Analysis Is our forward line functioning better without Cox?

[HFF]

As an player we will go past him by the end of next season.

They way the modern game is played, taking 3 marks an game doesn’t constitute to being “important to structure”.

It’s already obvious and stated our ground level game improves immensely with him out of the side and space is created.

He struggles on an lead let alone being pushed under the ball by smaller or shorter opponents.

As I’ve said many times- we hammered Cloke for producing stats better than what Cox looks like at his best and we considered it terrible by Cloke.

When we have so many naturally talented players who can mark in so many various ways such as Elliott, JDG, Stephenson, WHE, Mihocek....it just makes sense that we look to move him out.
It would be perfect for us to boost our draft hand and even create cap space.

 

[foreigner]

As an player we will go past him by the end of next season.

They way the modern game is played, taking 3 marks an game doesn’t constitute to being “important to structure”.

It’s already obvious and stated our ground level game improves immensely with him out of the side and space is created.

He struggles on an lead let alone being pushed under the ball by smaller or shorter opponents.

As I’ve said many times- we hammered Cloke for producing stats better than what Cox looks like at his best and we considered it terrible by Cloke.

When we have so many naturally talented players who can mark in so many various ways such as Elliott, JDG, Stephenson, WHE, Mihocek....it just makes sense that we look to move him out.
It would be perfect for us to boost our draft hand and even create cap space.

Interesting use of "an"

 

[DaVe86]

I'd say our forward line is functioning better off the back of a return to some sort of midfield cohesion rather than as a consequence of the inclusion/exclusion of Cox.

It helps when you play Gold Coast, Melbourne and Adelaide in consecutive week, all of whom put next to no pressure on us.

The true test for our forward line is still to come, but it will be aided by the return of De Goey and Stephenson.

 

[HFF]

It helps when you play Gold Coast, Melbourne and Adelaide in consecutive week, all of whom put next to no pressure on us.

The true test for our forward line is still to come, but it will be aided by the return of De Goey and Stephenson.

It does help but Cox hasn’t shot the lights out since that prelim against any opposition.
That now looks like it was just an one off game.

Maybe I have it in for him but I honestly think we are far better off without him.
We look freer, quicker and play as such when moving the ball.

Quick ball movement everyone strives for but it’s no use when Cox can’t get separation on an lead or can’t beat his opponent back to goal in a foot race.
All our other forwards can mark and move in so many different ways.

 

[DaVe86]

It does help but Cox hasn’t shot the lights out since that prelim against any opposition.
That now looks like it was just an one off game.

Maybe I have it in for him but I honestly think we are far better off without him.
We look freer, quicker and play as such when moving the ball.

Quick ball movement everyone strives for but it’s no use when Cox can’t get separation on an lead or can’t beat his opponent back to goal in a foot race.
All our other forwards can mark and move in so many different ways.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm not a huge Mason fan either.

But Roughead has been moved forward and hasn't kicked any goals himself. Mason was at least averaging a tick over a goal a game. And was taking contested marks which Roughead also isn't. I think Roughead has been doing a far better job at halving the contests and looks a greater threat when ball goes to ground.

But overall, our forward structure hasn't changed dramatically. I think Buckley has been using Elliott and Varcoe from the goal-square a bit more...but we always used to do this with De Goey or Stephenson.

I think the value in Cox has been that we could keep Roughead in defence. I think we'll miss him back there in finals.

But overall I agree that based on the past 3 weeks, we've looked good in front of the ball.

 

[Appin Vet]

De Goey, Stephenson, WHE, Roughead, Mihochek, Varcoe and Elliot... Makes me think that we can kick some big scores if the midfield can get on a roll and move the ball quickly.
With Moore back hopefully, that will strengthen the back half. Suddenly we look the goods again not to fear anyone. Our best is definitely good enough.
As much as I loved Masons performance in last years Preliminary, he has been pushed under the drop zone quite a bit.

 

[neilk]

If we were winning clearances they we were against Adelaide then Cox would have been doing much better earlier in the season.

 

[MarkT2]

I must say I was of a similar opinion about the marks when I read the post you responded to. But then I looked at the stats, Roughead seems to take more marks, but Cox takes more contested. Interestingly, Howe on the radio this morning said that Roughead is so predictable as a fwd. In the end, I don't think it is an either/or question. If Cox was available, he would be playing forward and Roughead back. That is surely a better arrangement than Roughead forward, Madgen back.

So, if he is available, the question isn't Roughead v Cox, it is Madgen v Cox. Cox wins in 2019, but maybe not in 2020?

Unless Moore comes in. Then it's Moore or Roughead back for Madgen with the other forward for Cox.

 

[HFF]

I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm not a huge Mason fan either.

But Roughead has been moved forward and hasn't kicked any goals himself. Mason was at least averaging a tick over a goal a game. And was taking contested marks which Roughead also isn't. I think Roughead has been doing a far better job at halving the contests and looks a greater threat when ball goes to ground.

But overall, our forward structure hasn't changed dramatically. I think Buckley has been using Elliott and Varcoe from the goal-square a bit more...but we always used to do this with De Goey or Stephenson.

I think the value in Cox has been that we could keep Roughead in defence. I think we'll miss him back there in finals.

But overall I agree that based on the past 3 weeks, we've looked good in front of the ball.

Roughead hasn’t kicked any goals but he is involved in many more contests and can find easy uncontested ball on the move too—-something Cox lacks.
This also creates space and movement for the rest of the forward 50.

Roughead is also make shifting at the moment which should be ringing alarm bells for Cox....

 

[sideswipe]

Unless Moore comes in. Then it's Moore or Roughead back for Madgen with the other forward for Cox.

Possibly, but not sure that will be a question given Madgen is the likely out for Moore this week?

With Moore and Cox available, I still think the preferred spine would be as it was at the beginning of the season - Rough, Moore, Mihocek, Cox. Maybe Madgen will get a game in finals depending on opposition forwards? As I understand it the key to Roughead playing forward is to also play ruck, so whilst Cox is out, he needs to stay forward. If Roughead is preferred as a backman, then Cox is required.

Madgen seems to be improving with each game, but like Mason, he ain't a spring chicken. Early in season 2020, Madgen turns 27 to Mason's 29. And like Mihocek, he is a "little" key position player at something like 1.93m. Same with Shaz as the other KPD?

One thing is certain - we would have been screwed without swapping a 4th round pick for Roughead. Sometimes trading draft picks works!

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think the only thing we can conclude at this stage is that we should not be overpaying for Cox’s next contract. His output appears replaceable to a large extent.

 

[MarkT2]

If Cox plays like he did in the prelim then we are a lot better off with him playing but if he plays like he has for 75% of his games we are not better off. By and large he gets his hands to a lot of balls that he doesn't mark and he isn't a factor on the ground or defensively when the opposition get the ball. He is too easily bodied under the ball. His best games require the midfield to have time and space to deliver perfectly and that just doesn't happen often in final's. It's not a question of which tall but which player. All of Mihoceck, De Goey, Stevenson, Elliot, WHE are a long way better than Cox as forward options IMO. That leaves 1 disputed spot. Moore is miles better both as a forward and as a relief ruckman. I'd like to play Moore forward but I suspect he'll play back. If Moore plays back it's a choice of Roughead or another small/medium. I'd prefer the latter option given Cox's recent form with Roughead playing back. Thomas would be my pick as the 6th forward. Madgen isn't up to it, at least not yet.

 

[kickitolachie]

The comparisons here are omitting the factors from our opposition over the last three weeks that matter in this context.
Firstly, all three teams have turned the ball over a lot, which won't happen in the finals. These turnovers gave our midfield time and space to deliver the ball well, which they have been unable to do when the pressure was greater.
Secondly, the opposition midfields played poorly in all three games. This too gave our players more time and space for delivery, which was better as a result. While Cox was playing, these conditions didn't apply, our midfield has underperformed all year. The question is whether they can deliver the ball well under finals pressure. i don;t know the answer to that.
The real turnaround in my view is that we have got the right personnel in the midfield and in form.
A further caution is that Sidebottom will not be allowed to run free in finals, and his ability to set the other players up will be curtailed.
Finally, losing Cox as second ruck is a big loss. There is no way to argue around that.

My point in this is to argue against the notion that Cox's absence is the cause of a form turnaround. There are a lot of other factors that matter, and not just the weakness of 2 of the 3 opponents either.

 

[domus]

As an player we will go past him by the end of next season.

They way the modern game is played, taking 3 marks an game doesn’t constitute to being “important to structure”.

It’s already obvious and stated our ground level game improves immensely with him out of the side and space is created.

He struggles on an lead let alone being pushed under the ball by smaller or shorter opponents.

As I’ve said many times- we hammered Cloke for producing stats better than what Cox looks like at his best and we considered it terrible by Cloke.

When we have so many naturally talented players who can mark in so many various ways such as Elliott, JDG, Stephenson, WHE, Mihocek....it just makes sense that we look to move him out.
It would be perfect for us to boost our draft hand and even create cap space.

It's so easy to sweep away Cox's importance to the team. I agree with those who say the way we have moved the ball during the past three weeks would have seen Cox kicking his two goals each week. Bucks emphasized the importance of two talls up front in the heat of finals footy so you have the option of the old get out kick when under enormous pressure. Elliott, Stevo, WHE and DeGoey are all good marks for their size, but defensive units like Richmond's and West Coast would have a field day dealing with the bombs coming in late in a high pressure game without two talls. If Roughy stays forward our defense will look undermanned against the big key forward they will meet in the finals. Our mids won't be able to deliver silver service, lace out passes with any consistency in the manic heat of September. Cox value lay in his ability to create a contest and he was turning the corner form wise when he copped his eye injury.

 

[MarkT2]

It's so easy to sweep away Cox's importance to the team. I agree with those who say the way we have moved the ball during the past three weeks would have seen Cox kicking his two goals each week. Bucks emphasized the importance of two talls up front in the heat of finals footy so you have the option of the old get out kick when under enormous pressure. Elliott, Stevo, WHE and DeGoey are all good marks for their size, but defensive units like Richmond's and West Coast would have a field day dealing with the bombs coming in late in a high pressure game without two talls. If Roughy stays forward our defense will look undermanned against the big key forward they will meet in the finals. Our mids won't be able to deliver silver service, lace out passes with any consistency in the manic heat of September. Cox value lay in his ability to create a contest and he was turning the corner form wise when he copped his eye injury.

Against WCE or Richmond, I'd rather a grubber as a get out kick than a bomb where their intercept defenders provide them with an outnumber on most occasions. We can't match the flag favourites for talls so we are better off beating them with OUR strength - versatile small/medium players.

 

[jonbe54]

I see mark is in fine form - nobody does it better.

If

Against WCE or Richmond, I'd rather a grubber as a get out kick than a bomb where their intercept defenders provide them with an outnumber on most occasions. We can't match the flag favourites for talls so we are better off beating them with OUR strength - versatile small/medium players.

You are in fine form mark lol.

Just how many flag favourites have there been this year hmmm?

Today's chocolates are tomorrow's boiled lollies Mark.

Doesn't matter what the pieces and the tactics are so long as we do it better than anyone else.

 

[mocamagic]

No

 

[Robroy22]

Yeah our forwards seem to be functioning better in the last three weeks but I doubt we'll be playing the SUNS, DEE'S or CROWS in the finals.
My firm belief is that Stevo is the actual Key. When HE was up and going midseason our forwards looked dangerous.
People writing Coxy off as a structual piece forget that he's actually had injuries this season (unlike any of his other years) He played injured for a few weeks after the ankle kept him out for 4-6 and then he copped the eye injury.
Our forward line works best when we get quick entries. It's unpredictable and it has several X factor players. Cox is just one large X factor player.
And I haven't even started about his ruckwork

 

[Bramax]

The answer is yes.

BUT, Roughead isn't a natural forward and hasn't kicked a goal since he's been moved there. Once Moore is ready, he goes forward and Roughead is sent back. It's our only hope OBI.

Spot on mate. Moore has the athletic prowess and 203 cm frame to be a nightmare as a forward. He will get his hands to every contest so most likely we get the ball to ground when he doesn’t mark it and not be intercepted by gun defenders like McGovern, Grimes and co. That’s when our swoop squad go to work.
And make no mistake, Roughy going back bolsters our backline.
So rather than see this as our only hope, I see this as Magpie heaven.

 

[Bramax]

The question for me is more how will our defence function against the tall forwards of West Coast and 9th-mond.

Moore returning will help.

Moore is key. Changes the whole dynamic. I see Moore and Stephenson transforming our forward line. Absolute nightmare for opposition backlines to cover:
F Elliott Moore Varcoe
HF Stephenson Mihocek De Goey
Rotate Thomas, WHE and Brown through there too.
Pie and Mighty.

 

[Bramax]

Agree



Agree



Not so sure about this. Yesterday we looked as / or more dangerous than any other game this year and part of the reason was the way Varcoe and Billy were leading and how we were delivering to them.

I think an athletic mobile tall like Darcy works in our forward line and remember early in the season the space that would open up behind Stephenson? He’d either double back into the space he created for an easy mark or other Pies would benefit from the space he opened up. I think in a couple of weeks we’ll all be saying where has this form been the last few months? It’s no secret. It’s certain personnel and the strengths they bring. Stephenson’s loss for the last 9 games cannot be overstated. It’s amazing how much a second year player can influence our forward structure and dynamics. Can’t wait to get him back.

 

[Bramax]

I loved what Cox did in the Prelim last year, we all did. Took him a half in the GF to get going. Unfortunately that was in the wrong half.

Although I see a lot of benefits with Cox in our team, as the game unfolded yesterday, I said to my mate “we flow so much better without him”.

The question that needs to be asked right now is “at this present point, if Cox was available, would you select him given our performance yesterday with our different forward structure?”. I know I wouldn’t. This does not suggest I’d never have him in our 22, it just represents that CURRENTLY I’d be going without him.

Summed it up like pretty much we all do. If Coxy continues to develop I agree he’s in our best 22. He’s already listed 105kgs and if he looks like he could add 5 or 6kgs more to his frame, which would build on his core strength to hold his ground better in contests. He will continue to work on his positioning in contests, continue to improve his marking, and I think he can be an absolute weapon. The guy has huge hands and at times he clunks his marks but too often his marking is hit and miss. Clunks the tough ones, drops the easier ones. Consistency will come. He’s 28 and may play another 4 years because he came into the game late. I believe he will continue to get better every year until he retires. Fingers crossed.

 

[Bramax]

Yep glad none of it is my responsibility.

Adams being out and Sier's lackluster season have hurt our season badly as can be witness by the current upswing as Adams and Wills have provided the badly needed grunt.

Funnily enough I'm coming around to the belief that we have too many dangerous forwards on the ground at times. They get in each others way and present too much of a choice to those attempting i50 entries.

Everything is a matter of dynamic balance and we have been badly out of whack for much of the season.

Heartening to see things starting to come together at the pointy end of the season though.

We all are. I think Stephenson is going to have the effect of opening up our forward line with space. It will be up to our mids to hit the best targets each time because 2 or 3 of our forwards may be open when we move the ball forward quickly.

 

[Bramax]

He’s the kind of guy who needs quite a few games to get going. Next time he’s injured he should play 2-3wks of VFL before returning to AFL. Too tough for him to find touch and confidence at AFL level after a stint out.

We sometimes forget where he come from and hasn’t been playing footy since Auskick age don’t we. Finding form in the VFL is probably a good idea for him and his confidence.

 

[Bramax]

I wouldn't say better just yet, but different. Probably some coincidence behind it. Having said that, there's a bit of 1990 about this forward line, especially when De GOAT and Stevo come back.

Stevo/Daicos
De GOAT/Rowdy
Mihocek/Starcevich
Elliott/Barwick

Add De Goat, Stevo and the Darce. Start engraving the cup.