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List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

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Arr0w said:
The retention of those players have nothing to do with bypassing the draftees you mentioned, as we could have taken all 3 in the draft/s
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We had 3 senior list spots, and I'm referring to bringing in 4 players. I've also been referring to bringing in names like Tom Murphy, Sproule, Atley and Eggomoleese-Smith.

I do not rate Cottrell, and I don't think the club really does either because they've just spent considerable resources to bring in 4 players that should sit over the top of him on any depth chart he'd be involved in.

Tell me we couldn't have done the following instead:

Delist: Cottrell, Kennedy, Newman
Re-rookie: Newman
Retain: Gibbons

I would have gone a step further than that, but do you honestly think our midfield, forward or defensive depth would have been hampered by this decision, and (Cottrell aside) less athletically challenged footballers could have been brought in to train up to execute our system?

I could respect football clubs making decisions on an individual's psychological profile and propensity to succeed, if they weren't so ****ing bad at it beyond the bleedingly obvious, as evidenced by the sheer number of late draft and rookie success stories, as well as first round failures. Clubs need to figure out that they have a cultural and educational role that extends beyond their endless crusade to grab four points, and think seriously about all the talent they bypass or throw on the scrap heap.

Apparently the incentive of being a productive talent factory that fuels a high-achieving team and grows the game as a whole isn't incentive enough. Currently, we do none of those things well, arguably not even to an AFL standard. Not a bright bunch, is the AFL fraternity.
 
Jimmae said:
We had 3 senior list spots, and I'm referring to bringing in 4 players. I've also been referring to bringing in names like Tom Murphy, Sproule, Atley and Eggomoleese-Smith.

I do not rate Cottrell, and I don't think the club really does either because they've just spent considerable resources to bring in 4 players that should sit over the top of him on any depth chart he'd be involved in.

Tell me we couldn't have done the following instead:

Delist: Cottrell, Kennedy, Newman
Re-rookie: Newman
Retain: Gibbons

I would have gone a step further than that, but do you honestly think our midfield, forward or defensive depth would have been hampered by this decision, and (Cottrell aside) less athletically challenged footballers could have been brought in to train up to execute our system?

I could respect football clubs making decisions on an individual's psychological profile and propensity to succeed, if they weren't so ******* bad at it beyond the bleedingly obvious, as evidenced by the sheer number of late draft and rookie success stories, as well as first round failures. Clubs need to figure out that they have a cultural and educational role that extends beyond their endless crusade to grab four points, and think seriously about all the talent they bypass or throw on the scrap heap.

Apparently the incentive of being a productive talent factory that fuels a high-achieving team and grows the game as a whole isn't incentive enough. Currently, we do none of those things well, arguably not even to an AFL standard. Not a bright bunch, is the AFL fraternity.
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Pretty sure similar things were said about Tigers, Lions, Saints before hitting the 8

While I have been critical of certain selections ahead of others, we have improved our deficiencies over the last 5 years, speed, athleticism and kicking skills

Culturally, it is a juggling act, as retaining certain types of character and leadership is just as important as identifying raw talent
 
Arr0w said:
Pretty sure similar things were said about Tigers, Lions, Saints before hitting the 8

While I have been critical of certain selections ahead of others, we have improved our deficiencies over the last 5 years, speed, athleticism and kicking skills

Culturally, it is a juggling act, as retaining certain types of character and leadership is just as important as identifying raw talent
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I don't rate where the Saints are at personally, but they still targeted more of a speed/endurance blend than we have. Richmond have long been selecting athletic projects that we have bypassed. Lions are the same too.

We don't share the same talent ID philosophies of those three clubs.

Culturally, we seem to be more entranced by a cohesive locker room than building anything that genuinely puts the club and its ideals ahead of the playing group, and that's always going to undermine us. There are players within the group who are trying to drive the way of thinking I'm describing, but they shouldn't be doing it by themselves, with coaches playing favourites for flimsy reasons and tactical incompetence, and a CEO who too readily meddles in player acquisition without a clear purpose pertaining to his own organisational responsibilities and skill set.

One or two of these issues, I'm fine with so long as they're acknowledged and attempted to be addressed, but we're approaching double digits.
 
.
Brackets said:
Lot of talk about his game against Bombers. I just rewatched first half - where he got 19 of his 28 possessions.

In each quarter he only had 5 minute bursts through the middle. It just so happened that he had a productive period in this time, and was effective as a HF pushing up the ground.

I didn't bother with the second half, but 7 of his 9 possessions were in/around forward 50, suggesting he wasn't effective for any period as a mid.

It's not as though he hasn't had runs through the middle in other games, he just so happened to be effective in this game for a half. He's been given the opportunity but he's just not consistent. That game is probably overstated as an example that he should play majority mid, given he didn't.

I think that's he's go - HF, pushing up with bursts through the middle. He can easily find space and we should be using him as a link player more.
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Yeah and as I’ve said before all our half forwards need to be given the licence to push up the ground and work back rather than being stuck at home waiting to implement the press.

Gibbons, Cunners and Fish all play there best footy when allowed to push up as high half forwards and get involved as the extra at the stoppages and more importantly involved in the chains running back toward goal, it makes them better and makes us better on transition, Stanton as the stoppages/transition coach needs to fight harder for these players to be able to be used more in this area.
 

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THE_GUN said:
Curious to know how a coach actually does this with young men 18+ and most likely 21+ with the players that you are speaking about.
what would you recommend for the coach to do to get more mongrel into these players.
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Fight Club, but we can’t talk about fight club or confirm or deny that such exists or doesn’t exist as it may be. 😜
 
Will take a stab at the new Jumper Numbers, because why not:

6 & 8 - Retired for 12 months
16 - Mick Gibbons (vacates 40)
26 - Lachie Fogerty
29 - Zac Williams
37 - Corey Durdin
38 - Jack Carroll
39 - Matt Cottrell (vacates 46)
40 - Luke Parks
42 - Adam Saad
45 - TBD (Train on Player)
 
Jimmae said:
I don't rate where the Saints are at personally, but they still targeted more of a speed/endurance blend than we have. Richmond have long been selecting athletic projects that we have bypassed. Lions are the same too.

We don't share the same talent ID philosophies of those three clubs.

Culturally, we seem to be more entranced by a cohesive locker room than building anything that genuinely puts the club and its ideals ahead of the playing group, and that's always going to undermine us. There are players within the group who are trying to drive the way of thinking I'm describing, but they shouldn't be doing it by themselves, with coaches playing favourites for flimsy reasons and tactical incompetence, and a CEO who too readily meddles in player acquisition without a clear purpose pertaining to his own organisational responsibilities and skill set.

One or two of these issues, I'm fine with so long as they're acknowledged and attempted to be addressed, but we're approaching double digits.
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Again, the same things were said about the mentioned clubs until they hit and entrenched themselves in the 8

You could have the most athletic, gifted players on the list, but is they lack the right character they will achieve little

I completely agree that some selections over the course of the rebuild have been perplexing, but the same can be said for all clubs

I think we will get a better idea come the end of next year
 
Arr0w said:
You could have the most athletic, gifted players on the list, but is they lack the right character they will achieve little
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Absolutely, and while statistical regression and analysis can give some form of insight to this, it is not the only method that should be pursued, nor should a player (particularly a young player) have his entire fate written in stone by such methods.

We genuinely seem to be lost on how to evaluate certain positions, and how we can develop players further. That speaks to deep lack of general intelligence within the organisation.
 
Jimmae said:
Winder was on the board, we had list space, end of story. Why we didn't like the kid, I don't know, but historically we will have either had character or homesickness concerns. Where we differ from many clubs, is that we are very risk-averse in that space.
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Are we though? Betts, Garlett, Yarran all from unsettled backgrounds, we've taken five Irishman, an American, a Uruguayan, a Papua New Guinean, a volley baller, a dude named Clem, Tasmanians, gingers...we even took a Tasmanian ginger. And a fat kid from WA with a first round pick.
 
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Brutalitops said:
Ideally 200+ imo as 200+ forwards seem to be the trend. But I suppose if theyre quick enough and clever enough the height part becomes negotiable.
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If you have the right third tall interceptor you get away with a lot in height of your key back and can have a more mobile backline .. this is where marchbank is so important to us going forward -- probably also why Melbourne struggle when lever is the second tall --
 
Jimmae said:
We had 3 senior list spots, and I'm referring to bringing in 4 players. I've also been referring to bringing in names like Tom Murphy, Sproule, Atley and Eggomoleese-Smith.

I do not rate Cottrell, and I don't think the club really does either because they've just spent considerable resources to bring in 4 players that should sit over the top of him on any depth chart he'd be involved in.

Tell me we couldn't have done the following instead:

Delist: Cottrell, Kennedy, Newman
Re-rookie: Newman
Retain: Gibbons

I would have gone a step further than that, but do you honestly think our midfield, forward or defensive depth would have been hampered by this decision, and (Cottrell aside) less athletically challenged footballers could have been brought in to train up to execute our system?

I could respect football clubs making decisions on an individual's psychological profile and propensity to succeed, if they weren't so ******* bad at it beyond the bleedingly obvious, as evidenced by the sheer number of late draft and rookie success stories, as well as first round failures. Clubs need to figure out that they have a cultural and educational role that extends beyond their endless crusade to grab four points, and think seriously about all the talent they bypass or throw on the scrap heap.

Apparently the incentive of being a productive talent factory that fuels a high-achieving team and grows the game as a whole isn't incentive enough. Currently, we do none of those things well, arguably not even to an AFL standard. Not a bright bunch, is the AFL fraternity.
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After the hub year I would of been nervous who I moved -- maybe they see relationships that should be preserved -- sometimes that means more to the group .. once we have a stand alone VFL having a full season delisting players will become self explanatory .. bringing back Moore for a chance and letting him play in VFL side may of been a strategic move .. I would hope there are 28-32 players that the coaches and management really want and some of the others are gel .. I am probably wrong but as a business person this is how I would assume it works
 

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Jimmae said:
Winder was on the board, we had list space, end of story. Why we didn't like the kid, I don't know
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Didn't every club pass on him though till the 2nd last pick? I don't know much about the kid, but im genuinely interested in what you know, that every other recruitment team in the AFL doesn't..
 
FRUMPY said:
Jack Martin was putrid in front of goal in big moments (either kill the game or get us back into it) - choked massively a number of occasions, not as much as the skipper but bloody close. In general i reckon he was slightly overrated for his output this year - sure was great in quite a few games, really good in a few more, serviceable in a few more and pretty ordinary in about 5-6 games. Needs to get it another 5-6 times a game (and probably will with qtrs going back to 20 mins :think: ) - thought he went missing too often in quite a few games.
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Faded out late after the bye like several others - match committee gets away with it in a truncated 2020, heads should roll if the mistake is repeated in a 'normal' season next year
 
Jimmae said:
That's an absurd contrast to shift all that into: Winder's non-selection has nothing to do with Saad. Saad also doesn't have elite skills, and that's very well documented and evidenced.

What's additionally absurd is that you treat the pick as fixed currency. Don't pot my ability to analyse when you're turning a game of chess into checkers.
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So, you took all that to be about Winder. You are being single minded in your analysis. If a new recruiting team is erring on the side of caution, that’s natural for anyone in a new position. Of course Winder non selection had nothing to do with Saad, I had fingers and toes crossed we would take him in the ND. Clearly 17 teams disagreed. I like our haul, addressed needs with the available value and got a slider who everyone rates. Your gripe seems to be about Winder, keep griping, I’ll enjoy what we have.

BTW: Saad ranks as elite for disposals at 18.8 and metres gained at 408.8. He ranks as above average in kicks 11.8, handballs 7.0 and tackles at 2.0 while playing every game. Not sure any of the kids available at pick 8 do that for us and help to propel Carlton back to the finals in the immediate future. That’s my argument.
 
KohPhi said:
Didn't every club pass on him though till the 2nd last pick? I don't know much about the kid, but im genuinely interested in what you know, that every other recruitment team in the AFL doesn't..
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Even Mick Ablett who is in charge of WA development program (and who loves to pump up WA kids that he has a role in their development) thought he should probably only be a rookie selection at best. It’s dangerous to base all opinions on highlight packages.
 

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BigBreakfast said:
So, you took all that to be about Winder. You are being single minded in your analysis. If a new recruiting team is erring on the side of caution, that’s natural for anyone in a new position. Of course Winder non selection had nothing to do with Saad, I had fingers and toes crossed we would take him in the ND. Clearly 17 teams disagreed. I like our haul, addressed needs with the available value and got a slider who everyone rates. Your gripe seems to be about Winder, keep griping, I’ll enjoy what we have.

BTW: Saad ranks as elite for disposals at 18.8 and metres gained at 408.8. He ranks as above average in kicks 11.8, handballs 7.0 and tackles at 2.0 while playing every game. Not sure any of the kids available at pick 8 do that for us and help to propel Carlton back to the finals in the immediate future. That’s my argument.
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Your common sense, application of a rational thought process and solid back up of statistical data is unwanted in these parts.

sdf-4.gif
 
Kramer1 said:
Are we though? Betts, Garlett, Yarran all from unsettled backgrounds, we've taken five Irishman, an American, a Uruguayan, a Papua New Guinean, a volley baller, a dude named Clem, Tasmanians, gingers...we even took a Tasmanian ginger. And a fat kid from WA with a first round pick.
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I recognise you're mixing your point in with some whimsical references, but not one of those names has come in the last two administrations.

The later the draft gets, the more we pick meat and potatoes players, with a low risk of being incompetent at state/reserve level, rather than players with multiple elite attributes.

Our rookie list and late pick success stories have dried up compared to the competition.

KohPhi said:
Didn't every club pass on him though till the 2nd last pick? I don't know much about the kid, but im genuinely interested in what you know, that every other recruitment team in the AFL doesn't..
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That was never the implication. He offers a skill set we sorely need, and we've decided he's not worth the risk. West Coast immediately made a different decision.

In any other draft, these are decisions being made at the end of the 3rd round. Is our list looking balanced enough, and firing on enough cylinders that we should be satisfied to pass on that sort of talent?



On his best behaviour here for the most part, but what's the issue with his character? Biggest football issue I see with him are the consistency of his first few steps, but I'd be pretty confident that would get ironed out in a professional environment.

Kid can play, and frankly looks like he'll play in his first year.

Stamos said:
36 on the senior list, 5 Cat A rookies (including Kennedy), 1 Cat B.
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Ok then, take a look at the teamboard in my signature and point out any errors, because I'm seeing 37/4/1.

We ended the season 39/6/1, we cut 3 rookies, 8 off the senior list, elevated one player: 32/2/1

We brought in 3 players in players via trade and free agency, 2 via the national draft, 1 via the rookie draft, 1 re-rookie: 37/4/1

What am I getting wrong?

BigBreakfast said:
So, you took all that to be about Winder. You are being single minded in your analysis. If a new recruiting team is erring on the side of caution, that’s natural for anyone in a new position. Of course Winder non selection had nothing to do with Saad, I had fingers and toes crossed we would take him in the ND. Clearly 17 teams disagreed. I like our haul, addressed needs with the available value and got a slider who everyone rates. Your gripe seems to be about Winder, keep griping, I’ll enjoy what we have.

BTW: Saad ranks as elite for disposals at 18.8 and metres gained at 408.8. He ranks as above average in kicks 11.8, handballs 7.0 and tackles at 2.0 while playing every game. Not sure any of the kids available at pick 8 do that for us and help to propel Carlton back to the finals in the immediate future. That’s my argument.
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Yeah sure, the part of my post where I switch to talking about the ability to trade draft picks is entirely about Winder, and not about your blockhead opinion on drafting Nik Cox or Zach Reid instead of acquiring Adam Saad.

As for citing common sense and common opinion as evidence of intelligent decision making one way or another: what is common is exactly that, and inherently only that. It is not reflective of intelligent decision making, it is simply what most people are doing.

RE: Saad's stats, we've been over this, a lot: Saad runs a substantial amount of his metres gained, and has a poor success rate disposing into the 50 because of his skill execution, game style and how that would see him forward of centre. His disposal rate runs high because - shock horror - he handballs more than most people that play his position. It's also increased this year comparative to the competition because the shorter quarters advantage his extremely elite anaerobic endurance.

Saad knows his strengths, and knows his limitations. I look forward to you slowly learning about them.

Please show some restraint and not quote me for something like the 10th time in 24 hours with this absolute pabulum, complete with faux-affectionate nickname. Take some time to consider your actual opinion, in depth, then feel free to quote me then. I look forward to actually seeing you properly read one of my posts instead of scrambling to find a way to tell me I'm wrong and being over the top.

Credit to you, by the way: you are uncommon.

KohPhi said:
Your common sense, application of a rational thought process and solid back up of statistical data is unwanted in these parts.

View attachment 1026256
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Well that was an unfortunate piece of timing
 
Christou2Kouta said:
If Harry gets his confidence up and kicks at goal like Levi was early this season, that's probably enough for us to win 2-3 more games. His set shot kicking this year was so deflating in key moments this year. Jack Martin is a technically stunning kick for goal but he also lost his confidence in front of the big sticks and as a result, cost us momentum on a number of key occasions.

I think our youthful and somewhat skinny players got overpowered with the shorter quarters early in the season. We had a number of endurance runners who were getting brushed aside when the heat was on early in the game and we weren't able to exploit our strength in endurance running as the sting died out later in the game because matches were so abbreviated.

It won't take much improvement for us to claim a spot in the finals. Just need to seize the moments.
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Goal kicking went down hill when Sav Rocca left the coaching ranks
 
The point on conservative selections has to be balanced against picks like De Konig, Honey, even Charlie Curnow & the fact the clubs time has run out, we need to climb now. Winder looks great but no interstate club picked him. What don't we know about his personality and development time frame

There is no positive evaluation of Carlton's superior list building philosophy compared to Essendon "all talls" and Collingwood "all smalls" approach
 
What am I getting wrong?


Yeah sure, the part of my post where I switch to talking about the ability to trade draft picks is entirely about Winder, and not about your blockhead opinion on drafting Nik Cox or Zach Reid instead of acquiring Adam Saad.

As for citing common sense and common opinion as evidence of intelligent decision making one way or another: what is common is exactly that, and inherently only that. It is not reflective of intelligent decision making, it is simply what most people are doing.

RE: Saad's stats, we've been over this, a lot: Saad runs a substantial amount of his metres gained, and has a poor success rate disposing into the 50 because of his skill execution, game style and how that would see him forward of centre. His disposal rate runs high because - shock horror - he handballs more than most people that play his position. It's also increased this year comparative to the competition because the shorter quarters advantage his extremely elite anaerobic endurance.

Saad knows his strengths, and knows his limitations. I look forward to you slowly learning about them.

Please show some restraint and not quote me for something like the 10th time in 24 hours with this absolute pabulum, complete with faux-affectionate nickname. Take some time to consider your actual opinion, in depth, then feel free to quote me then. I look forward to actually seeing you properly read one of my posts instead of scrambling to find a way to tell me I'm wrong and being over the top.

Credit to you, by the way: you are uncommon.


Well that was an unfortunate piece of timing
[/QUOTE]
So, let me get this right, by not selecting Winder we are displaying a risk averse nature in drafting and recruiting overall. I agree that we have been risk averse but, there is rarely much risk in footy recruiting these days as kids are immersed in cultural value adding from their earliest days when their talent becomes apparent. There is too much media around to walk on the wrong side of the line and the trigger is pulled if they do: Elijah Taylor, Chris Yarran, Brock McLean...

If we are selecting solid citizens, I’d have though that was a good thing given any elite athlete contains a requisite amount of confidence, arrogance and mongrel to even make it in the first place.

As for your personal attacks, you have proven that you can eloquently elevate a personal affront using anecdote and opinion. This is a common and flawed approach in debating, one that astute judges overlook for justifiable, contextual argument.

Goodnight, farewell and adieu.
 
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