Society/Culture Christchurch Mosque mass shooting

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Scotland said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population

Wiki, your favourite.

WWII ended 74 years ago. So according to your numbers on average NZ have settled fewer than 500 people per year since.

Meanwhile other countries actually take in meaningful numbers. As I said, moral posturing. I'd love to see the reaction of people on here if Australia slashed refugee intake and immigration from the Middle East to NZ levels, even per capita.
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You dont retain refugee status for life. Most of the refugees from a few years ago would be permanent residents now or NZ citizens.

Look at Australias numbers in your own link. Unless we deported 8000 refugees between 2015 and 2016 how do you account for the 8000 fewer refugees living in Oz between those two years?
 

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Scotland said:
You're just being obtuse.

NZ take in very few refugees and very few migrants from the Middle East in general yet their leader sees fit to take the moral high ground.
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Im not being obtuse. You asked a question, and I gave you a direct answer of 'Yes'.

And I agree, NZ dos take in a low percentage of Refugees compared to many other countries.

Im not sure about low numbers of 'middle eastern migrants' generally though. Do you have figures for that?
 
Well they have an Islamic population of about 50,000, including Fijian and Malaysian migrants. Doesn't leave a lot left over for the region where most Muslims live. Sydney has 4 or 5 times that in a comparable total population in one city.

Middle East and Africa combined is about 100,000 with South Africa accounting for over half of that.

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I don't think it's a particularly controversial point. People fawn over how compassionate and welcoming NZ and their PM are, but the reality is that they talk a big game and that's about it. Don't get me wrong if ScoMo was just less of a dick in general and cut our immigration rate in half (+6m people since 2000, too fast - not all immigrants obviously) he'd get a pat on the back from me but people should look at things with two eyes open. If being friendly and welcoming is the benchmark of multiculturalism then I implore people to try and move to Japan.
 
Andrew Bolt Asks ‘Who Could Blame Anti-Muslim Vigilantes?’
By Michael Brull on July 18, 2016 New Matilda

Andrew Bolt has long had a problem with Muslims and Islam, but his latest column is inflammatory to the point that it seems dangerous.

Even by his standards, it is shocking. In it, he argues that Islam is a “warlike religion that licenses our destruction”, predicts a “Right-wing backlash” where vigilantes “defend themselves” by taking up arms, and innocent Muslims get hurt. But “Who could blame them”? As he predicts this “civil war”, he urges us to stop “demonising” those “with the courage to warn of the dangers, even of a Pauline Hanson.” Instead, “no more multiculturalism”, and “no more mass immigration from the Muslim world.”

Bolt begins by commenting on the attack in France, arguing that “We in the West cannot live like this”. Readers can guess who in the West is included in this we, and who is not. Bolt puts the blame for this and previous attacks by jihadi terrorists on Islam, writing that “we” can’t “keep letting in carriers of a faith whose most dogmatic believers wish to destroy us. What madness is this ‘tolerance’ of ours that we deem it rude to even discuss the warlike religion that licenses our destruction and demands an end to our most cherished liberties?”

Let me stress that. Islam is a “warlike religion”, which “licenses our destruction”, and “demands an end to our most cherished liberties”.

He then outlines what he thinks is a natural – and understandable – response: “civil war”.

“And if our politicians will not speak frankly and protect us from Islam, watch out for a civil war. A frightened public will not put up with this for much longer and will defend themselves. Here, yes, that ugly day has not dawned and let us pray it never does. But in France, God knows how soon non-Muslim vigilantes will themselves take up arms.

Who could blame them, after the murderous attacks by Islamists on a Jewish kindergarten, on a satirical magazine that mocked Islam, on a kosher supermarket, on a policeman and his wife at home and, last year, on Paris in a full-on military assault that killed 130 people. (Emphasis added).”

Who could blame them? It’s just self-defence.

Bolt writes that the French chief of the Directorate General of Internal Security had said that before this attack, one more could lead to “a huge Right-wing backlash”. Is Bolt worried about the huge backlash? Should we do something to prevent it? Bolt explains that:

“It is easy to demonise — and reasonable to fear — the rise of Right-wing resistance to Islamism. Innocents, particularly Muslims, could get hurt. But innocent people, mostly Christians and other non-Muslims, are right now being murdered, and many citizens are wondering whether their politicians either have the wit to understand the threat or the guts to protect us from it.”

Who is the “Right-wing resistance” he is thinking of? He doesn’t say. He recognises innocent people, “particularly Muslims”, could get hurt. That might give you an idea of what that “Right-wing resistance” might look like. That “huge Right-wing backlash” means non-Muslim vigilantes taking up arms, because they “will not put up with this for much longer”. Innocent Muslims could get hurt. What kind of scenes does that make you envision?

Should we try to prevent that happening? Well, innocent non-Muslims “are right now being murdered”. “Who could blame them” if they did take up arms? After all, a certain warlike religion licenses our destruction.

Bolt’s conclusion is less extreme than the rest of his article. He urges “No more demonising of those who at least have the courage to warn of the dangers, even of a Pauline Hanson. No more toleration of hate preachers. No more multiculturalism, and no more mass immigration from the Muslim world.”

When Bolt says “No more demonising”, presumably he also has in mind others who “warn us of the dangers” of Islam and Muslims. Presumably, they are also to be spared criticism.

Meet The Right-Wing Resistance Who Might Take Up Arms

To get a sense of how insane and inflammatory Bolt’s article is, meet the kind of vigilante who might take up arms against Muslims. On Friday night, the Islamophobia Register posted the status of a man on Facebook. It was taken down, and the man’s page was briefly suspended, before his Facebook was reinstated with one status removed.

In two statuses, made 10 hours apart, the man from Western Australia threatened to murder Muslims, and urged others to murder them too. In the second one, he wrote “You see a Muslim You ******* Kill the Vermin Were (sic) It Stands.” His status had 10 likes. The first one concluded “I don’t know about you but I’m happy to put a bullet in any Muslims (sic) Head.” It had 22 likes. It was taken down. The other was not.

His first status began “I’m Making This Public and Not just to Friends.” Presumably, current events had emboldened him to make his views public for the world to see.

What might those events have been? He wrote “Michael (sic) Bolt has received Death Threats and so has Pauline Hanson. Time to Put the Shoe On the Other Foot. Time We Put a Price On These Muslim Vermin’s Heads.” Why Bolt and Hanson? Well, he writes that “It’s come to my attention that it’s ok for Muslim Hate Preachers to have their say. But as soon as Australians Have Their Say About Muslims. They are labelled Racists.”

As we’ve seen, Bolt too uses the language of “hate preachers”. In his inflammatory and sympathetic interview with Pauline Hanson, Bolt made a similar point about “hate preachers” being tolerated, while people like Hanson were criticised as racist. In an editorial on his TV show, Bolt referred to people being sick and tired of people on the left using force to stop people from speaking their minds. The footage playing as he said this was of clashes between anti-fascists and the United Patriots Front in Coburg. The tacit sympathy was seemingly with the UPF protesters, supposedly the party who was attacked and silenced.

The “Kill the Vermin” Facebook man also shared on his Facebook a link from the UPF, a pro–Nazi anti-Muslim group. He is a big fan of Pauline Hanson, saying “Onya Senator Pauline Hanson We Love You”, and “The Truth will come from Senator Pauline Hanson’s Mouth”.

Let me underline that: he thinks the truth comes from Pauline Hanson. This is a man who for months has regularly posted updates saying things like “* Islam. Kill Em All”. He has also referred to “Muzzrat hunting”, and talked about disposing of bodies in a wood chipper. Bolt thinks we should be less critical of Hanson.

In one discussion, the Facebook man said he sent a death threat to a Muslim. His friend advised him to be “careful with death threats”. He replies “Yeah I know. I’ve already been busted for one I did. I got a good behaviour bond for 2 years and a fine.” He then said “It’s been 7 years since I’ve been arrested. Not stupid to get caught”.

The fact that he got Bolt’s first name wrong suggests he is not Bolt’s most loyal reader. There are differences between them. Bolt doesn’t call for Muslims to be murdered, or call Muslims Muzzrats. They just both happen to think that people should stop trying to silence Hanson by calling her racist. The Facebook man wants to hunt Muslims, perhaps with his sharp blades. Bolt merely predicts something like that happening – a huge right wing backlash against Muslims, non-Muslim vigilantes taking up arms – which he identifies as “resistance”, the “frightened public” deciding to “defend themselves. And innocent people would get hurt, “particularly Muslims”. But who could blame them? After all, we keep letting in carriers of a warlike religion that licenses our destruction.

Perhaps the police will visit the man from Western Australia, and discuss his constant calls for the mass murder of Muslims. Certainly, if he was Muslim, he would be facing a very long stint in prison. Yet Bolt, with an estimated audience of over a million readers every week at the Herald Sun, will continue on his merry way. After all, he didn’t call for Muslims to murdered by right-wing vigilantes. He just thinks it would make sense if the frightened public defends itself from the warlike religion that licenses our destruction.

Brull wrote this on the 18th of July 2016. Here we are in March of 2019, after some emboldened, right wing knuckledrager has murdered 50 people in Christchurch and destroyed their families and loved one and all some people can do, is blame the victims and immigration.

The disgusting bastards who have been coercing the racists and simpletons to "stand up for our culcha", (whatever that means), for a decade and more, these bastards are exploiting this barbarous act to remain relevant. Evil bastards like Bolt, Panihi, Murray, Chris Kenny, Sheridan, Albrechtson etc and the chief Grand Wizard, Scott Morrison who has no shame in lying and exploiting anything and everything so he can be re-elected and can continue on with his missionary work, that is, devout adherence to the Prosperity Gospels.
 
Craven Morehead said:
I thought that quoting entire articles was against BF rules?
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I didn't know that. I apologise if that is the case and I will supply the link instead.

https://newmatilda.com/2016/07/18/andrew-bolt-asks-who-could-blame-anti-muslim-vigilantes/

Brull wrote this on the 18th of July 2016. Here we are in March of 2019, after some emboldened, right wing knuckledrager has murdered 50 people in Christchurch and destroyed their families and loved one and all some people can do, is blame the victims and immigration.

The disgusting bastards who have been coercing the racists and simpletons to "stand up for our culcha", (whatever that means), for a decade and more, these bastards are exploiting this barbarous act to remain relevant. Evil bastards like Bolt, Panihi, Murray, Chris Kenny, Sheridan, Albrechtson etc and the chief Grand Wizard, Scott Morrison who has no shame in lying and exploiting anything and everything so he can be re-elected and can continue on with his missionary work, that is, devout adherence to the Prosperity Gospels.
 
Northalives said:
Brull wrote this on the 18th of July 2016. Here we are in March of 2019, after some emboldened, right wing knuckledrager has murdered 50 people in Christchurch and destroyed their families and loved one and all some people can do, is blame the victims and immigration.
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18/7/2016 is two days after the Bastille Day Nice terror attack. Between then and the Christchurch attack over 100 people died in the West alone from Islamist terror attacks and many more in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

The events of Christchurch were horrific but it's not like 'some emboldened, right wing knuckledragger' (good phrasing) sat there stewing in a hate filled vacuum for 3 years. There's a lot of horrible s**t going on in the world.
 
Scotland said:
18/7/2016 is two days after the Bastille Day Nice terror attack. Between then and the Christchurch attack over 100 people died in the West alone from Islamist terror attacks and many more in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

The events of Christchurch were horrific but it's not like 'some emboldened, right wing knuckledragger' (good phrasing) sat there stewing in a hate filled vacuum for 3 years. There's a lot of horrible s**t going on in the world.
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Are you trying to defend this murderer boyio and looking for angles to excuse this horrible and despicable act as the fault of the victims? Bolt, Morrison and the dogwhistlers in the LNP and the right wing extremist press have been pushing the line that Islam and Muslims in Australia are a threat and that "something should be done about it" and in Bolt's case, he has been "hinting" at "civil war" for a decade and yes, Bolt's article was a couple of days after the French atrocity and boy, was he happy outraged at what had happened so he could keep his racist and inflammatory articles coming.

One only has to look at Bolt's sheer delight at being able to attack Islam immediately after Breivik's Norwegian massacres in 2011but then realised that it wasn't a Muslim wiping out good christian folk, it was a John Howard lover wiping out "leftists" so Bolt erased his bile and slithered back into the sewer where all his friends, associates and apologists live.
 

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It was an article with no subtlety, only bile. Australian columnist Andrew Bolt, one of the country’s most prominent right-wing voices and a key employee in Rupert Murdoch’s media empire, published a column last August with the headline “The Foreign Invasion.” In it, he argued that “immigration is becoming colonisation, turning this country from a home into a hotel.” Bolt’s column was syndicated in many newspapers throughout Australia; accompanying it was a cartoon with racist caricatures of Asians, Muslims, and other new arrivals.

The racism was blunt, and Bolt’s facts were wildly incorrect—yet it was just one of many examples of the mainstreaming of hate that has become routine in Australia
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Revulsion over the Christchurch massacre was widespread in Australia, but I remain unconvinced that the country’s major media companies have any real interest in taking responsibility for their platforming of hate. It will be much easier to shed faux tears and then quickly get back to demanding that Australian Muslims show loyalty to their country (after the Christchurch killings, Murdoch tabloids found a way to try to humanize the murderer). Conservative media and their political mates have fanned the flames of racism for years, so don’t expect them to become self-reflective now. Eradicating this poison will require a sustained grassroots effort.
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ANTONY LOEWENSTEIN
 
Northalives said:
I was just asking.
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No ,you weren't.
You were using deliberately inflammatory and overly hyperbolic language to describe a situation you clearly have very little knowledge of or insight into. As an example of this, you referred to Anders Brevik as being a "John Howard Lover" which does little more than to beg the question as to whether or not you even know in which country the Brevik massacre occurred.

Overall, your post read a little like a religious tract from the seventies, albeit missing the obligatory cartoons.
So, tell me. If you were "just asking", what was the question?
 
AM said:
ANTONY LOEWENSTEIN
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At the very least, it will require an understanding of what racism actually is.

The reason a "sustained grassroots effort" to eradicate racism in Australia will not prevent further attacks on minorities is that those attacks have very little to do with racism to begin with. But that's not a new point, is it? It's one that has been made over, and over, and over... with no result.

Do you know why?
 
Scotland said:
Well they have an Islamic population of about 50,000, including Fijian and Malaysian migrants. Doesn't leave a lot left over for the region where most Muslims live. Sydney has 4 or 5 times that in a comparable total population in one city.

Middle East and Africa combined is about 100,000 with South Africa accounting for over half of that.

birthplace.gif

I don't think it's a particularly controversial point. People fawn over how compassionate and welcoming NZ and their PM are, but the reality is that they talk a big game and that's about it. Don't get me wrong if ScoMo was just less of a dick in general and cut our immigration rate in half (+6m people since 2000, too fast - not all immigrants obviously) he'd get a pat on the back from me but people should look at things with two eyes open. If being friendly and welcoming is the benchmark of multiculturalism then I implore people to try and move to Japan.
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I am not sure what the graph proves. There are less from Australia.
NZ Pop - about 5M, Aust Pop - about 25M. NSW about 7M, what are you comparing?
 
Fenrys_Wolf said:
No ,you weren't.
You were using deliberately inflammatory and overly hyperbolic language to describe a situation you clearly have very little knowledge of or insight into. As an example of this, you referred to Anders Brevik as being a "John Howard Lover" which does little more than to beg the question as to whether or not you even know in which country the Brevik massacre occurred.

Overall, your post read a little like a religious tract from the seventies, albeit missing the obligatory cartoons.
So, tell me. If you were "just asking", what was the question?
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Don't be foolish. Breivik said in his "manifesto" that he admired John Howard and the question to the other fellow was did he think that the victims of the New Zealand massacres were to blame for being massacred. His attempt to "normalise" what happened in New Zealand by bringing a massacre "league table" into the conversation makes one wonder whether he is like the Bolts of this world who look to deflect from what happened and point fingers at others.
 
Maggie5 said:
I am not sure what the graph proves. There are less from Australia.
NZ Pop - about 5M, Aust Pop - about 25M. NSW about 7M, what are you comparing?
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There is free movement between Australia and NZ. An arrangement that both countries only have with each other. Not really relevant to any other migrant group.

It's pretty straightforward. NZ has a very small Muslim population both absolute and per capita. If they had a 5-10% Muslim population like France, Belgium, UK, Germany etc. they would face the same issues those nations do. NZ isn't some special utopia where everyone gets along, they maintain a balance and it works. If Australia did that people would jump and and down and scream White Australia 2.0.
 
Scotland said:
There is free movement between Australia and NZ. An arrangement that both countries only have with each other. Not really relevant to any other migrant group.

It's pretty straightforward. NZ has a very small Muslim population both absolute and per capita. If they had a 5-10% Muslim population like France, Belgium, UK, Germany etc. they would face the same issues those nations do. NZ isn't some special utopia where everyone gets along, they maintain a balance and it works. If Australia did that people would jump and and down and scream White Australia 2.0.
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My point was really about population and that NZ has rather a small population compared to those countries you mention.

Also those figures are from 2013, do you think a lot has changed since then?

I am also not convinced that they planned it so that only a relatively small number of Muslims are allowed in the country.
 
Scotland said:
There is free movement between Australia and NZ. An arrangement that both countries only have with each other. Not really relevant to any other migrant group.

It's pretty straightforward. NZ has a very small Muslim population both absolute and per capita. If they had a 5-10% Muslim population like France, Belgium, UK, Germany etc. they would face the same issues those nations do. NZ isn't some special utopia where everyone gets along, they maintain a balance and it works. If Australia did that people would jump and and down and scream White Australia 2.0.
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I've always maintained that as a country, it's always been easier for New Zealand to take the moral high ground on issues because if it causes their economy to tank, her citizens just move to Australia en masse.
 
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