Remove this Banner Ad

List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ash24 said:
Yes, but no. Like always the club will try and turn him into one, but I don't think he's a natural small forward.
Click to expand...
I’ll admit to knowing sweet fa about him. Do we think he could get to a Jason Castagna level? Goal a game and a really solid pressure forward?

I realise we’d like to hope for more but I’d be happy enough with that outcome for what we paid...
 
After tonight, absolutely no one can look at the retention of Cottrell and elevation of Gibbons and consider that smart list management under the circumstances. Hindsight is one thing, but I said as much in the lead-up to these decisions being made.

Retaining Newman without confirmation of re-rookie changes also looks decidedly dumb too, but I'd go a step further and suggest we shouldn't have retained him at all given the glut of small/medium midfielders we need to be able to rotate through the team.

Tired of these nervous decisions from our football department that hamper our ability to bring in quality talent. Tonight the price was one or both of Eddie Ford and Isaiah Winter. Kolar will probably be off the board before we make a rookie pick.
 
Jimmae said:
After tonight, absolutely no one can look at the retention of Cottrell and elevation of Gibbons and consider that smart list management under the circumstances. Hindsight is one thing, but I said as much in the lead-up to these decisions being made.

Retaining Newman without confirmation of re-rookie changes also looks decidedly dumb too, but I'd go a step further and suggest we shouldn't have retained him at all given the glut of small/medium midfielders we need to be able to rotate through the team.

Tired of these nervous decisions from our football department that hamper our ability to bring in quality talent. Tonight the price was one or both of Eddie Ford and Isaiah Winter. Kolar will probably be off the board before we make a rookie pick.
Click to expand...
This feels like a rant, J. Sometimes needed to relieve stress like feelings. This was always a crap shoot draft and we got a couple of kids who might contribute. Remember: Saad, Williams, Fogarty were all a part of the bottom line. We kept next years draft integrity intact. None of the Winder et al names were going to make or break the win loss percentage for 2021. You are a respected poster, J. Don’t sell your farm based on fringe wins/loses.
 

Log in to remove this Banner Ad

BigBreakfast said:
This feels like a rant, J. Sometimes needed to relieve stress like feelings. This was always a crap shoot draft and we got a couple of kids who might contribute. Remember: Saad, Williams, Fogarty were all a part of the bottom line. We kept next years draft integrity intact. None of the Winder et al names were going to make or break the win loss percentage for 2021. You are a respected poster, J. Don’t sell your farm based on fringe wins/loses.
Click to expand...
'Taking it as the whole' is as bad as hand-wringing. There was more value to be extracted out of some deals, and we did have the ability to walk away from dealing with Essendon entirely. Working these margins is what separates the great from the good or average.

Winder was worth the risk, and the only thing stopping us from drafting him? Us.

Gibbons still being on the rookie list would have just opened up more opportunities for us, especially compared to Cottrell, who cannot move the ball quickly by foot to save his life.
 
Jimmae said:
'Taking it as the whole' is as bad as hand-wringing. There was more value to be extracted out of some deals, and we did have the ability to walk away from dealing with Essendon entirely. Working these margins is what separates the great from the good or average.

Winder was worth the risk, and the only thing stopping us from drafting him? Us.

Gibbons still being on the rookie list would have just opened up more opportunities for us, especially compared to Cottrell, who cannot move the ball quickly by foot to save his life.
Click to expand...
Mate, he has had a couple of runs and won us a game. Give me a spell. Our list is better and we took a flyer on Saad who has already shown up to training and has elite skills. Cox or Reid weren't going to get us into the finals this year, Saad is more likely to do so. There will be a a Winder next year but there won’t be an elite 26 year old defender.
 
Jimmae said:
'Taking it as the whole' is as bad as hand-wringing. There was more value to be extracted out of some deals, and we did have the ability to walk away from dealing with Essendon entirely. Working these margins is what separates the great from the good or average.

Winder was worth the risk, and the only thing stopping us from drafting him? Us.

Gibbons still being on the rookie list would have just opened up more opportunities for us, especially compared to Cottrell, who cannot move the ball quickly by foot to save his life.
Click to expand...
That's what irks me the most; it's also stupid if next year alone is the overarching bottom line. Why just settle on approximate when you also have the chance to be precise? It seems like Carlton's old fear of failure resurfacing.
 
Jimmae said:
'Taking it as the whole' is as bad as hand-wringing. There was more value to be extracted out of some deals, and we did have the ability to walk away from dealing with Essendon entirely. Working these margins is what separates the great from the good or average.

Winder was worth the risk, and the only thing stopping us from drafting him? Us.

Gibbons still being on the rookie list would have just opened up more opportunities for us, especially compared to Cottrell, who cannot move the ball quickly by foot to save his life.
Click to expand...
I think you are overrating kids no clubs rate very highly. Gibbons earned his spot and it’s more a culture type call then a list management one which is extremely important when actually dealing with people. That’s why Richmond are winning flags and GWS aren’t.

The margins between the best and worst are also often exaggerated. All clubs make constant mistakes and all clubs rely on other teams taking guys like Scully and Trengove ahead of Martin for example. The best run club has probably been Geelong yet they have an abysmal record of spotting early talent and even developing them and look at their trade tonight where the majority thinks they have made a mistake. The best clubs have all also paid apparent overs to get what they want.

No doubt we will have missed an opportunity tonight just like all the best clubs have too. I also thought we had missed an opportunity not cutting Polson, Finbar, etc early and having another pick in the draft but the same could also be said about Jones and from other clubs someone like Menegola.
 
Jimmae said:
'Taking it as the whole' is as bad as hand-wringing. There was more value to be extracted out of some deals, and we did have the ability to walk away from dealing with Essendon entirely. Working these margins is what separates the great from the good or average.

Winder was worth the risk, and the only thing stopping us from drafting him? Us.

Gibbons still being on the rookie list would have just opened up more opportunities for us, especially compared to Cottrell, who cannot move the ball quickly by foot to save his life.
Click to expand...
I agree on the more value to be had call, but in the end, when you look at recently successful teams like Hawthorn and Geelong, they have not been fussed in handing over slight overs in order to get their man.

Also, I think we had to be particularly careful with Saad, as we are only just beginning to be seen as a destination club and couldn’t be seen to leave players hanging who are willing to come. It was made worse by the fact it was * and Dodo who is not interested in getting deals done, just being seen to be the uncompromising force.

Over all, I’m not fussed on Newman or Gibbons, though I think they would be stiff to be cut, and don’t agree at all on my man Cotters, who in the few games he’s played, at least shows confidence and purpose, unlike a few others on our list with all the skills in the world, but no idea what to do with the ball. Deers in headlights.

I think we have been down so long we have all been obsessed with the draft and who we cut from the list, instead this year I think we are starting to get a list that is strong enough to open the window and starting to gel, so we need to have more confidence in the playing group to deliver before we swing the axe again.
 
Expect to see a few fancied players traded/cut at end of '21 tbh - but for now:

Saad sort of covers for Simpson.
Williams is a gun HBFer with some midfield and forward credentials- ie like Martin the bloke is a very good footballer.
Fogarty I'm hoping isnt another Smedts/Lang geelong reject.

as for draft - as usual lets see if either of these new kids adds a tad more value over the next 3 years (not one year) than the first round picks on mids that all seem to have developed into a bunch of ordinary "meh" so far - Walsh aside and a pleasant surprise by how good TDK is looking as a second round project tall.

3-4 year facts are that late picks ( SOJ) rookies ( Gibbons) and trades ( Newnes/Setterfield/Kennedy) have been better players for Carlton than Dow/LoB/Cuningham/Fisher so far....and SPS is now pretty much preferred as a defender. The only problem child we have as far as expensive trade in goes is McGovern - at least he has the demonstrated class to match it with any opponent and beat them - cant say the same for any of our highly rated top 10 picked mids.

Jury is out on last years mob - but I really like the 'look' of Honey and some suggest Ramsay/Philp have some AFL qualities- we will see.

Looking forward to Stocker/Kemp as the most exciting new players and fingers crossed Marchbank and Charlie get to play at some stage in '21.

List is starting to resemble a good quality middling side - missing a genuine gun midfielder next to Cripps and a couple of wingmen - but with a good injury run shoudl make finals.
 
JustaBattler said:
Expect to see a few fancied players traded/cut at end of '21 tbh - but for now:

Saad sort of covers for Simpson.
Williams is a gun HBFer with some midfield and forward credentials- ie like Martin the bloke is a very good footballer.
Fogarty I'm hoping isnt another Smedts/Lang geelong reject.

as for draft - as usual lets see if either of these new kids adds a tad more value over the next 3 years (not one year) than the first round picks on mids that all seem to have developed into a bunch of ordinary "meh" so far - Walsh aside and a pleasant surprise by how good TDK is looking as a second round project tall.

3-4 year facts are that late picks ( SOJ) rookies ( Gibbons) and trades ( Newnes/Setterfield/Kennedy) have been better players for Carlton than Dow/LoB/Cuningham/Fisher so far....and SPS is now pretty much preferred as a defender. The only problem child we have as far as expensive trade in goes is McGovern - at least he has the demonstrated class to match it with any opponent and beat them - cant say the same for any of our highly rated top 10 picked mids.

Jury is out on last years mob - but I really like the 'look' of Honey and some suggest Ramsay/Philp have some AFL qualities- we will see.

Looking forward to Stocker/Kemp as the most exciting new players and fingers crossed Marchbank and Charlie get to play at some stage in '21.

List is starting to resemble a good quality middling side - missing a genuine gun midfielder next to Cripps and a couple of wingmen - but with a good injury run shoudl make finals.
Click to expand...
Would've thought you'd be all over Fogarty, JAB. Has a good tackling technique, fast with a bit of nasty.
 
2021, will be the first year, for a long time, were we dont need to play our 2020 first round picks
We can now let them develop at thier own pace in the VFL, if they earn, then good, but we are no longer forced to throw them into the deep end early, unless ready, these two were just icing and a free hit on the 2020 cake, we already got the main cake in saad and williams, given carol in bottom age and was predicted at late first, happy we got him for 41. Let him play VFL for the year, he is almost 12 months growth ( muscle) behind some of the other draftees
 

Remove this Banner Ad

According to my assessment, we are now likely to have the following playing as small forwards in the seniors:
- Martin
- Fisher
- Betts
- Gibbons
- Murphy (rotating through)

With the following list likely to be playing through there in the 2s:
- Cuningham
- Philp
- Honey
- Fogarty (rotating through)
- Owies
- Durdin

I think we have more than enough coverage there. I suspect we must have a few mature aged KPPs ready to sign for the VFL team as we definitely don't have enough coverage there at the moment.
 
Gethelred said:
Would've thought you'd be all over Fogarty, JAB. Has a good tackling technique, fast with a bit of nasty.
Click to expand...

G : I actually dont have a view on Fogarty because I've never seen him play - no view means totally open minded until I see him play - doesn't take me long about a game or so or even less to decide on wether we have a player or not.

Against this dead neutral view - I am absolutely ecstatic about Williams - who has been my favourite GWS defender/player for years and was a real eye opener in finals series a year ago in midfield - genuine gun player who ( like Martin ) can pretty much play anywhere in the field including forward lines - genuine 'footballer'.

Saad is a also a game changer because he can run and kick very long over presses . and ios one of those fast players who knows how to use his speed to make defensive tackling easy - hopefully some of our tackle shy developing faster mids can learn from Saad and his technique .
 
HARKER said:
An idea that came to mind - Who are our most 'talented' players?
Opinions would be wildly varying here but for me, I'd have our top ten...and in no order -

CCurnow McKay Petrevski-Seton Walsh Williams Fisher Martin Kemp McGovern & Weitering - subject to change conditional on the understanding the term 'talent'

How can I leave Cripps out? Only because he relies on much more than pure talent and that in itself is talent....but you know.
Click to expand...
Charlie has the most untapped talent probably the most of any forward in the comp, generational type talent our Chuck, if only he’d stop falling over the idiot.
 
Jimmae said:
After tonight, absolutely no one can look at the retention of Cottrell and elevation of Gibbons and consider that smart list management under the circumstances. Hindsight is one thing, but I said as much in the lead-up to these decisions being made.
Click to expand...

I do agree with these 2 points. The others are Newnes and Ramsey, but lets see.
 
Last edited:
Jimmae said:
After tonight, absolutely no one can look at the retention of Cottrell and elevation of Gibbons and consider that smart list management under the circumstances. Hindsight is one thing, but I said as much in the lead-up to these decisions being made.

Retaining Newman without confirmation of re-rookie changes also looks decidedly dumb too, but I'd go a step further and suggest we shouldn't have retained him at all given the glut of small/medium midfielders we need to be able to rotate through the team.

Tired of these nervous decisions from our football department that hamper our ability to bring in quality talent. Tonight the price was one or both of Eddie Ford and Isaiah Winter. Kolar will probably be off the board before we make a rookie pick.
Click to expand...

The retention of those players have nothing to do with bypassing the draftees you mentioned, as we could have taken all 3 in the draft/s
 

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

So many young kids now with talent to burn, but so little spots to fill. I'm really happy with where we are right now. The young ones will be burning to show what they can do and that extra bit of competitiveness needed to even get a look into playing the 1s will be great for development.

21yo and younger:
1. TDK
2. Dow
3. LOB
4. Stocker
5. Kemp
6. Philp
7. Ramsay
8. Durdin
9. Carroll
 
Arr0w said:
Unfortunately Austin didn't achieve his goals
Click to expand...
Often I agree with you but I think your wrong on this one mate. Theres a lot of things that suggest we knew what we were after and got it.

And I am not just talking during the draft...going back over weeks..the things that were said..the absence of panic trading up the order..Teagues nodding interview where he clearly knows what he wants and how to get it .... Austin also made it clear on strategy
 
Blue and Blue said:
Often I agree with you but I think your wrong on this one mate. Theres a lot of things that suggest we knew what we were after and got it.

And I am not just talking during the draft...going back over weeks..the things that were said..the absence of panic trading up the order..Teagues nodding interview where he clearly knows what he wants and how to get it .... Austin also made it clear on strategy
Click to expand...

See above
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Remove this Banner Ad

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Back
Top