List Mgmt. Carlton's 2018 Draft Thread (cont. in Part 2)

[JustaBattler]

The point you make about leadership as a kid is spot on with Weitering imo.

I don't want Weitering to be a 'leader' in the sense naive people use the term in this forum, Carlton has had a lot of so called 'leaders' and leadership group and all that mumbo jumbo - I want Weitering to continue doing what he has already shown - next to Docherty by far the best defender we have. Hopefully he can overcome the obvious coaching/physical management and development hurdles Carlton throws at all its players.

2019 is a critical year for Bolton and his coaching crew - no excuses for more rabble performances and throwing players under a bus.

 

[HARKER]

Given the state of a developing list, I still believe we have holes to fill. But I do understand the rational regarding one "Walsh", versus say a Smith and Rankine/Rozee/King, personally for our list, I would select the latter

So would I, but just looking at it from another angle.
The main issue with our list as far as we can see, is that it's young.

The holes we may see now, may not be there tomorrow if the likes of Pickett, Lang, Garlett etc step up and then we may think we have the talls covered in the forward half and McKay may choose to lay an egg on all that.

We just can't be sure of what's going to work and what isn't, but if I was forced to nominate a part of the ground I'm most worried about, it would the forward-line

 

[Arr0w]

Why?

Bulldogs won once and missed the finals the next 2 years.
Richmond won last year and missed the grand final this year (the other GF team missed the 8).
I fully expect West Coast not to repeat next year.

Meanwhile those other teams, which you dismiss, had long periods of sustained success in their eras.

I don't get your point, you wish not to have multiple elite midfielders?

I am saying you don't need elite amount of players through the midfield to win flags, it is more about elite teams

As for throwing around the "elite" term, players at least need to have xfactor/point of difference to make them elite

 

[goreds]

So would I, but just looking at it from another angle.
The main issue with our list as far as we can see, is that it's young.

The holes we may see now, may not be there tomorrow if the likes of Pickett, Lang, Garlett etc step up and then we may think we have the talls covered in the forward half and McKay may choose to lay an egg on all that.

We just can't be sure of what's going to work and what isn't, but if I was forced to nominate a part of the ground I'm most worried about, it would the forward-line

Agree Hark on most points.

I think the only worry we have now is depth, with 3 genuine talls up there, 1 of them a probable superstar, I can’t see defenses covering them to be honest.
Resting mids are the key going forward and I think ours have the smarts and definitely the marking ability to cause major headaches...

Picket is still the unknown, his best is definitely a head of him but how good will that be? My guess, exceptional...

 

[Arr0w]

So would I, but just looking at it from another angle.
The main issue with our list as far as we can see, is that it's young.

The holes we may see now, may not be there tomorrow if the likes of Pickett, Lang, Garlett etc step up and then we may think we have the talls covered in the forward half and McKay may choose to lay an egg on all that.

We just can't be sure of what's going to work and what isn't, but if I was forced to nominate a part of the ground I'm most worried about, it would the forward-line

I am worried about medium to long term, KPD and Ruck options

 

[goreds]

I am worried about medium to long term, KPD and Ruck options

These types seem to pop up in the FA department year on year... Much easier to trade for a defender than any other part of the ground!

 

[dlb99]

I am worried about medium to long term, KPD and Ruck options

Ruck and multiple small/high-pressure forwards (Rioli types) are needs I see upcoming.

KDP is what Weitering naturally is (Barrass role in the WCE GF team). Eventually Marchbank should be the other tall (McGovern style role in WCE GF team). We have M. McGovern to swing forward and back on a needs basis. Collingwood far more depleted with KDP yet still made the GF.

 

[Blue__Balls]

These types seem to pop up in the FA department year on year... Much easier to trade for a defender than any other part of the ground!

Yep - they're the types that will jump on board a successful side (see: Steven May and Brayden Preuss).

Would love to develop our own, and we may do that with TDK in the ruck, Macreadie down back, and BSOS a possible wild card. But they're a hit or miss prospect, so if those options don't pan out it just means we hit the market when we're playing finals.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I am saying you don't need elite amount of players through the midfield to win flags, it is more about elite teams

As for throwing around the "elite" term, players at least need to have xfactor/point of difference to make them elite

Exactly, West Coast played 6 forwards in their side. With Collingwood I know people say players like Degoey and Stephenson can run through the midfield but they didn't because they were much more important forward.
How many times did Butler, Castagna, Townsend, Riewoldt and Rioli run through the midfield?
You look at the Hawthorn 3 peat sides and they had 5,4 and 4 forwards who have won AA honours. That was more of an advantage they had over the opposition than their midfield ever was.
For me we have plenty of holes but our forward line needs the most work.

 

[Kreuz Control]

Was looking through some Walsh footage earlier and something that stood out to me was his reaction time, and even more so his recovery time within a contest.
To me it seemed when he lost his footing, the ball bounced the wrong way, he was outbodied or something else negatively for that matter, he was by far the quickest to recover in the contest and win it or at least impact it.

 

[HARKER]

Yep - they're the types that will jump on board a successful side (see: Steven May and Brayden Preuss).

Would love to develop our own, and we may do that with TDK in the ruck, Macreadie down back, and BSOS a possible wild card. But they're a hit or miss prospect, so if those options don't pan out it just means we hit the market when we're playing finals.

That's it and which is why I'd sooner not trade next years first for a 1st year player now.
Frankly, unless there's something SOS thinks may be amazing for a let's say pick #12 (because that's where I feel some may prick their ears up for our first next year, as it won't be a premium anything before 10, unless GC wanted to double up with tope ten players next year again.)

We didn't get Shiel and now we wait and see how our list develops next year, before trying to shoot any more targets now.
Would still much sooner leave next years pick open for a quality senior player, but that may also change. Leave options open in other words.

 

[Arr0w]

This discussion has evolved somewhat, which stemmed from a suggestion that CG should/could trade picks 3 & 6 for pick 1. Personally I would take that deal in a heartbeat, but I doubt that GC would consider it as it is so heavily bias in our favour

These types seem to pop up in the FA department year on year... Much easier to trade for a defender than any other part of the ground!

I agree in part, but that depends on the quality you are targeting. Not many FA KPD in recent times that have become available and clubs are changing strategies, willing to maximise their return by willing to trade players a year or more prior. Players such as Wingard, Shiel, Neale, May

Ruck and multiple small/high-pressure forwards (Rioli types) are needs I see upcoming.

KDP is what Weitering naturally is (Barrass role in the WCE GF team). Eventually Marchbank should be the other tall (McGovern style role in WCE GF team). We have M. McGovern to swing forward and back on a needs basis. Collingwood far more depleted with KDP yet still made the GF.

Forgetting Schofield? I rate Marchbank as a great 3rd tall intercept option, not KPD. With Jones being 28 and a limited player, only Weitering and Macreadie are genuine KPD. If we experience 2 injuries in that area, we are in deep trouble

Personally I wouldn't target small forwards only, I prefer to target players such as Fisher, SPS, Caddy, Martin types that can do both. Versatility is what will continue to set sides apart in the future

Exactly, West Coast played 6 forwards in their side. With Collingwood I know people say players like Degoey and Stephenson can run through the midfield but they didn't because they were much more important forward.
How many times did Butler, Castagna, Townsend, Riewoldt and Rioli run through the midfield?
You look at the Hawthorn 3 peat sides and they had 5,4 and 4 forwards who have won AA honours. That was more of an advantage they had over the opposition than their midfield ever was.
For me we have plenty of holes but our forward line needs the most work.

WC are a very well balanced squad. They have won more games in the last 4 years, than any other side.

Guys like Ryan, Rioli, Venebles, Cripps, Yeo, Sheed, all being able to rotating through the middle and still having 3 tall forward marking options.

 

[HARKER]

WC are a very well balanced squad. They have won more games in the last 4 years, than any other side.

Guys like Ryan, Rioli, Venebles, Cripps, Yeo, Sheed, all being able to rotating through the middle and still having 3 tall forward marking options.

Who's the third tall forward? I gather you're talking about 196cm Kennedy, 191cm Darling and ............. ?
A ruck-man maybe? Kennedy is 31 and he may just start slowing down, giving opportunity to Brander, going forward.

Things can and likely will change, but there seems to be a move away from the land of the giants.....for now, at least.

 

[Blue__Balls]

That's it and which is why I'd sooner not trade next years first for a 1st year player now.
Frankly, unless there's something SOS thinks may be amazing for a let's say pick #12 (because that's where I feel some may prick their ears up for our first next year, as it won't be a premium anything before 10, unless GC wanted to double up with tope ten players next year again.)

We didn't get Shiel and now we wait and see how our list develops this year, before trying to shoot any more targets now.
Would still much sooner leave next years pick open for a quality senior player, but that may also change. Leave options open in other words.

Sounds right.

Someone special would have to slide a bit, and if they do, why does a club give them up?

The best offer I could see coming is Port's Pick 10, should the best of the SA lads be off the table by that stage.

Walsh, Luko, Rankine, King, Rozee, Smith, King, Hately, Blakey (Academy), Caldwell....

Do Port like Clark here? Because their next local preferences (McLennan and Valente) are probably gettable at 15.

But then, is Clark worth losing our first next year?

 

[Arr0w]

Who's the third tall forward? I gather you're talking about 196cm Kennedy, 191cm Darling and ............. ?
A ruck-man maybe? Kennedy is 31 and he may just start slowing down, giving opportunity to Brander, going forward.

Things can and likely will change, but there seems to be a move away from the land of the giants.....for now, at least.

Moving away?

Vardy/Lycett(now Hickey)
Kennedy
Darling

While they have Allen x2, Brander, Waterman

Pies then realise the importance and re-sign Moore, when previously they were considering trading him.

Tall forward lines will always buck a fad(Tigers), they have just evolved into being more agile

 

[katmanblue]

Cant trade our future first as we traded our future second for Setterfield. We can only trade our 2019 first round pick in 2019.

We can ask the question. There are always exceptions when AFL is concerned.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[dlb99]

6-6-6 should, slightly, help tall forwards.

I still think interchange reduction could also be a reality if congestion does not reduce as the AFL likes; if so talls will be gain further prominence.

Ruck aside, I think we are ok with talls on our list. Goal kicking mid/small (Rioli/Betts style) who can apply pressure in the front half is a glaring hole.

 

[HARKER]

Moving away?

Vardy/Lycett(now Hickey)
Kennedy
Darling

While they have Allen x2, Brander, Waterman

Pies then realise the importance and re-sign Moore, when previously they were considering trading him.

Tall forward lines will always buck a fad(Tigers), they have just evolved into being more agile

Resting ruck-men more the case than forwards, aren't they?
Including Natanui, they average .7 goals a game which may not be bad, but they don't really form what we'd call a three tall set-up.
Kreuzer averages a little less but even if he did clock it up to .7, I'm not sure I'd be calling part of the forward set-up.

Darling at 191 is quite mobile and not sure whether I'd call him a tall any more than I would call a 191cm Stringer or De Goey, but maybe some do and it then slots neatly into a three-tall forward line structure. Anyway, we've veered way off track in a draft thread.

 

[BlueView]

Ruck aside, I think we are ok with talls on our list. Goal kicking mid/small (Rioli/Betts style) who can apply pressure in the front half is a glaring hole.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t mind playing Thomas in that role his pace certainly isn’t what it once was but i think he’d do an adequate job of helping lock it in our forward 50 and maybe a few goals

 

[footyfan1978]

So Thomas playing to his 40th birthday and we no longer need to draft small forwards ?

 

[footyfan1978]

6-6-6 should, slightly, help tall forwards.

I still think interchange reduction could also be a reality if congestion does not reduce as the AFL likes

Until the interchange mess is fixed congestion will still be a problem for spectacle of the game.

6-6-6 will just mean a few more goals come from centre clearances but no reason still won't see 36 players in one part of ground that become the norm for big chunks of games since interchange mess was allowed to happen.

 

[Coona Blues]

Moving away?

Vardy/Lycett(now Hickey)
Kennedy
Darling

While they have Allen x2, Brander, Waterman

Pies then realise the importance and re-sign Moore, when previously they were considering trading him.

Tall forward lines will always buck a fad(Tigers), they have just evolved into being more agile

Yep, I am waiting for the squawks on here as TDK and Macreadie develop, while JSOS finds his "legs"
B: Docherty Weitering Macreadie
HB: Simpson Marchbank Plowman
C: C.Curnow Cripps O'Brien
HF: McGovern DeKoning Petrevski-Seton
F: Fasolo McKay Fisher
R: Kreuzer Kennedy Dow
Interchange/In The Mix: Setterfield Murphy E.Curnow Williamson
Silvagni Pickett Newman Thomas Jones
Polson Lang Garlett Cuningham

Wouldn't see that every week, but certainly a possibility (didn't like leaving Newman out of 22, but love
Willo, and to leave Simmo out would not be well received)

 

[Windhover]

6-6-6 should, slightly, help tall forwards.

I still think interchange reduction could also be a reality if congestion does not reduce as the AFL likes; if so talls will be gain further prominence.

Ruck aside, I think we are ok with talls on our list. Goal kicking mid/small (Rioli/Betts style) who can apply pressure in the front half is a glaring hole.

Agree with your assessment that we are ok for talls, rucks aside.

At this stage of the rebuild we have thus far only recruited TDK and Harry as ruck-sized players and clearly hope for them to be KPFs. Phillips, Kruze and Lobbe with injuries etc are merely place-holders against the best ruckmen, although plenty of flags have been won with worse ruckmen. IMO the modern day ruckman is ideally 203 cm as a minimum so at some stage we will need to recruit a dedicated ruckman, preferably by trading since they take so long to develop.

We have Charlie and Kerr as developing KPFs and Caz, despite the limitations is IMO still an AFL quality player.

As for defenders, Jones (198cm), Macreadie (196 cm), Weiters (195 cm), Marchbank (193 cm) and Plowman stack up ok against the current flag-favs defenders in Astbury (195), Rance (194), Grimes (193), Garthwaite (192) and Broad (192) - and the tigers like us don't have anything much after this top 5 kpds.

Where I don't agree with you is with the goal kicking mid/small forward "glaring hole". IMO with Pickett, Garlett, Fasolo and Lebois to be aided by our resting mids (of which more below) we do not need to invest in more team places for small forwards. If they are not good enough that is another matter but I would not weight the list more than that on small forwards.

Of course it is true are scoring has been deplorable. IMO, the fault has been all over the field with a young (and injured) list but particularly in the midfield. This is not surprising. The rebuilding strategy was to fix up the mids last. It is no secret we are likely to draft Walsh this year to go with Dow and LOB to give us 3 top ten mid picks. Once these players mature, plus Fisher, Kennedy, Setterfield and SPS, our currently paper-thin midfield of Cripps, Ed and Murphy (ten in total) will start to look much more powerful.

By comparison the Collingwood mids (often regarded as the strongest and deepest) of Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Beams, Treloar, Adams, Greenwood, Varcoe, Wells, Phillips and De Goey (10 in total) are all more or less fully developed. Except for Pendlebury each of those players took time to mature. When they did they almost pinched a flag without a backline.

Although our rebuild has (rightly imo) started with KPDs and KPFs, it will not be until our mids develop that we will really know how good our backs and forwards can really be. With 7 of our 10 mids 3rd year players or older it should be exciting to watch. But just in case, lets recruit more mids.

 

[murphster]

We trade our future 1st and 3rd as we have 2 future 3rd rounders, for a top 6 pick 2018 and a future 2nd.

Gold Coast don't have a future 2nd either.

 

[BlueView]

So Thomas playing to his 40th birthday and we no longer need to draft small forwards ?

Of course you do but he’s the obvious choice for me in the interim (next year) if Fasolo comes up short it could be a real problem