Bluemour Melting Pot XXIX

[katmanblue]

Reckon if **** had of come to us instead of DT. Then right now, we would be 6th or 7th on the ladder imo.

If we got him instead of Bolton we'd be well into the top 4.

 

[katmanblue]

You leave my bass out of this.

You don't like a funky ass line?

 

[norway blue]

You don't like a funky ass line?

Fami says hi ..


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[Accidental genius]

If we got him instead of Bolton we'd be well into the top 4.

FaGan is a very good coach from what we have seen of him at the lions. I do wonder if he was an option around the time Judd and co were looking for a coach. Think he went to lions same year we got Bolton (2016). I do wonder if he was ever in the picture for the blues job and if not why not.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Putting players behind the ball without a plan has meant they are often in the wrong spot.

So we have one less around the ball then opposition easily avoid our plus one. Leading to easy scores against.

No two ways about it, coaching has been sh*t. Now, I am not sure if that's coming from the head coach or from the line coaches not being up to it. Either way responsibility lies with Teauge and ultimately Lloyd.

That’s often a result of the midfield and even half forwards work rate. Richmond have managed to give up one at the stoppages for years because everyone else worked so hard. St Kilda done it last week too them. I really think it’s a mixture of the pressure we put on and coaching.

 

[Stamos]

Just wondering who all this talent is you speak of? I think you are purely basing it on potential rather than actual talent. We have 2 good mids and that is it. Amazing though since Barker gone Kennedy is one to obviously benefit from it. But potential is not talent. No matter which position players are played in effort takes no skill. I guess when players say they just want to play their role it is all just bs. How does a team get to half time and over half the team have not laid a tackle eg Sydney game. The game plan for most part holds up for 90% of the game. Is Teague perfect? By no means is he is not. But when do the players actually take some responsibility?

Well, there's not much potential for a player with no talent. So many of our players have shown ability.
Our issue has been getting them to play consistently, and a good structure and system makes that much easier to achieve. And that's the reason that some teams appear to have 'deep' midfields.
They're well trained to a good system. That in turn builds confidence, and they play better.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

No, they certainly ******* shouldn't.

The tail wags the dog at Carlton, and has for far too long. Let's not lean into that, not again.

Ever had a boss that's no good?

 

[Stamos]

To be honest if the players need to be inspired every quarter to play footy then we probably got the wrong players. A six figured sum should be ample i would of thought. So when we win or look good in quarters its all the players. When we lose its all the coach and nothing to do with players. Yeah ok sounds legit.

Don't know what games you've been watching?

 

[The Fantom]

He has th cattle, is a great guy but Carlton are not finishing top 4 with him as coach.

This is the bit that irks me, not you specifically just in general.

So we become old Carlton again and sack the coach. What guarantees do we have that the next coach succeeds in our “timeline”.

And if the don’t, then what rinse and repeat?

And the cattle also may be there but we’ve never had close to our best 22 on the field to build the synergy that gets you to top 4. Oh how I’d love to have had Brisbane’s injury run the last few years, we’d be talking a different language if we had.

 

[Gethelred]

Ever had a boss that's no good?

I know where you're going with this.

I have something of a thing with my bosses: I do what I'm told, but you don't have to tell me to do everything. It's worked out for all of them; they get to deal with my idiosyncrasies, but they also get the job done and done well.

There's a bit of give and take in every relationship, but the employee/employer relationship is not a coach/player relationship. A player can be a terrific driver of on field standards and achievement, but at the end of things they cannot cannot cannot cannot undermine a coach and a football department the way that has happened at Carlton under Ratten, Malthouse and Bolton. There is every chance this is happening right now under Teague, but there's also every chance that this is where the rot stops.

Let's take this opportunity to break the cyle, instead of perpetuating a huge reason for us underachieving.

 

[2blue4u]

The point is that because they are poorly set up and since they are bereft of a workable, understandable plan they have been able to overcome that deficiency for themselves (because they have had to). That’s where they have been responsible for those wins.

I really do not understand your point here. So the game plan works when the players decide to lift but it does not work when they do not. So who is at fault when our tackle count is way down but the opposition has had a majority of the ball? So does Teague have to go out there and tackle the opposition for the players as well? That game against Sydney and many others were deplorable for work rate from our players running both ways. Is the coach also responsible for turnovers? Poor kicking and decision making from players? A huge portion of scores against us this season has come from the back of poor disposal and decision making. I really think you over rate our players. Personally i never believed this was a finals team at the start of the year and i still do not believe it is. Until our midfield bats deeper than 2 players we will always struggle. Especially considering Cripps has been down for a fair part of the year which leaves our best mid being just 21 years old. I think that says everything.

 

[Magruder]

Not sure Newnes is the example you're looking for - he was a non-entity in his VFL games this year

People will laugh but Newnes physicality, running and relative discipline was important to the game plan, (however flawed the plan might have seemed), earlier in the year.

And it’s equally important now. Bloke does a power of work off the ball.

 

[Magruder]

Well, there's not much potential for a player with no talent. So many of our players have shown ability.
Our issue has been getting them to play consistently, and a good structure and system makes that much easier to achieve. And that's the reason that some teams appear to have 'deep' midfields.
They're well trained to a good system. That in turn builds confidence, and they play better.

This.

 

[2blue4u]

Well, there's not much potential for a player with no talent. So many of our players have shown ability.
Our issue has been getting them to play consistently, and a good structure and system makes that much easier to achieve. And that's the reason that some teams appear to have 'deep' midfields.
They're well trained to a good system. That in turn builds confidence, and they play better.

I am still wondering what all this talent is you speak of? Which players? Who is all our midfield talent?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

So, when these mid aged, foot soldiers such as Newnes and Newman continue to be selected, it's not at the expense of ignoring youth, because these foot soldiers would be amassing big numbers at the lower level, more than we are seeing from younger players in the same environment. And before people state that, the longer they remain at VFL level, they become VFL players, despite different eras, it didn't hurt the likes of Dipper, Tuck and more recently Tom Mitchell when he was pushing out big numbers with the NEAFL Swans.

This has been my gripe. People talk about the younger and older players and how we favour older players at the expense of younger players development. I see it completely differently, we are trying to develop the kids properly, what we do with Newnes, Murphy, Betts etc is irrelevant. It’s what we do with the kids that is important. We have consistently rewarded very good VFL form. Stocker has one great game and gets in, Parks has a few good games and gets in, Cottrell plays well gets a great run at it, Owies and Kennedy’s consistency has been rewarded. I think people want to reward the kids handy VFL performances because they are frustrated but that is extremely short sighted imo. They need to be developed properly and throwing them into the AFL when they are only handy VFL level players has constantly failed us. We stuffed up trying to give Dow AFL experience when he wasn’t ready and had to play him out of position because he was a liability in the midfield and the entire sides development suffered because we were trying to develop an individual. This is what frustrates me, we talk about the environment when developing players but then also seem happy to weaken it by playing players who are way off the pace in extremely important roles.
Looking at Stocker the last two weeks he is starting to get a lot more productive type roles and I think that’s a hope with most of our players we bring in. unfortunately in the past most are too far off the pace that it just doesn’t work when we give them more responsibility.

Setterfield on the wing this season though is inexcusable.

 

[RoyalBlues]

I really do not understand your point here. So the game plan works when the players decide to lift but it does not work when they do not. So who is at fault when our tackle count is way down but the opposition has had a majority of the ball? So does Teague have to go out there and tackle the opposition for the players as well? That game against Sydney and many others were deplorable for work rate from our players running both ways. Is the coach also responsible for turnovers? Poor kicking and decision making from players? A huge portion of scores against us this season has come from the back of poor disposal and decision making. I really think you over rate our players. Personally i never believed this was a finals team at the start of the year and i still do not believe it is. Until our midfield bats deeper than 2 players we will always struggle. Especially considering Cripps has been down for a fair part of the year which leaves our best mid being just 21 years old. I think that says everything.

The point was related to your question- when do players take responsibility?

It’s when they have been fired up and responded.

Responsibility for losing? a further question - that falls to the players somewhat but very much to the head coach.

A focus on ‘natural attributes’ and ‘an attacking style’ had early feel good results in 2019.

Now it results in heavy goal scoring runs by opposition teams (only lessened when Jones and Weitering are intercepting well) or if we are running hard and linking up well (only sustainable for patches in games).

Generally though there is an individualistic self-survival mode, players are played out of position, some are on the fringe permanently (Kennedy, Dow, Petrevski-Seton, Setterfield).

There is no discernible overall team-first system - and that is coaching, in the game.

 

[2blue4u]

The point was related to your question- when do players take responsibility?

It’s when they have been fired up and responded.

Responsibility for losing? a further question - that falls to the players somewhat but very much to the head coach.

A focus on ‘natural attributes’ and ‘an attacking style’ had early feel good results in 2019.

Now it results in heavy goal scoring runs by opposition teams (only lessened when Jones and Weitering are intercepting well) or if we are running hard and linking up well (only sustainable for patches in games).

Generally though there is an individualistic self-survival mode, players are played out of position, some are on the fringe permanently (Kennedy, Dow, Petrevski-Seton, Setterfield).

There is no discernible overall team-first system - and that is coaching, in the game.

No team system but all i hear every week is the players bang on about how they are team first bla bla bla. Our first game against Richmond 88 points of the 105 Richmond scored were from turnovers. Poor decision making and poor skills. That trend has continued all year. I am still waiting for someone to name all this talent we have on the list that are ready to go. I can not believe people actually rate our list so highly.

 

[The Blueseum]

First 42 games as coach.

Teague = 18 wins
Fagan = 9 wins

 

[HereComesJuddy]

I know where you're going with this.

I have something of a thing with my bosses: I do what I'm told, but you don't have to tell me to do everything. It's worked out for all of them; they get to deal with my idiosyncrasies, but they also get the job done and done well.

There's a bit of give and take in every relationship, but the employee/employer relationship is not a coach/player relationship. A player can be a terrific driver of on field standards and achievement, but at the end of things they cannot cannot cannot cannot undermine a coach and a football department the way that has happened at Carlton under Ratten, Malthouse and Bolton. There is every chance this is happening right now under Teague, but there's also every chance that this is where the rot stops.

Let's take this opportunity to break the cyle, instead of perpetuating a huge reason for us underachieving.

Unfortunately, there's no give and take currently with teague as compared to your workplace. Everyone should be included in the review. Its the only way to see the club for what it is.

What the reviewers do with the info is then up to them

 

[HereComesJuddy]

First 42 games as coach.

Teague = 18 wins
Fagan = 9 wins

Means nothing.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I hate being an impatient "sack the coach" kind of a guy and realise it hasn't been easy with many players in and out.

But there are fundamental issues with the gameplan, particularly defensively, the efforts of Jones and Weitering have been spectacular but we are still losing.

There is no system behind the ball, we need to dominate 100% of the game to win, a 5 minutes down patch can be 4 goals against.

At no point in Teagues tenure has a 30 point lead been safe, even against Adelaide at home they got within a goal.

He has th cattle, is a great guy but Carlton are not finishing top 4 with him as coach.

Until we actually start getting some depth and quality bottom 6 players onto our list/starting 22, we ain't finishing top 4, no matter what the game plan is or who is coaching us.

How many of our current available best 22 would get a game at the Dogs or Dees right now ? 5 or 6. Tops.

 

[RoyalBlues]

No team system but all i hear every week is the players bang on about how they are team first bla bla bla. Our first game against Richmond 88 points of the 105 Richmond scored were from turnovers. Poor decision making and poor skills. That trend has continued all year. I am still waiting for someone to name all this talent we have on the list that are ready to go. I can not believe people actually rate our list so highly.

More highly than 14th - I watch all of our games and much of the media associated with us and the AFL and I can’t say I have heard our players say they are ‘team first’ specifically- more so that they are ‘aware of deficiencies’ and‘ working hard on them’

There’s undeniable talent to build on:

McKay, Walsh, Cripps, Weitering, Saad, Docherty, Martin, De Koning. . . C Curnow.

Players of lesser obvious natural ability slot into strongly organised and coached teams to look much better. (eg Sydney, Brisbane)

 

[Arr0w]

First 42 games as coach.

Teague = 18 wins
Fagan = 9 wins

You are not suggesting it's more about the team/list, than a coach?

 

[KnobHead]

No team system but all i hear every week is the players bang on about how they are team first bla bla bla. Our first game against Richmond 88 points of the 105 Richmond scored were from turnovers. Poor decision making and poor skills. That trend has continued all year. I am still waiting for someone to name all this talent we have on the list that are ready to go. I can not believe people actually rate our list so highly.

Our turnovers ain’t great to watch, but wouldn’t necessarily put it down to lack of talent. A poor game plan (which we have) can make players look far worse than what they are. Likewise, a great game plan can make average players look better than what they are.

I’m not sure where our list sits, but I’m reluctant to do a list rebuilt until we have a good game plan and a better culture. A lot of our fringe players may start to shine in the right environment. Look at Dow last week - his disposal has been trashed, but there was nothing wrong with it last week when the team was switched on.


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[Arr0w]

Means nothing.

Everything means something