Bluemour Discussion Thread XVI - Facts Not Welcome

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Not one player has been gifted games.
There was no choice but to play them all. Thats what the word rebuild brings with it.
The list was threadbare and looking like a highschool classroom/hospital ward for two years.
It's therefore tremendous to now have a diffeent situation where young players don't have to be thrown to the wolves.

You can’t tell me Dow was a better footballer than Kerridge last year, but it’s more about playing them in positions what they are ready for which has been clear that we hadn’t been doing.

 

[Blue and Blue]

You can’t tell me Dow was a better footballer than Kerridge last year, but it’s more about playing them in positions what they are ready for which has been clear that we hadn’t been doing.

I will say that Dow was better in the context of rebuild and develop. And thats the whole point.
This term gifted games is very onerous I find.

 

[Doro]

Not one player has been gifted games.
There was no choice but to play them all. Thats what the word rebuild brings with it.
The list was threadbare and looking like a highschool classroom/hospital ward for two years.
It's therefore tremendous to now have a diffeent situation where young players don't have to be thrown to the wolves.

That was the tricky part of rebuilding from our list position in 2015. Getting quality mature bodies without reducing the spend on quality youth. We didn't end up getting much more than short term servicemen and SOS copped it for the GWS link. It's looking much healthier now though.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I will say that Dow was better in the context of rebuild and develop. And thats the whole point.
This term gifted games is very onerous I find.

I’m not denying that but when you are giving lesser players games they are getting gifted games not earning them. I’m not so much against that but than don’t put them in a position where they can’t compete and has a detrimental effect on the rest of the side.

 

[Blue and Blue]

I’m not denying that but when you are giving lesser players games they are getting gifted games not earning them. I’m not so much against that but than don’t put them in a position where they can’t compete and has a detrimental effect on the rest of the side.

In normal circumstances I agree. But it certainly hasn't been normal and we can say that they earned games based on future talent albeit raw and fragile, within the context of the full rebuild. And of course that injury list last year gave even less choice.
It was always about getting games in the kids fast.
I recall Pagan saying the same thing way back when we had to just play the kids.

 

[gbatman]

I'm all for giving young players a go but what we have had to do over the years, play young players because they are highly rated young players, not because they are performing and earning a game, it's not good. It doesn't develop players properly, it doesn't develop a hard competitive edge if they don't have to work hard, play well and earn their spots.

Play players based on how they are playing, make your first round draft picks play a bit in the VFL if they aren't quite up to the level. We've had plenty who haven't been up to the level who have just kept getting games.

It's simple, play your best players. Something I hope we start seeing at Carlton. If someone like Stocker can't play to the level of the older senior players then he plays VFL until his form gets there.

It's how we have developed someone like O'Brien and Silvagni. It's why I have not been happy with how we have developed Dow. Finally took us until now to develop McGovern with a hard line.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Daisy is playing so well that my dad accidentally cheered for him. Only the second ex-Collingwood player Papa H has ever cheered for.

First was obviously Mick McGuane.

 

[Arr0w]

First was obviously Mick McGuane.

Scotland?

 

[Kramer1]

Daisy contract is a no brainer I would have thought. Valuable veteran presence...continues to take the game on when things are beginning to fray a bit, which is of enormous value to a young list...first half against Melbourne case in point.

That ankle notwithstanding, he has the rangy frame that could hold up well for two or three more seasons yet.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Peter McKenna.........

 

[Kramer1]

First was obviously Mick McGuane.

Scotland?

Probably...has a head like a dropped haggis.

 

[Coops93]

I'm glad Daisy is being extended. I have to say I feel comfortable late in games when he's on the field, I want the ball in his hands and him behind the ball. I think in those situations he's the most composed player on the team. The guys knows how to win. As much as I love Simmo he doesn't quite have the same late game composure (not knocking him, it's just what happens when you play in a team that perpetually loses. You just don't know how to finish a win off like a premiership player does). I remember after he kicked he goal he was sprinting to the bench late in the game and I was yelling at the screen to keep him on, we need him! Anyway, definitely the right choice to keep him on another year.

It's not that difficult to work out where Stocker should play if Simmo, Doc, Willo and Thomas are all around next year, maybe the position he was drafted in? Midfield. His issue was tank, well another off-season and I think he'll be fairly close.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Scotland?

Nah, Hotton or Cam Cloke

 

[Weiterbot23]

What is the go with Cripps foot?

We need him at 100% for the rest of the year to nab some wins and get him the Brownlow

 

[Doro]

What is the go with Cripps foot?

We need him at 100% for the rest of the year to nab some wins and get him the Brownlow

It's the back end of the season and he smashes in to more contests than anyone in the game. He's gonna be like this every year.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Daisy contract is a no brainer I would have thought. Valuable veteran presence...continues to take the game on when things are beginning to fray a bit, which is of enormous value to a young list...first half against Melbourne case in point.

That ankle notwithstanding, he has the rangy frame that could hold up well for two or three more seasons yet.

The wiry guys like Tuck, KB, Fletcher, Simmo etc seem to have greater longevity than other players so I reckon another year at least for Daisy is spot on

 

[Curnivore]

So Daisy is getting a contract. Goes against some inside word but I think it is probably deserved

Was a silly rumor anyway. No way a team with no coach would be making such calls

 

[Juddrockz]

if daisy and simmo go another year...where does stocker play?

Add Docherty to that list coming back aswell. Finally we have some depth

 

[gbatman]

On a guy like Stocker, you develop him as a midfielder who can play in another position. Next year play him in the VFL with time either up forward (pocket or high half forward) and half back. Multi Positional players have a greater chance of playing football, particularly if they are on the fringes. If Stocker becomes someone who can come in for a mid or a defender etc then his chances of playing seniors improve and if he develops as a genuine multi-positional player then he becomes a better and more valuable player.

He's someone I expect to play a handful of games next season and to cement his spot in the side by 2021 so let's not get ahead of ourselves. Simpson, Thomas, Murphy, Kreuzer all playing again next season, Docherty coming back and most of them playing the following season would be huge for us, we have a bit of a problem looming over our heads with the ages of most of those players and the possibility of them retiring around the same time and not being able to replace them with players as good or better.

No more than one retirement per season would be a great result.

Just play the young players where they are good enough at that time to play. We've had a few guys playing games purely because of where they are rated and not how they have been performing. Also a great reason to have some depth and what guys like Deluca and Gibbons have brought, keeping young mediocre players in the seconds is important for their development. Stocker will play VFL next season in a number of positions and if a spot in one of those positions opens up and he's playing that role to a good level he will get a crack and a chance to keep his spot in the team.

He'll be a good player but plenty of development is ahead of him.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Scotland?

Mckenna?

 

[Matty411]

On a guy like Stocker, you develop him as a midfielder who can play in another position. Next year play him in the VFL with time either up forward (pocket or high half forward) and half back. Multi Positional players have a greater chance of playing football, particularly if they are on the fringes. If Stocker becomes someone who can come in for a mid or a defender etc then his chances of playing seniors improve and if he develops as a genuine multi-positional player then he becomes a better and more valuable player.

He's someone I expect to play a handful of games next season and to cement his spot in the side by 2021 so let's not get ahead of ourselves. Simpson, Thomas, Murphy, Kreuzer all playing again next season, Docherty coming back and most of them playing the following season would be huge for us, we have a bit of a problem looming over our heads with the ages of most of those players and the possibility of them retiring around the same time and not being able to replace them with players as good or better.

No more than one retirement per season would be a great result.

Just play the young players where they are good enough at that time to play. We've had a few guys playing games purely because of where they are rated and not how they have been performing. Also a great reason to have some depth and what guys like Deluca and Gibbons have brought, keeping young mediocre players in the seconds is important for their development. Stocker will play VFL next season in a number of positions and if a spot in one of those positions opens up and he's playing that role to a good level he will get a crack and a chance to keep his spot in the team.

He'll be a good player but plenty of development is ahead of him.

Key thing with Stock is that his attitude and commitment to his body/the physical aspect is right up there. Another preseason or two building his tank and learning a few roles, and he'll be best 22.

 

[Bostonian]

Often not.

In the case of The Elliot’s it would appear - yes.

So if he's like his dad he'll get us a flag then.

Interesting.

 

[Bostonian]

LOB running is ON FIRE. Can not wait to see him on the MCG against Crows this week.

Fingers crossed he keeps the ball inside the white lines more this weekend than outside of them.

 

[Bostonian]

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate

Thanks Rik...

 

[gbatman]

Key thing with Stock is that his attitude and commitment to his body/the physical aspect is right up there. Another preseason or two building his tank and learning a few roles, and he'll be best 22.

Yes I think so. Important that he has a good preseason this year and the next and learns multiple roles. We want to add midfielders to the team and build a strong midfield but to get the right number in, some of them need to be able to play other positions. Don't want players resting forward or back if they can't play there. If we develop Stocker into a midfielder who can rest in other positions or play them full time and play there well he will be so much more valuable to us long term and that can be done either in the VFL or AFL, depending where he is at with his footy. I don't doubt he'll be a good player but good development we can get more out of him.

Build him up, expand his game, he already has the skills and ability to play pretty good footy so we could end up with a pretty good player. Same applies to others like Dow. Needs a lot of development but the foundations are there.