; Richmond
1911 2556 F Hughson Irma Ellen; Leslie Holley; Mitchell Mary Ann; Collingwood
1913 7402 F Hughson Phyllis Emily; Leslie Holley; Mitchell Mary Ann; Sale
1914 11739 Hughson Frederic Lionel; Leslie Holley; Mitchell Mary Ann; Collingwood
1915 33079 Hughson Magnus James Michell; Leslie Holley; Mitchell Mary Ann; Northcote
1919 13835 Hughson Mona Doris; Leslie Holley; Mitchell Mary Ann; Northcote ​

Ping Oliver Gigacz, please update AustralianFootball with these full names.
 
35Daicos said:
Michael, why would it cause a problem if it is Tommy Williams in the photo? If you think it may be a photo of the Fitzroy team for the Rd. 10 1937 game, as Williams was named in the lineup I just can't figure out what the issue would be! Chances are I'm missing something obvious here, but I can't see it!!

Another good reason why it couldn't be a 1936 Fitzroy photo is that the well-travelled Les Hughson was still at St Kilda that year!
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Nope...My error. I must have deleted his name from the spreadsheet I was working on.
I have been staring at these photos for so long
 
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RedmanWasHere said:
Can someone please verify something?
Was Footscray's Terry a De Koning or De Konning?

His son Tom, who was drafted by Carlton, has one N so Terry should have one N too.

Cheers.
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Well picked up! The AFL Historical Statistics pages had him as De Konning. Interestingly, they left his name off the Footscray 1980 Club Lists page, yet he debuted that year. AFL Tables has De Konning as well. The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has De Koning.

AustralianFootball.com has Terry De Koning. https://australianfootball.com/players/player/terry+de+koning/11433

Yet a Google search suggests the site may have altered it at some stage:- "Australian Football. ... Full name Terry De Konning . Known as Terry De Konning. Born 10 May 1961 (age 56) ... Jumper numbers Footscray: 11. Terry De Konning." https://australianfootball.com/players/player/terry+de+konning/11433

A search of the Football Record (online) for De Koning comes up with lots of hits, all the way through 1981 and a few in 1982 as well. He apparently moved to St Kilda for the 1984 season and was still called De Koning in the Record. He's named De Konning once in 1978, twice in 1980 and just once in 1981.

It's quite likely they had it pointed out to them (VFL) that it should be De Koning, and went with that from 1981 onwards.

De Koning as well on Facebook (it won't let me paste the link properly). Seems very clear that is what it should be.
 
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35Daicos said:
Well picked up! The AFL Historical Statistics pages had him as De Konning. Interestingly, they left his name off the Footscray 1980 Club Lists page, yet he debuted that year. AFL Tables has De Konning as well. The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has De Koning.

AustralianFootball.com has Terry De Koning. https://australianfootball.com/players/player/terry+de+koning/11433

Yet a Google search suggests the site may have altered it at some stage:- "Australian Football. ... Full name Terry De Konning . Known as Terry De Konning. Born 10 May 1961 (age 56) ... Jumper numbers Footscray: 11. Terry De Konning." https://australianfootball.com/players/player/terry+de+konning/11433

A search of the Football Record (online) for De Koning comes up with lots of hits, all the way through 1981 and a few in 1982 as well. He apparently moved to St Kilda for the 1984 season and was still called De Koning in the Record. He's named De Konning once in 1978, twice in 1980 and just once in 1981.

It's quite likely they had it pointed out to them (VFL) that it should be De Koning, and went with that from 1981 onwards.

De Koning as well on Facebook (it won't let me paste the link properly). Seems very clear that is what it should be.
Click to expand...


Very well summarised and laid out.

Can you please trim one N from this surname *Paul*?

Cheers.
 
John Allan played for Collingwood in 1902-1903

australianfootball.com and Collingwood Forever have death of 27 Dec 1933 and CollingwoodForever also names him John W Allan and mentions he later lost an arm in a work accident. Original club: Blenheim (from Port Melbourne area)

Looking on Trove (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203366343) the following death notice seems to be him:
ALLAN.— On the 28th December, (suddenly), at his residence. 134 Evans-street. Port Melbourne, John William ("Son"), the dearly loved husband of Phoebe Allan, and loving father of John, Percival, Harold, Leonard and Edna.

and corresponding VIC BDM entry:
Name: Jno Wm Allan
Birth Year: abt 1879
Age: 54
Death Place: North Melbourne, Victoria (note: not sure why this is not Port Melb)
Father's name: Jno Wm Allan
Mother's name: Sarah Simmons
Registration Year: 1933

His mother Sarah Simmonds died in 1920: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4594837
Also names John William with nickname "Son" - living in Port Melbourne - confirms match between death entry above and newspaper notice

VIC BDM has birth entry:
Name: John William Allen
Birth Date: Abt 1879
Birth Place: Emerald Hill, Victoria
Registration Year: 1879
Father: John Allen
Mother: Sarah Simmonds
Registration Number: 22963

which shows birth is in 1879, however all football sources give DOB of 26 Oct 1882. Nothing in 1882 seems like a good match in Vic BDM.

1) Is this the right person? I can't see any other likely candidates but the player may have moved overseas and the death above may be a pure co-incidence. Any cross ref with him losing his arm in an accident would help here.
2) If it is the right person, it seems birth date recorded is incorrect (and possibly DOD: 27 Dec vs 28 Dec, although could be wrong in paper...)
 

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WhiteHartLane23 said:
John Allan played for Collingwood in 1902-1903

australianfootball.com and Collingwood Forever have death of 27 Dec 1933 and CollingwoodForever also names him John W Allan and mentions he later lost an arm in a work accident. Original club: Blenheim (from Port Melbourne area)

Looking on Trove (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203366343) the following death notice seems to be him:
ALLAN.— On the 28th December, (suddenly), at his residence. 134 Evans-street. Port Melbourne, John William ("Son"), the dearly loved husband of Phoebe Allan, and loving father of John, Percival, Harold, Leonard and Edna.

and corresponding VIC BDM entry:
Name: Jno Wm Allan
Birth Year: abt 1879
Age: 54
Death Place: North Melbourne, Victoria (note: not sure why this is not Port Melb)
Father's name: Jno Wm Allan
Mother's name: Sarah Simmons
Registration Year: 1933

His mother Sarah Simmonds died in 1920: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4594837
Also names John William with nickname "Son" - living in Port Melbourne - confirms match between death entry above and newspaper notice

VIC BDM has birth entry:
Name: John William Allen
Birth Date: Abt 1879
Birth Place: Emerald Hill, Victoria
Registration Year: 1879
Father: John Allen
Mother: Sarah Simmonds
Registration Number: 22963

which shows birth is in 1879, however all football sources give DOB of 26 Oct 1882. Nothing in 1882 seems like a good match in Vic BDM.

1) Is this the right person? I can't see any other likely candidates but the player may have moved overseas and the death above may be a pure co-incidence. Any cross ref with him losing his arm in an accident would help here.
2) If it is the right person, it seems birth date recorded is incorrect (and possibly DOD: 27 Dec vs 28 Dec, although could be wrong in paper...)
Click to expand...

Cannot find anything yet which relates to an accident resulting in loss of an arm.

John married Phoebe Mardell in 1902 according to Vic BDMs, and she died in early June 1950.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22833353

We should ask AFL what evidence they have for 1882 birthdate - there is a John Allan born to William and Mary Jane (nee Maitland) registered in 1882 #16578 [place of birth shown as GOBU] not sure what that abbreviation stands for.
 
the croucher said:
Cannot find anything yet which relates to an accident resulting in loss of an arm.

John married Phoebe Mardell in 1902 according to Vic BDMs, and she died in early June 1950.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22833353

We should ask AFL what evidence they have for 1882 birthdate - there is a John Allan born to William and Mary Jane (nee Maitland) registered in 1882 #16578 [place of birth shown as GOBU] not sure what that abbreviation stands for.
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According to this site it stands for Gobur
http://bdmabbreviations.steveparker.id.au/ Google tells me Gobur is in the 3719 postcode area between Bonnie Doon and Seymour

Google also tells me Emerald Hill was the old name for South Melbourne
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
John Allan played for Collingwood in 1902-1903

australianfootball.com and Collingwood Forever have death of 27 Dec 1933 and CollingwoodForever also names him John W Allan and mentions he later lost an arm in a work accident. Original club: Blenheim (from Port Melbourne area)

Looking on Trove (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203366343) the following death notice seems to be him:
ALLAN.— On the 28th December, (suddenly), at his residence. 134 Evans-street. Port Melbourne, John William ("Son"), the dearly loved husband of Phoebe Allan, and loving father of John, Percival, Harold, Leonard and Edna.

...
His mother Sarah Simmonds died in 1920: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4594837
Also names John William with nickname "Son" - living in Port Melbourne - confirms match between death entry above and newspaper notice
Click to expand...
In 1904 he seems to have gone to Port Melbourne as per this article
This article from 1917 refers to him as the ex Collingwood and Port Melbourne forward
This article refers to "Son" Allan captaining Port Melbourne in 1905
In 1909 he was one of the team trainers http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164950204
In 1916 president of the club http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article91166847

Between all of these it looks pretty likely that the 1933 death is for the footballer and that the 1882 birth is incorrect... still nothing on the arm though
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
In 1904 he seems to have gone to Port Melbourne as per this article
This article from 1917 refers to him as the ex Collingwood and Port Melbourne forward
This article refers to "Son" Allan captaining Port Melbourne in 1905
In 1909 he was one of the team trainers http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164950204
In 1916 president of the club http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article91166847

Between all of these it looks pretty likely that the 1933 death is for the footballer and that the 1882 birth is incorrect... still nothing on the arm though
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Here's the story on the accident; they call him J A Allen, but it's clearly the right person:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165260644 (25 Jan 1919)

It says (I think) "Between 35 and 38 years of age"

Edit: Here's his permit (J. Allan, Collingwood to Port Melbourne):- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10317838 (5 May 1904)
 
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35Daicos said:
Here's the story on the accident; they call him J A Allen, but it's clearly the right person:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165260644 (25 Jan 1919)

It says (I think) "Between 35 and 38 years of age"
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Great find, the ' between 35 and 38'' also links into the idea of the birth date discrepancy. Or maybe not. The date of the article is 1919 so 35 = 1884 and 38 = 1881 hmm
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
and corresponding VIC BDM entry:
Name: Jno Wm Allan
Birth Year: abt 1879
Age: 54
Death Place: North Melbourne, Victoria (note: not sure why this is not Port Melb)
Father's name: Jno Wm Allan
Mother's name: Sarah Simmons
Registration Year: 1933

His mother Sarah Simmonds died in 1920: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4594837
Also names John William with nickname "Son" - living in Port Melbourne - confirms match between death entry above and newspaper notice

VIC BDM has birth entry:
Name: John William Allen
Birth Date: Abt 1879
Birth Place: Emerald Hill, Victoria
Registration Year: 1879
Father: John Allen
Mother: Sarah Simmonds
Registration Number: 22963
Click to expand...
Agnes Allan 1876-
Margaret James 1878-
James Harold Birth note under Simmons - Death entry Harold James 1882 -1926 Death Listed under Simmonds
Francis Alexander 1886-1887
Charles Percival 1887-1888
Charl(otte) Annie 1892 -
Robert Edgar 1897-
John William birth under ALLEN/Simmonds 1879 -1933 under Allan/Simmons

Given the similarities, given the use of Son in both football reports and death reports this has to be the birth year
 
35Daicos said:
Here's the story on the accident; they call him J A Allen, but it's clearly the right person:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165260644 (25 Jan 1919)

It says (I think) "Between 35 and 38 years of age"

Edit: Here's his permit (J. Allan, Collingwood to Port Melbourne):- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10317838 (5 May 1904)
Click to expand...
Surprising the accident report doesn't also mention he was a Collingwood player?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Snidely Whiplash said:
Surprising the accident report doesn't also mention he was a Collingwood player?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
I did think that as well, especially as he was a (Collingwood) Premiership player. Presumably, because that was in a Port Melbourne newspaper (and he lived there and was a well known Pt. Melb. FC personality) they were just worried about "catering to the locals"!
 
Charlie Jenkins, who has been mentioned in recent times in the DOD/DOB thread, is meant to have played the first eight games of 1898 for Fitzroy according to the records. But The Herald says of the Round 5 game against Geelong: "They play the same team as that which beat Melbourne, with the exception of C. Jenkins, who came out of a scrimmage last week with a kicked thigh." https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980603&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (Fri 3 June 1898)

Unfortunately, I haven't found anything in any of the papers that confirms he didn't actually play. I'm hoping something shows up (like a team lineup) one of these days that helps with this one.
 
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