Recruiting Trade & Free Agency VIII

[Lore]

ATTENTION OPPOSITION POSTERS: You are on the Essendon board - not the draft board, or the main board or your club board. You are welcome to post here but you will mind your manners or you will be carded. Don't waltz in here telling the locals what's happening/not happening, what's dumb etc. By the same token sealioning will also not be tolerated so be warned. You do not have equal standing here no matter how right you think you are.

Spoiler: AFL TRADE, DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY KEY DATES 2020

Draft Combine
Tuesday October 1 - Friday October 4

AFL Grand Final
Saturday October 24

Free Agency Window
Friday October 30 – Friday November 6

AFL Trade Period (Players and picks)
Wednesday November 4 – 7.30pm Thursday November 12

List Lodgement 1
Wednesday November 25

Delisted Free Agency Window 1
Thursday November 26 - Sunday November 29

List Lodgement 2 (Final date for primary list delistings)
Monday November 30

Delisted Free Agency Window 2
Monday November 30 - Tuesday December 1

AFL Trade Period (Picks only)
Concludes Thursday December 3

National Draft
7pm Wednesday December 9

Preseason and Rookie Drafts
12pm Thursday December 10

Final List Lodgement
Mid-December (tbc)

Pre-Season Supplemental Selection Period (SSP)
Wednesday January 6, 2021 – will conclude prior to the start of the 2021 Toyota AFL Premiership Season

Spoiler: DRAFT ORDER

Any issues with it post in this thread:

Draft discussion goes here: Draft Watch

Father/Son & NGA discussion goes here: James Hird Academy (Father/Son and Next Generation)

Poll results: Who should stay? | Which key forward do you want? | What would you give up to get Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

29

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

?

 

[Keystone agony]

He's an average CP winner across his career.

I agree he could be brilliant with consistency, but he's not elite as you've loosely claimed.

Of his 173 disposals won in 2019 what's the CP/UCP rate?

Also he sticks tackles unlike our midfield Heppell, Zerrett, Shiel

 

[cAsEy_18]

Think with both Fantasia and Daniher (and heck, you can even go further with guys like Laverde) is for too long, we've feared that we have these incredibly talented injury-prone guys, where our worst nightmare would be to see them come good and reach their potential at another club.

I think we need to move away from that mentality. And it's horrific timing in terms of trade value - Fantasia is an incredibly talented player, Daniher genuinely could be top 10 in the comp material in a best-case-scenario, and we'll get unders for both. But this is now about us. It's not about "winning trades". It's not about "what could've been" and "Woh is us" and "It's gotta be our turn soon".
We need a culture change, and that goes alongside a mentality change.

You won't have any sort of genuine success without it. And that success might not look incredible with Snelling and Co leading the charge next year.
But if you can sustain that mentality, that culture, that 'you know what you're getting from every single guy, every single week, no exceptions' sort of stuff...I can't put a timeline on it, but that can bring eventual success. I'd be surprised if Rutten didn't have a very big say in recruiting over the next 2-3yrs, both trading but more in particular drafting, and that we'll see things like 'repeat sprint times' become a high priority (multiple efforts, both defensively and moving the ball forward).

The truth of the matter is, we simply don't have the playing list currently to play the way Rutten wants to play, either physically or mentally.

I have more belief in him than any of our recent coaches, however. I wouldn't buy into any negative media attention if we see another 12th-14th finish next year. "How" we play will be a big determinant as to how successful our 2021 season is - and I'm starting to realise that I couldn't care less whether that includes Fantasia or Daniher (Saad will hurt).

 

[BrunoV]

Neither ohalloran or Smith can get a game for their respective clubs.
they are far from guarantees to help much at all
I think there is a danger to think these blokes plus constable and Brodie are going to help too much.
brent Prism all is probably a good warning for us

How does the same danger not apply to any kid that is drafted?

I don't see what Prismall has to do with anything. How far back do we go playing this game? The Danihers, Wellman or even Stewart and Saad. For every player that doesn't work there will be one that did and vice versa.

There are no guarantees with any young player so that also not really an argument.

I was looking at the addition of attributes which are badly needed. We have virtually no idea what is going to be available by the time we take a pick in the 20s let along the 30s or 40s. You could make an argument that the inside mid is not even close to the best available by the time we take the pick in question. What if the available option does not have the running ability? Rutten can then spend his time nurturing an inferior prospect.

I'm a bird in the hand person.

You are right but the odds lean my way I reckon quite significantly
i also think there is a philosophical element to this.
we have forgotten how to go to the draft and develop our own young players a bit. Ridley is one that we have developed with a pick in the 20s.
if gws want a pic in the 40s for ohalloran fair enough- in another thread I suggested maybe brodie and wright for a second round pick next year but watching this weeks final I have concluded we are way off the pace and rutten probably deserves kids he can nurture and develop

We haven't forgotten anything. The list has been overrated and mismanaged accordingly they are different things. I accept there is a philosophical problem with the way talent is developed but the most fundamental problem at this point in time, particularly in the middle of the ground, is that we can't find the spots to play any of the players who might be able to help us. I'd also make the point that having Brisbane and GWS start midfield development it probably a good thing. It's not like we have a track record of churning out quality contested (i.e. actual contests and not loose ball gets) players and the coaches are trying to transplant the Richmond secondary clearance style game onto a side that rubbish around the ball.

In any event, the philosophy does not get turned around in 1 offseason, nor does it need to be. There is no reason we wouldn't be taking at least 3 picks in the first 25 with 2 NGA KPPs. Add in a few mids who are almost ready to go and having enough time left to play 200-250 for us if everything goes according to plan. What exactly is wrong with that?

This whole discussion is probably moot any way. We seem to think our midfield is good.

 

[citizen-erased]

Think with both Fantasia and Daniher (and heck, you can even go further with guys like Laverde) is for too longer, we've feared that we have these incredibly talented injury-prone guys, where our worst nightmare would be to see them come good and reach their potential at another club.

I think we need to move away from that mentality. And it's horrific timing in terms of trade value - Fantasia is an incredibly talented player, Daniher genuinely could be top 10 in the comp material in a best-case-scenario, and we'll get unders for both. But this is now about us. It's not about "winning trades". It's not about "what could've been" and "Woh is us" and "It's gotta be our turn soon".
We need a culture change, and that goes alongside a mentality change.

You won't have any sort of genuine success without it. And that success might not look incredible with Snelling and Co leading the charge next year.
But if you can sustain that mentality, that culture, that 'you know what you're getting from every single guy, every single week, no exceptions' sort of stuff...I can't put a timeline on it, but that can bring eventual success. I'd be surprised if Rutten didn't have a very big say in recruiting over the next 2-3yrs, both trading but more in particular drafting, and that we'll see things like 'repeat sprint times' become a high priority (multiple efforts, both defensively and moving the ball forward).

The truth of the matter is, we simply don't have the playing list currently to play the way Rutten wants to play, either physically or mentally.

I have more belief in him than any of our recent coaches, however. I wouldn't buy into any negative media attention if we see another 12th-14th finish next year. "How" we play will be a big determinant as to how successful our 2021 season is - and I'm starting to realise that I couldn't care less whether that includes Fantasia or Daniher (Saad will hurt).

as fans that's fine
As list manager, you need to be better than that. You're making calls that can significantly impact the clubs fortunes.

Plenty of cases
Kav in 2014. Even another 3rd or 4th that year opens up ops for Daniel, Howard or Butler
Laverde in 2016. Ripper draft with a lot of depth. Saints had made of like bandits with picks from the hawks, so had a hand to trade
Fantasia & Joey...can forgive these given they were proven talents and we knew the potential we may have lost. But we took the gamble on them getting fit and not losing value, but still exploring options in 12m where our bargaining position weakens. Too many risks for a dispassionate list manager to make the decisions made at the time (same applies to anyone else who was involved in the decision)

 

[Keystone agony]

Brodie is a concern, not seeing a lot of games across 4 seasons.
And it's not like it's a Geel/Bris/Rich situation where there is a lot of depth over that time keeping him out.

I'd be doing a lot of homework if we approached.

I get why Smith & RCD aren't getting games.
O'Halloran, Constable, etc. much the same..

I agree we need to look at all

Constable
C.Stephens
RCD
E.Smith
O'Halloran
Hately
LDU*

Just they're alot younger so we need to decide we're out of contention for another 3-4 years and rebuilding. Also these guys cost far more right now

*LDU might have enough experience to get us in contention in 2-3 years means little if we lose Daniher and Saad and don't replace

So the question is are we declaring a rebuild then?

 

[citizen-erased]

I agree we need to look at all

Constable
C.Stephens
RCD
E.Smith
O'Halloran
Hately
LDU*

Just they're alot younger so we need to decide we're out of contention for another 3-4 years and rebuilding. Also these guys cost far more right now

*LDU might have enough experience to get us in contention in 2-3 years

So the question is are we declaring a rebuild then?

young kids can make a difference early.
Selwood is prime example.

Taranto, Smith, Rowell, Heppell, McGrath, SPP, etc etc.
wouldn't necessarily say we're rebuilding if we added a couple to the unit of McGrath, Merrett, Shiel, Parish and Langford that have spent a couple of seasons together.
Probably means we're looking at 2022 for top 8 again at best.
But you do get a midfield with depth and age on it's side. Esp if we add another gun (Phillips/Bruhn) at our 1st this year and just keep hitting drafts until we get our depth back to a point we can afford to trade hard again.

we need to build a midfield that will be around for a while asap
Been a while since we've had a good unit through the middle.

 

[Keystone agony]

young kids can make a difference early.
Selwood is prime example.

Taranto, Smith, Rowell, Heppell, McGrath, SPP, etc etc.
wouldn't necessarily say we're rebuilding if we added a couple to the unit of McGrath, Merrett, Shiel, Parish and Langford that have spent a couple of seasons together.
Probably means we're looking at 2022 for top 8 again at best.
But you do get a midfield with depth and age on it's side. Esp if we add another gun (Phillips/Bruhn) at our 1st this year and just keep hitting drafts until we get our depth back to a point we can afford to trade hard again.

we need to build a midfield that will be around for a while asap
Been a while since we've had a good unit through the middle.

Yes but if they're Selwood good they're playing and playing well. No matter what side. These guys aren't.

 

[ghostdog]

Of his 173 disposals won in 2019 what's the CP/UCP rate?

Also he sticks tackles unlike our midfield Heppell, Zerrett, Shiel

You tell me. You've claimed he's an elite contested possession winner. I've shown you that across his career he is not, and your claim is therefore fallacious.

He has averaged more tackles across his career than both Heppell and Shiel, but not Merrett, who on average 'sticks tackles' better than Brodie. So, again you're making a pretty loose claim.

How many of your other claims have been loose?

 

[Keystone agony]

young kids can make a difference early.
Selwood is prime example.

Taranto, Smith, Rowell, Heppell, McGrath, SPP, etc etc.
wouldn't necessarily say we're rebuilding if we added a couple to the unit of McGrath, Merrett, Shiel, Parish and Langford that have spent a couple of seasons together.
Probably means we're looking at 2022 for top 8 again at best.
But you do get a midfield with depth and age on it's side. Esp if we add another gun (Phillips/Bruhn) at our 1st this year and just keep hitting drafts until we get our depth back to a point we can afford to trade hard again.

we need to build a midfield that will be around for a while asap
Been a while since we've had a good unit through the middle.

I disagree you need to build a side that will come into the right age bracket at the same time

There is simply no point finishing 6th-14th every year like this club does

An RCD, Ely Smith, Hallorahan do nothing for us in the next 2-3 years to put us into serious premiership contention. They've basically not played yet. They might not be anything regardless. They've shown nothing in their time so far to suggest so

 

[The Prosecutor]

Worth noting that afl.com.au has stated Gleeson has met his trigger for a contract extension.

 

[eth-dog]

Worth noting that afl.com.au has stated Gleeson has met his trigger for a contract extension.

I can hear the melts already

 

[Keystone agony]

You tell me. You've claimed he's an elite contested possession winner. I've shown you that across his career he is not, and your claim is therefore fallacious.

He has averaged more tackles across his career than both Heppell and Shiel, but not Merrett, who on average 'sticks tackles' better than Brodie. So, again you're making a pretty loose claim.

How many of your other claims have been loose?

76 of his 173 were CPs plenty of double digit games in there. 44%. Not bad for a guy in games 12-20 of his career playing some onball and some wing time.

But you do realise stats relate to roles.

Also when he played juniors as a pure onballer he was a great CP and clearance player. The two basically go hand in hand as onballers.

Wingmen don't win high CPs mostly due to role. Check Gaff, L.Hunter, T.Phillips, Daicos ect CP

My point is we need a big body in the midfield. He comes cheap and has shown he can play this role then for me if we want to be successful 18-36 months time he is what we need over a baby kid who hasn't played an AFL game in year 2 or 3

He AVG 5.5 tackles a game last year. But again I'd rather try run through or stand up in a Shiel, Zac Merrett tackle than a 90kg Brodie.

If were losing Daniher, Saad on-top of McKenna and Fantasia and not replacing. Then we're rebuilding and 4 years away and happy to go after the baby kids at the right price RCD, E.Smith, Hallorahan ect

What other claims?

 

[ghostdog]

76 of his 173 were CPs plenty of double digit games in there. 44%. Not bad for a guy in games 12-20 of his career playing some onball and some wing time.

But you do realise stats relate to roles.

Also when he played juniors as a pure onballer he was a great CP and clearance player. The two basically go hand in hand as onballers.

Wingmen don't win high CPs mostly due to role. Check Gaff, L.Hunter, T.Phillips, Daicos ect CP

My point is we need a big body in the midfield. He comes cheap and has shown he can play this role then for me if we want to be successful 18-36 months time he is what we need over a baby kid who hasn't played an AFL game in year 2 or 3

He AVG 5.5 tackles a game last year. But again I'd rather try run through or stand up in a Shiel, Zac Merrett tackle than a 90kg Brodie.

That's fine, but he has played 20 games in four years. It's pretty clear that he's not an elite CP winner. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't 'stick tackles' better than Merrett yet.

You obviously know a lot about the game, certainly more than me, but there's no need to exaggerate. I think I've learned a lot about the game since loitering around here, but if I can pick a bull**** salesman I reckon others can too. If you're relating the stat to the role then that context is important.

I agree with your point about needing a bigger midfielder. I hope we can get one for the short term and one or two for the longer term. I'm not sure Brodie is the answer for the short term without knowing more about what was keeping him out. I would have thought Rowell's injury was the perfect opportunity to be able to get a consistent run at it, but even then he wasn't considered good enough [enter smart arse comment about being an 'elite' CP winner here].

For the longer term, I really like what little I've seen of RCD and Charlie Constable. I hope we're keeping tabs on Flanders as well.

 

[Fear Boner]

I can hear the melts already

He’s Trash

 

[yaco55]

No. Just no.

If you lose Joe you need a key forward or a big body mid.

Would we not have

Hurley
Hooker
Ambrose
BZT
Francis
McBride
Jeka
C.Brand

All as key talls on the list for next year? Plus Ridley who's very capable in a few years time of playing the Grimes role if worse case scenario hit with the 8 above

So where do you find a big forward as they don't grow on trees.

 

[yaco55]

I don't understand this fixation with chasing unproven players who only get limited game time with their clubs - Then i read about attributes and the like but we don't worry whether they can play the game - When i read these posts I think of Laverde - Has nice attributes but is unable to consistently apply them in a game of foooty.

 

[Bjchan13]

I don't understand this fixation with chasing unproven players who only get limited game time with their clubs - Then i read about attributes and the like but we don't worry whether they can play the game - When i read these posts I think of Laverde - Has nice attributes but is unable to consistently apply them in a game of foooty.

Fixation? When was the last time we traded for a 20-21 yr old inside mid? It is a risk and could end up a bust, which is why you're not coughing up huge currency at the trade table. Any draft pick has the potential to be a bust as well so you've gotta back your clubs recruitment to do their homework and get more trade/draft calls right than wrong.

 

[Yoda_]

I don't understand this fixation with chasing unproven players who only get limited game time with their clubs - Then i read about attributes and the like but we don't worry whether they can play the game - When i read these posts I think of Laverde - Has nice attributes but is unable to consistently apply them in a game of foooty.

Hope my dear friend

Hope will hide any underlying emotion


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JayJ20]

Apparently we did inquire about Clayton Oliver? But he's not going anywhere just now. Source: random poster on bigfooty who may or may not be credible

Throw Daniher money at him please.

 

[fairbump_playon]

That 2021 draft would be epic. 7 1st rounders haha

Yeah we would do that and then suddenly in about August it would turn into “weakest and most compromised draft in history” with 15 father sons and academy picks at the pointy end and a whole heap of Paddy Dows on offer

 

[fairbump_playon]

I would be happy with no major moves this offseason. I feel we have the urge to make moves even when they are of questionable benefit.

Just sign the key signings, trade out those who don't want to be here and draft well.

You absolute maniac.

 

[citizen-erased]

Bargain buys? Nine players that could be hot trade property for multiple clubs

Bargain buys: Nine fringe players that will be hot trade property for your club

www.foxsports.com.au

Add O'Halloran, Constable & Wright
Keep Saad
Sell Fantasia
Daniher - Hard to plan without knowing what he gets us

Cats keen on Bruhn. Trade pick 6 & future 3rd for 12, Constable & their 2nd. pricey access but we'd be their best bet.

Use their 2nd to get O'Halloran
Whatever we get for Fantasia for Wright.

build a midfield with the picks and additions.

 

[faible]

I don't understand this fixation with chasing unproven players who only get limited game time with their clubs - Then i read about attributes and the like but we don't worry whether they can play the game - When i read these posts I think of Laverde - Has nice attributes but is unable to consistently apply them in a game of foooty.

Laverde is a different case, he's a guy that has pretty consistently struggled for fitness due to injury, when played in a run of games he shows progress, then gets injured again. Having done just enough to tease us and stay on the list for another year. It's OK to have a guy like that around for a while, but when you add Daniher, Fantasia, and Stewart that's basically our entire forward-line talent being injury prone.

I'd rather we look at guys like a Brodie / Constable / O'Halloran etc.. who haven't got a lot of exposed AFL form but have generally been durable, along with someone young enough like Wright to be a potential KPF long term. We don't need superstars (though we'd love them) but we definitely need to bolster our 22 - 26 yo stocks with guys who are ready to contribute at AFL level that might not have had opportunity, or who need a change of club to reset their brains and form a bit.

Someone like Brodie has all the physical tools to be a quality AFL midfielder for example, but it seems his two-way running is what's keeping him out of the GCS side. Maybe being traded will be enough of a wake-up call to fix that for him, a lot of these solid inside types take a while to come good, in a similar sense to KPP's taking time to get big enough, heavy enough and strong enough.

 

[Keystone agony]

That's fine, but he has played 20 games in four years. It's pretty clear that he's not an elite CP winner. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't 'stick tackles' better than Merrett yet.

You obviously know a lot about the game, certainly more than me, but there's no need to exaggerate. I think I've learned a lot about the game since loitering around here, but if I can pick a bull**** salesman I reckon others can too. If you're relating the stat to the role then that context is important.

I agree with your point about needing a bigger midfielder. I hope we can get one for the short term and one or two for the longer term. I'm not sure Brodie is the answer for the short term without knowing more about what was keeping him out. I would have thought Rowell's injury was the perfect opportunity to be able to get a consistent run at it, but even then he wasn't considered good enough [enter smart arse comment about being an 'elite' CP winner here].

For the longer term, I really like what little I've seen of RCD and Charlie Constable. I hope we're keeping tabs on Flanders as well.

There's no doubt something is holding Brodie out of the side unless he had a major fall out with the coach this year

He ended last year with 26 disposals and 10 tackles

He then as rightfully picked for round 1 but didn't really deliver and nor did the entire side

His weakness from memory is UCP, endurance and coincides with his ability to get back but not his inside work. As I said it takes many years even for the now elite of the comp to become elite inside midfielders.

Zac Merrett AVG 3.5 tackles a game this year. ÷0.8 for time that's 4.4 tackles

Brodie AVG 5.5 last year

If we purely want to see who's laying more tackles recently in their career than stats are saying Brodie.

The sounds also have quite a thick set midfield Greenwood, Swallow, Rowell, T.Miller

Greenwood basically took Brodie's role

 

[I Remember Bluey]

If JD goes to Brisbane then you may be able to pry McStay out of Brisbane and you play him as a key defender.

I could be wrong, but I thought Joey and McStay were friends from pre AFL days, it might be a reason Joey is considering Brisbane.