Autopsy Rd 17 Blues undersized and overwhelmed

[Iamcarlton]

Geelong had Cameron out, we have the colman medal leader, none of Geelong's big forwards fired and we got smashed because we still were not good enough. Because our skills let us down badly. Trust me Casboult’s 7odd hitouts and half a goal would have made no difference. Curnow would have.

Yes I found it interesting Casboult out and the lack of structure call came .
Taking a look at Geelong and they had 1 goal from a tall forward Ratagulea .
Another from their ruckman Stanley and the rest from smalls/runners .
Game is won on the ground not the air if your team can't kick and chase your doomed to the lower end of the table .

 

[gab213]

When 13 of your first 14 shots on goal are points that’s between the ears, nothing to do with coaching or tactics or being undersized or playing players we shouldn’t or playing players out of position or any other reason you might want to come up with.

None of it means much at the end of the day. It's quite simple, we were beaten by a much better team than us which most rational people were expecting. To make it worse we go into the game undermanned and then bad kicking for goal as well, which afflicted both teams, right?


Edit to add* There's way too much over analysis going on imo, trying to pick apart every action by a player on the ground. The game wasn't made to be dissected like this. We aren't Gridiron where NFL is more like a game of chess than a football code.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

Gary Lyon says he's never seen a defender play Hawkins as well as Weiters did...

Did "magnificent" Weitering set a new benchmark in guarding Tom Hawkins?

“I just thought Weitering … his positioning on Tom Hawkins was superb."

www.sen.com.au

And yes, in THIS instance we care about Gary Lyon's opinion...

Goalless for first time this season and scoreless for first time in 36 matches, god bless Weiterbot and his programming.

 

[Arr0w]

I dislike comparing down. Why not aspire to being inside the top 4 for shot conversion, instead of sitting inside the bottom 6?

Yes.

Demons have only just gotten out of their funk, realised that they're strong. They've still a distance to be as good as they should be, and they've dropped games due to inconsistent kicking at goal.

We have seen, twice, that Fremantle are mentally weak. They got pulverized against us early in the season because Fyfe and Lobb were out and they were away; each excuse they had for the result battered away at them like a gale, and they dropped their heads and kicked themselves out of the game.

Against us, with finals on the line, they proceed to kick 4 behinds in the first term and 8 behinds before their first goal. When we kick like that, we are criticized and criticize ourselves; why should they be any different?

One more thing...

This is an eminently fixable thing. It requires hours of extra training per player during preseason and during the season, but goalkicking does not need to be high intensity for it to work. The reason why players like Eddie and Fev (and Dunstall, and Gunston, and Breust; I can go on) were such good shots and had such magnificent goalsense isn't because they're freaks or have a supernatural ability to know where the goals are. It's because above other players and outside of regular training, they practiced it. Trick shots. Ranges. Snaps. Bananas. Torps. Dropkicks. Into the wind. With the wind. Hundreds to thousands of shots.

So, why don't clubs do it? Because there's other demands on their time, and because they feel that other factors can solve the problem. It isn't as though clubs don't practice goalkicking, and our club is as you say not the worst; it may simply not be seen as the colossal ******* issue it is, or at least not as much of an issue as other things.

But goalkicking has actively lost us games we would otherwise have won. Dot the I's, cross the T's, then worry about such complexities as a zone defense.

Think all sides can lament, losing games to poor goal kicking. Only way to lift that considerably is drafting/trading better users by foot.

 

[Broadside]

Think all sides can lament, losing games to poor goal kicking. Only way to lift that considerably is drafting/trading better users by foot.

Or practice goal kicking more?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Coaches' Votes

10 - Samuel Walsh (CARL)
8 - Zach Tuohy (GEEL)
6 - Tom Stewart (GEEL)
2 - Jacob Weitering (CARL)
2 - Mark O'Connor (GEEL)
1 - Cameron Guthrie (GEEL)
1 - Isaac Smith (GEEL)


Can't believe Weiters only got 2

Stewart was okay, but no chance Weiters was behind him.. and it prob says a bit about DT if he didn’t value what he did as IMO he was clearly our best.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

You would assume by those votes that Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

49

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

did not give Weiters a vote, disgraceful.

 

[Arr0w]

Or practice goal kicking more?

Back to basics is always sound

 

[thylacine60]

Geez, you rule easy, Kyle.

Rile, I meant rile, ffs!

 

[Gethelred]

Think all sides can lament, losing games to poor goal kicking. Only way to lift that considerably is drafting/trading better users by foot.

But - and I know you know this - it isn't about drafting good users.

SPS can kick. Williams can kick. Dow has been shown to hit targets, now he's fit enough to run even if he's still not fit enough. We have as many first round picks on our list as any club in the AFL, and people don't get drafted in the first round if they cannot dispose of the ball. I could go through the list player by player, and document those players for whom disposal was a strength prior to being drafted. It isn't about being a good or a bad user.

You, me, all of us would be able to remember that bloke. You know the one. He sits at full forward in the twos, and kicks a bag every week. He's in no danger of promotion, because he doesn't train anymore. He's overweight, but he's strong and knows when and where to lead. And you know what? His kicking technique is ****ing awful. He's got a rubbish old ball drop, and he can stuff up the simplest kicks; it's part of why the coaches keep him away from the drills, let him do his thing.

The thing with him is, you get him within his range, and he simply never misses. Because all he does if he practices at all is take shots on goal.

They might be flat punts. They might float, or be mongs, or come off the boot ugly as ****. Doesn't matter, as long as they sail through the sticks.

I get that we cannot do that, but what I don't get is why the club wouldn't focus at least some of their time and their player's time to solving something that - frankly - is a plug and go addition to the list. Simply becoming an excellent shot at goal functions as a 3-5 goal improvement of us as a team a game, without changing any other variables.

Then, we can talk about how disposal is a function of skills drilling, and how despite having drafted so many players with ball use as a strength we don't use the ball well at all.

This is part of why all of it comes back to coaching, and how an awful lot of this can change if the right things are changed.

 

[Gethelred]

Stop trying to tell everyone what to do..

We're enough of a nanny state as it is..
You want to try and take away people passion for their club also?

If supporters want to boo Henderson & Tuohy, let them boo Henderson & Tuohy..
They didn't care they were laughing and got the last laugh on the day anyway..

Go Football!!!

I have a bit of an odd question. Do you recognise that by taking the position 'stop trying to tell everyone what to do', you are in fact telling everyone what to do?

 

[Arr0w]

But - and I know you know this - it isn't about drafting good users.

SPS can kick. Williams can kick. Dow has been shown to hit targets, now he's fit enough to run even if he's still not fit enough. We have as many first round picks on our list as any club in the AFL, and people don't get drafted in the first round if they cannot dispose of the ball. I could go through the list player by player, and document those players for whom disposal was a strength prior to being drafted. It isn't about being a good or a bad user.

You, me, all of us would be able to remember that bloke. You know the one. He sits at full forward in the twos, and kicks a bag every week. He's in no danger of promotion, because he doesn't train anymore. He's overweight, but he's strong and knows when and where to lead. And you know what? His kicking technique is ******* awful. He's got a rubbish old ball drop, and he can stuff up the simplest kicks; it's part of why the coaches keep him away from the drills, let him do his thing.

The thing with him is, you get him within his range, and he simply never misses. Because all he does if he practices at all is take shots on goal.

They might be flat punts. They might float, or be mongs, or come off the boot ugly as fu**. Doesn't matter, as long as they sail through the sticks.

I get that we cannot do that, but what I don't get is why the club wouldn't focus at least some of their time and their player's time to solving something that - frankly - is a plug and go addition to the list. Simply becoming an excellent shot at goal functions as a 3-5 goal improvement of us as a team a game, without changing any other variables.

Then, we can talk about how disposal is a function of skills drilling, and how despite having drafted so many players with ball use as a strength we don't use the ball well at all.

This is part of why all of it comes back to coaching, and how an awful lot of this can change if the right things are changed.

Good kicks as juniors, normally remain good kicks, while others that are poor, can improve, but never elite.

Worpel was a poor kick, improved slightly, but still poor

Zac Bailey was elite, still is

I would get Sav back as the kicking coach.

On the other hand, many players have worked with sports psychologists, well, they do say excercusion is 80% above the shoulders

 

[JustaBattler]

You would assume by those votes that Chris Scott did not give Weiters a vote, disgraceful.

It is a compliment to Weitering that he gave Scott the sh**s and his player is 'competing' directly with Weitering for a position ion teh other meaningless selection game call AA - what a nonsense that is Australia doesn't play any other Counbtry in AFL - just another BS marketing exercise.

 

[jezza25]

I can't imagine what the cats will throw at Walsh to get him across.

They already have. He knocked them back.

 

[Gethelred]

Good kicks as juniors, normally remain good kicks, while others that are poor, can improve, but never elite.

Worpel was a poor kick, improved slightly, but still poor

Zac Bailey was elite, still is

I would get Sav back as the kicking coach.

On the other hand, many players have worked with sports psychologists, well, they do say excercusion is 80% above the shoulders

I would hire a ball movement expert, and make them senior assistant or head coach. I would be watching Fremantle and Essendon like a mother****ing hawk for whether they fire Longmuir or Caracella, and pick up both the second they become available. I would revamp training in its entirety to ensure that ball movement sits at the centre of everything done, in order to do three times the ball skills we are now in targeted way. If people are handpassing, they're instinctively handpassing into the corridor; if people are going to run past the ball carrier, they're doing so corridor side; if people are kicking long down the line, they're not doing so from the genuine centre of the ground but from true CHB to give you time to transfer the ball back through the flanks into the corridor before going inside forward 50.

And if you need to concede ground to do it, who gives a continental? This isn't rugby, in which you're not allowed to pass in a particular direction.

I would like the club to have a brand of football week in, week out. If Teague and the football department play the brand of football we played against Geelong last week - outside of the inaccurate kicking; I'm talking about running in groups and moving the ball by hand to create space and draw the tackler - then I am all for retaining him and them as head coach and football department. If we simply go back to a rabble creating a gameplan on the fly every week, I'm done with the lot of them.

Not because I'm getting impatient, but because the sense of system under Teague has disappeared.

 

[JustaBattler]

I would hire a ball movement expert, and make them senior assistant or head coach. I would be watching Fremantle and Essendon like a mother******* hawk for whether they fire Longmuir or Caracella, and pick up both the second they become available. I would revamp training in its entirety to ensure that ball movement sits at the centre of everything done, in order to do three times the ball skills we are now in targeted way. If people are handpassing, they're instinctively handpassing into the corridor; if people are going to run past the ball carrier, they're doing so corridor side; if people are kicking long down the line, they're not doing so from the genuine centre of the ground but from true CHB to give you time to transfer the ball back through the flanks into the corridor before going inside forward 50.

And if you need to concede ground to do it, who gives a continental? This isn't rugby, in which you're not allowed to pass in a particular direction.

I would like the club to have a brand of football week in, week out. If Teague and the football department play the brand of football we played against Geelong last week - outside of the inaccurate kicking; I'm talking about running in groups and moving the ball by hand to create space and draw the tackler - then I am all for retaining him and them as head coach and football department. If we simply go back to a rabble creating a gameplan on the fly every week, I'm done with the lot of them.

Not because I'm getting impatient, but because the sense of system under Teague has disappeared.

14 behinds in a row is a bridge too far mate. Pretty much sums up the fact that both players and coaching haven't shown improvement - again. Teague can be as supportive and believing as he likes - but at the end of the day the bets that the management in charge and Teague and his crew have made have been found wanting - just facts.

Tough position to be in for all concerned.

 

[forever blue 1]

You play the better sides and you get to see what's wrong with your side.

I said it in the preseason and nothing has changed, our will to chase and pressure and our terrible kicking is the issue.

Horrid field kicking. Horrid goal kicking. Lack of effort to chase. McKay is embarrassing, an AFL full forward who can't kick from 30m out in front of goal and has a terrible approach in his technique. Owies who had had an issue kicking for goal from 35+ and clearly has not worked on it. Ed Curnow who just turns it over and allows the opposition to defend. Newnes a poor kick. Setterfield a poor kick, poor runner, average skills and being played out of position. Dow who will not chase.

Then you play a lesser side next week and these guys look ok and get away with it. This is why games like this need to be taken more into account with list management.

Who ever coaches, what ever game plan we have, nothing will work if we have blokes who can't kick or won't chase.

What are our positives ?

 

[Sector 7G]

Yes I found it interesting Casboult out and the lack of structure call came .
Taking a look at Geelong and they had 1 goal from a tall forward Ratagulea .
Another from their ruckman Stanley and the rest from smalls/runners .
Game is won on the ground not the air if your team can't kick and chase your doomed to the lower end of the table .

The ball didn't get to ground for our small forwards (Samo's first goal aside) because they were intercept marking. Tall's don't need to mark everything they just need to half the contest.

Harry had a man on his back shoulder and a man 10m in front of him. If the ball was kicked high his direct opponent grounded him and the spare was able to mark. It was always going to be a tough night for him.

 

[gbatman]

What are our positives ?

The defence, some improvement in our youth. Our tall stocks with Curnow returning and Kemp coming on.

 

[gbatman]

Yes I found it interesting Casboult out and the lack of structure call came .
Taking a look at Geelong and they had 1 goal from a tall forward Ratagulea .
Another from their ruckman Stanley and the rest from smalls/runners .
Game is won on the ground not the air if your team can't kick and chase your doomed to the lower end of the table .

Bingo! Going small exposes our inability to kick and to some extent run. Teams have won flags with smaller forward lines, our team carries too many poor kicks so we need to be tall to be a chance because it's harder to hit a Silvagni or an Owies leading hard in a zone than it is to just go long to McKay or Levi.

 

[Gethelred]

Bingo! Going small exposes our inability to kick and to some extent run. Teams have won flags with smaller forward lines, our team carries too many poor kicks so we need to be tall to be a chance because it's harder to hit a Silvagni or an Owies leading hard in a zone than it is to just go long to McKay or Levi.

It also doesn't help that Jack is the one we want to do most of the kicking.

 

[Arr0w]

Yes I found it interesting Casboult out and the lack of structure call came .
Taking a look at Geelong and they had 1 goal from a tall forward Ratagulea .
Another from their ruckman Stanley and the rest from smalls/runners .
Game is won on the ground not the air if your team can't kick and chase your doomed to the lower end of the table .

Seen this a number of times weekly, yearly, tall players didn't kick x amount of goals, didn't kick that many in a GF, etc

Then you look at the leading goal kickers at the end of the year and 80% or more of the top 10 are talls.

Also, If only there was a stat of how many times one of those tall forwards ensured there wasn't an intercept mark, bringing the ball to ground if they didn't mark the ball, allowing a non tall to capitalize

Point in case, Esava had mare in regards to marks and goals, but how many times was he out marked?

Give me 2 KPF's and a decent 3rd tall forward, every time

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Just don’t get booing an ex-player for any reason. Get some may see it as parochial, but don’t see it that way.

Imagine if you saw someone you used to work with and they started booing you because you changed jobs. Be pretty strange. Think it’s time to move on from seeing players as something other than people making a living and wanting to be happy. They’re like the rest of us.

And for those that see it as parochial, on the one hand Hendo is booed yet Harry is praised. But if Hendo didn’t go there would be no Harry.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

By that logic, it would also be very odd for 50k people to turn up to my work and cheer me on.
Therefore, we should stop cheering and probably just stop going to games.
It's so far removed from an everyday job that it's pointless comparing.
It's entertainment, but it's also different from other forms of entertainment like TV, movies, music. The audience gets emotionally invested from an early age and rides every high and low.
It's part of the atmosphere. As long as it doesn't cross any boundaries and fall into the category of abuse. Standing at the fence or the race hurling obscenities or drinks is just caveman-like.

 

[Sector 7G]

Bingo! Going small exposes our inability to kick and to some extent run. Teams have won flags with smaller forward lines, our team carries too many poor kicks so we need to be tall to be a chance because it's harder to hit a Silvagni or an Owies leading hard in a zone than it is to just go long to McKay or Levi.

Unfortunately not only were we small in the forward line but slow as well. Compare Betts, Owies, SOS, Martin (normally speedy but currently on 1 leg) and Fogarty to Richmonds forwards in 2017 Rioli, Butler, Costagna, Caddy and Townsend. The ball comes out of our forward line too easily due to lack of pressure. The lack of speed makes the margin for error on kicks smaller as even if the Tigers missed there kicks inside 50 they were able to lock it in.

Desperately need Honey in there

 

[Iamcarlton]

Seen this a number of times weekly, yearly, tall players didn't kick x amount of goals, didn't kick that many in a GF, etc

Then you look at the leading goal kickers at the end of the year and 80% or more of the top 10 are talls.

Also, If only there was a stat of how many times one of those tall forwards ensured there wasn't an intercept mark, bringing the ball to ground if they didn't mark the ball, allowing a non tall to capitalize

Point in case, Esava had mare in regards to marks and goals, but how many times was he out marked?

Give me 2 KPF's and a decent 3rd tall forward, every time

Bit late on reply, yes weve had this debate a few times .

I think we agree on forward setup just the makeup is maybe where the differences are dont know .
Your philosophy seems to be correct me if im wrong just play 3 talls forward whatever the quality of the player because STRUCTURE .
My argument has never been dont play 3 talls at all but only if they are quality and/or contribute at ground level .
Unless you have players around immobile players such as Cas that are very good pressure forwards which we dont your giving up an advantage to your opposition through easy fwd 50 exit .

Add inadequte 2 way run of our midfield and its just piling pressure on the backline .
Teagues inability to mix up the makeup in trying to find a balance that will pressure the opposition more has been ordinary imo .
But that probably comes back to the breakneck pace game plan also .

There are way way less genuine 1 on 1 aerial contests as there was 20 years ago.
This has made mobility at ground level of your players more important .

We had no problems scoring v geelong despite giving Geelong the +1 in our forwardline despite our low inside 50 count through much of the game .
We where scoring on almost every entry for a good part of the game sadly they where points .

We see more talls in the goalkicking leaderboard and you know this because many more direct entries go to the quality talls than the the other forwards inside 50 .

But If you plonked Casboult at FF instead of Mckay with the same amount of entries do you think Cas is leading the Coleman?

Which is most likely one of the reasons players like Macreadie and Goddard in particular and BSOS where let go as they are just not adequate replacements when injuries occur to your first choice talls .
Trouble with this is it exposes the seconds to players having to play tall when its not their go .
Williamson comes to mind .

You simply cant achieve decent forward pressure with imo the farcical selections of both Murphy and Casboult in the sides forwardline together this year .

The selections of both Murphy and Casboult in the same forwardline then the continued playing of Cas has been Teagues biggest mistakes this year imo .
Along with the go fast at all cost mentality which you have highlighted on many occasions that he has only tweaked in the last few weeks .