Climate Change Arguing

[Kwality]

Denying science is "thinking for themselves". LOL.

Indeed it is, particularly in this matter. Most of us are not scientists, there are conflicting scientific opinion particularly with what to do going forward. People make up their own minds, like it or not.
Sure some view the world through narrow ideologigal glasses, most dont, & my comments relate more specifically of that cohort.

 

[AM]

Sure Kelly’s utterances are ignorant and harmful but his purpose is not confusing. As was suggested in an earlier para, he’s a fossil fuel industry soldier whose purpose is to incite the rabble.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/world/australia/fires-craig-kelly-climate-denial.html

 

[AM]

Worth viewing. Not so much for the anti science death cultists. And it’s not just Scummo and the Liarberals who should be discomforted – just mostly.

 

[wahooo]

Indeed it is, particularly in this matter. Most of us are not scientists, there are conflicting scientific opinion particularly with what to do going forward. People make up their own minds, like it or not.
Sure some view the world through narrow ideologigal glasses, most dont, & my comments relate more specifically of that cohort.

Got any evidence of this conflicting science? As far as I'm aware there's at least 30 years of scientific consensus. If you're going to provide a source as well, pls make it reputable, we don't need youtube videos or ramblings from politically motivated people who aren't scientists.

You don't really get to make up your own mind on science, there's not a lot of wiggle room for interpretation. Sure, I could decide I don't believe in gravity or that the earth is flat but I'd be wrong.

 

[Kwality]

Got any evidence of this conflicting science?

Context?
What I said was ... there are conflicting scientific opinion particularly with what to do going forward.

Apart from my poor English, I have no intention of getting into the sciebce argument, check out this thread if you dont accept there are plenty of opinions, my concern is going forward.
Suffice to say I accept the climate is changing based purely on observation - being old has few advantages, thats one - dont need some guru to point out the bleedin' obvious nor does it lock me into any particular theory.

 

[wahooo]

Context?
What I said was ... there are conflicting scientific opinion particularly with what to do going forward.

Apart from my poor English, I have no intention of getting into the sciebce argument, check out this thread if you dont accept there are plenty of opinions, my concern is going forward.
Suffice to say I accept the climate is changing based purely on observation - being old has few advantages, thats one - dont need some guru to point out the bleedin' obvious nor does it lock me into any particular theory.

How about outlining these plans for moving forward? What course of action should we take? I am genuinely interested, not trying to ridicule.

I hope your plans reflect the science you seem to begrudgingly accept.

Glad you don't listen to gurus, they may help some 'see the light' but it was scientists who helped us harness and understand light.

 

[Kwality]

How about outlining these plans for moving forward? What course of action should we take? I am genuinely interested, not trying to ridicule.

I hope your plans reflect the science you seem to begrudgingly accept.

Glad you don't listen to gurus, they may help some 'see the light' but it was scientists who helped us harness and understand light.

I'm not across the detail or the alternatives, but I do know blubbering mouths v lying on the road wont do it. If you cant work co-operatively dont sit at the table. Be happy to chair the discussion, to shut down ideologues only interested in their cause.
Thinking the world will follow Europes lead was challenged a long time ago. Not going to happen.
Wanting to close coal overnight was the politics of crazies & it became a clarion call for opposition, a transition plan is not Einstein stuff, take the people with you.
Labor could run policies past Joel Gitzgibbon playing devils advocate.

On a personal basis I keep my views on the science to myself, no point in useless arguments, but I was into recycling long before it became fashionable,working on the carbon footprint of shopping centres in the 90s.

Got any positive suggestions?

 

[DidakDelight]

Friggin climate change made my pool green overnight!!!

 

[wahooo]

I'm not across the detail or the alternatives, but I do know blubbering mouths v lying on the road wont do it. If you cant work co-operatively dont sit at the table. Be happy to chair the discussion, to shut down ideologues only interested in their cause.
Thinking the world will follow Europes lead was challenged a long time ago. Not going to happen.
Wanting to close coal overnight was the politics of crazies & it became a clarion call for opposition, a transition plan is not Einstein stuff, take the people with you.
Labor could run policies past Joel Gitzgibbon playing devils advocate.

On a personal basis I keep my views on the science to myself, no point in useless arguments, but I was into recycling long before it became fashionable,working on the carbon footprint of shopping centres in the 90s.

Got any positive suggestions?

On the coal matter, I'm not for closing down coal overnight and Labor never advocated that, not even the greens do (lots of people are wildly misinformed about what the green's policies contain).

Although, why do we subsidise a dying industry? You'd surely get a greater return on investment in renewables than coal, renewables are a far better use of money. The market has realised coal is not the future, firms are considering climate risk as investment risk. I won't say "lets shut the coal industry down overnight" but it's absurd to subsidise it. We should be helping people in that industry learn new skills and find new jobs, we should "future proof" those people. But hey, who else is going to fund election campaigns?

 

[JackOutback]

Alarmists don’t read or listen to scientists. They stay within an echo chamber and read headlines from publications which suit the narrative they want to hear.

These are the same people who go ballistic if you don’t hate trump, weren’t pro brexit or don’t hate Israel.

For them it’s “Your either with us or against us and hurry up and pick a side”

Objective people don’t get hysterical about any of these issues and float somewhere in the middle seeking more information before forming an opinion, if at all, as most are busy getting on with life. I think someone labelled them the “quiet Australians”

The scientists are the alarmists, knuckleheads. It’s certainly been interesting watching people switch from straight out denialism to using the term alarmism. If these people had any self awareness, they would realise it’s the pivot of a struggling argument trying to stay afloat. The end stage is when it’s all proven correct and they deny they were ever denialists at all:

 

[DidakDelight]

The scientists are the alarmists, knuckleheads. It’s certainly been interesting watching people switch from straight out denialism to using the term alarmism. If these people had any self awareness, they would realise it’s the pivot of a struggling argument trying to stay afloat. The end stage is when it’s all proven correct and they deny they were ever denialists at all:

But Is there an end stage?
According to an alarmist yes, it’s a Armageddon.

To everyone else it’s a matter of “let’s reduce carbon and pollution cause common sense says this is not good”

You’re confusing normal people who accept the view of experts with the hysterical virtue signallers calling for overnight change and economic chaos and dire poverty.

What’s your solution?

 

[wahooo]

You’re confusing normal people who accept the view of experts with the hysterical virtue signallers calling for overnight change and economic chaos and dire poverty.

What’s your solution?

The costs of inaction are also economic chaos and dire poverty so pretty weak argument that is.

People advocating for change generally don't want to overhaul everything overnight. Go and find me one of these "virtue signallers" you speak of, I haven't seen any on this thread, it is such a weak distraction tactic. I can't figure out if you guys default to it because you're unable to engage on the normal talking points in a climate change debate or if its because you've created all these narratives in your head which you're desperate to see unfold in reality.

This is the same sort of s**t you guys do when someone says "we should tax the rich more", people take it to the extreme and go "socialism failed".

And well if the experts say we need to act fast why not take their advice?

 

[kranky al]

 

[Fadge]

View attachment 810773

Great point.

I'm still waiting for some recommendations of climate change friendly companies that I can pile some cash into.

I've been given nothing.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Great point.

I'm still waiting for some recommendations of climate change friendly companies that I can pile some cash into.

I've been given nothing.

Probably because it's pretty *ed to think you can disprove climate change via share trading.

DYOR

 

[kranky al]

Great point.

I'm still waiting for some recommendations of climate change friendly companies that I can pile some cash into.

I've been given nothing.

With the uncertainty when it comes to renewables with federal libs in charge its hard to recommend anything.

 

[Kram]

With the uncertainty when it comes to renewables with federal libs in charge its hard to recommend anything.

Maybe you just haven't the investing nous of the the great Robin Gonzalez, his amazing renewables portfolio is apparently flying.

 

[Fadge]

Probably because it's pretty ******ed to think you can disprove climate change via share trading.

DYOR

I have no idea where you're coming from with this comment.

Investing is about making a buck. Whilst I'm by no means all in on climate change, surely there are plenty of companies out there with surefire business models that are going to make a killing out of the changes that with be coming over the next 10/20/50 years.

Who are they?

 

[DidakDelight]

You'd surely get a greater return on investment in renewables than coal, renewables are a far better use

Such a vague “I’m so sure yet so unsure” response. Which is it?

Is this a question or a statement?

 

[AM]

But Is there an end stage?
According to an alarmist yes, it’s a Armageddon.

To everyone else it’s a matter of “let’s reduce carbon and pollution cause common sense says this is not good”

You’re confusing normal people who accept the view of experts with the hysterical virtue signallers calling for overnight change and economic chaos and dire poverty.

What’s your solution?

You love using colourful an emotive language DD - Armageddon. Hysterical. And when the pseudo science on which you rely is shot down you howl down the messenger. How else would you suggest pseudo science is exposed other than by analysis by experts in the field? For example, an Adelaide based geologist (not climate scientist) who has made a tidy sum making 'alarmist' claims there's not much of immediate concern. Claims I suspect you'd support.

Perhaps what you are really saying is that climate change is real but I don't want to give away any of my affluent/comfortable lifestyle. If that consigns future generations to a hellish life, too bad. Very Andrew Doltish

 

[mcnulty]

I have no idea where you're coming from with this comment.

Investing is about making a buck. Whilst I'm by no means all in on climate change, surely there are plenty of companies out there with surefire business models that are going to make a killing out of the changes that with be coming over the next 10/20/50 years.

Who are they?

There were no surefire business models at the start of the computer or digital age. That‘s not how it works. But the bold and the innovative can make an awful lot of money. Given our natural advantages, you’d like to they’d be Australian. You just know they wont be.

 

[DidakDelight]

Perhaps what you are really saying is that climate change is real but I don't want to give away any of my affluent/comfortable lifestyle. If that consigns future generations to a hellish life, too bad. Very Andrew Doltish

100%
I’ve always said it’s real, and has been for Millenia. Think of those two words in isolation “Climate Change” which used to be global cooling then global warming now it’s any weather event that occurs all under the one umbrella of Climate Change.

What I do question is the ever changing predictions and the scare tactics by SJWs like extinction rebellion and that girl who had her childhood ruined.

 

[Kwality]

On the coal matter, I'm not for closing down coal overnight and Labor never advocated that, not even the greens do (lots of people are wildly misinformed about what the green's policies contain).

Although, why do we subsidise a dying industry? You'd surely get a greater return on investment in renewables than coal, renewables are a far better use of money. The market has realised coal is not the future, firms are considering climate risk as investment risk. I won't say "lets shut the coal industry down overnight" but it's absurd to subsidise it. We should be helping people in that industry learn new skills and find new jobs, we should "future proof" those people. But hey, who else is going to fund election campaigns?

Glad to see we agree on the overnight claims, transition is worth the work of the costing ($s & people) & timeline.

There was an earlier claim on the subsidies at the Adani project, that argument is full of ambit claims on both sides. I am yet to see a firm case on either sides, particularly the diesel fuel rebates.
Reality is the export income, the jobs, wages & taxes paid across all levels of government. Very different to closing motor vehicle manufacturing.

To me we need to be pragmatic, IF everyone else ceases mining coal, we should - no way does Australia need to lead.

I'm happy to adopt renewables (the family home fitted solar panels in WA in the 70s), my problem is we've not built a coal plant in a while , its gone into wind & solar primarily & my power bills have gone up & up, that is a problem that is beyond politics, & I've made up my mind, stuff the politics.

Yes I know renewables are cheaper, it should be, reflect in my bill !!! Recent decisions by China to continue with coal over renewables supports my cynicism, why would they pay to import coal from Aus over solar & wind, they are major players in those markets, why would they chose a more expensive option?
Not sure of the claims over costing we keep being fed, how can now be told there has been capacity built but the grid needs $s+ more spent to carry it - we didnt know about it, how was it costed in?

AEMO slashes output of five big solar farms by half due to voltage issues

In another blow to solar industry, five big solar farms in Victoria and NSW have output slashed in half after AEMO identifies system strength issues.

reneweconomy.com.au

Victoria solar farms face tighter constraints, new projects may be blocked from grid

Solar farms warned of tighter constraints in Victoria, as more projects face delays and others may be blocked from grid.

reneweconomy.com.au

Its not doom & gloom, but its not easy.

23 solar farms added to grid in 2019 as PV costs fall to record lows

2019 was a tough year for large-scale solar, but still managed to deliver a range of ground-breaking projects. Meanwhile, rooftop solar is “as cheap as it has ever been.”

reneweconomy.com.au

The plan to build solar in the North & export to Asia is hopefully in the future, interestingly Singapore is using waste to energy power, on the east coast its opposed at every turn.

As for future jobs I used to hear Jon Faine (ABC Melbourne) talking up transitioning from the mining boom (actually boom in mining construction) to a smarter economy when our performance in education has the cred of Vic horse racing. Cash for qualifications all government subsidised.

My criticism applies to both sides of politics, only the packaging changes.

 

[Kwality]

Probably because it's pretty ******ed to think you can disprove climate change via share trading.

DYOR

Dont take market capitalisation/share price as more than what people are willing to pay.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I have no idea where you're coming from with this comment.

Investing is about making a buck. Whilst I'm by no means all in on climate change, surely there are plenty of companies out there with surefire business models that are going to make a killing out of the changes that with be coming over the next 10/20/50 years.

Who are they?

I'm curious what your angle is. Say there are no companies that are 100% renewable energy based that have good outlooks; what does it prove in this thread?

I mean, if you're literally just looking to make money, I can only hope you would never base it on advice from SRP.