Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I understand the introversion as I'm much the same, he clearly isn't an extrovert, when he speaks it's quite considered, there's no doubt about that at all. I understand sitting back and observing, I spent the first few years on this board doing that to take in what is what and who is who As I said, I wasn't criticising him but he can be prickly as well. He's been like that from when he was a kid.

I feel like he grew up with a lot of expectations that came with the name. He was part of a pretty special group of players too, and those guys knew how to win football games. He is probably a no nonsense type. Jack is more of a considered, serious, knuckle down type too. Strong family values and make every effort to insulate themselves from outside noise.

 

[gab213]

I feel like he grew up with a lot of expectations that came with the name. He was part of a pretty special group of players too, and those guys knew how to win football games. He is probably a no nonsense type. Jack is more of a considered, serious, knuckle down type too. Strong family values and make every effort to insulate themselves from outside noise.

Very strong family values, very driven and they like to do it their way, that doesn't always lend itself to easy collaboration.

 

[Gethelred]

I can only think of one cut that was even debatable, and it's only debatable due to Marchbank's horror run with injuries.

There are four players who left Carlton to go to other clubs when SOS arrived, and through the first few years (for the purposes of this argument): Yarran, Gibbs, Henderson, Tuohy.

Henderson had Geelong in his ear all season, and we more or less just let it happen because we wanted draft picks; we can be happy that it worked out the way it did (Weitering, Charlie AND Harry, Cuningham) but we can look at it a complete other way. Do we need to pick up a second KPD if we've still got Henderson working as Weitering's offsider? Tuohy was traded to Geelong for Billy Smedts and a future first, with a second going to Geelong; that future first was sent to GWS for Marchbank. Can you honestly say to me that Tuohy - who plays on Geelong's wing as much as he plays defense - would not have been more useful than yet another KPD that - I remind you - we don't need due to the redevelopment of Jones and the retaining of Henderson?

We get to Gibbs. We've done this one to death; he asked out super late, after Adelaide approached the media and told them Gibbs wanted out. SOS stuck to his guns, and Gibbs produced his best season for us that year. Are you truly telling me that you don't think we could've turned him around? That, instead of offering another salary dump that kind of ridiculous money, we couldn't have offered him more to keep him around? It was about family, the media reports said

Uh-huh. Money talks.

My question is, if we keep those three players and don't trade for McGovern, we all of a sudden have a few different options from a trading perspective and we look more attractive due to not having traded out a myriad of durable B+ players in favour of throwing a bunch of 18-19 year old high ceiling small bodied mids at the rest of the comp. Do we pick up Jack Steele ahead of St Kilda, because we're winning more games? Do we pick up Dylan Shiel?

On one hand, the what ifs pile up, but the point I'm making is this: I understand why SOS did what he did, and to a certain extent I can get behind his thinking. He's much more of an expert in this than I am. But I take leave to suggest a potential alternate route, in which we didn't fall so hard or so far, and in so doing losing never became part of the DNA of this side.

Winning has an effect on culture all of its own.

 

[gab213]

There are four players who left Carlton to go to other clubs when SOS arrived, and through the first few years (for the purposes of this argument): Yarran, Gibbs, Henderson, Tuohy.

Henderson had Geelong in his ear all season, and we more or less just let it happen because we wanted draft picks; we can be happy that it worked out the way it did (Weitering, Charlie AND Harry, Cuningham) but we can look at it a complete other way. Do we need to pick up a second KPD if we've still got Henderson working as Weitering's offsider? Tuohy was traded to Geelong for Billy Smedts and a future first, with a second going to Geelong; that future first was sent to GWS for Marchbank. Can you honestly say to me that Tuohy - who plays on Geelong's wing as much as he plays defense - would not have been more useful than yet another KPD that - I remind you - we don't need due to the redevelopment of Jones and the retaining of Henderson?

We get to Gibbs. We've done this one to death; he asked out super late, after Adelaide approached the media and told them Gibbs wanted out. SOS stuck to his guns, and Gibbs produced his best season for us that year. Are you truly telling me that you don't think we could've turned him around? That, instead of offering another salary dump that kind of ridiculous money, we couldn't have offered him more to keep him around? It was about family, the media reports said

Uh-huh. Money talks.

My question is, if we keep those three players and don't trade for McGovern, we all of a sudden have a few different options from a trading perspective and we look more attractive due to not having traded out a myriad of durable B+ players in favour of throwing a bunch of 18-19 year old high ceiling small bodied mids at the rest of the comp. Do we pick up Jack Steele ahead of St Kilda, because we're winning more games? Do we pick up Dylan Shiel?

On one hand, the what ifs pile up, but the point I'm making is this: I understand why SOS did what he did, and to a certain extent I can get behind his thinking. He's much more of an expert in this than I am. But I take leave to suggest a potential alternate route, in which we didn't fall so hard or so far, and in so doing losing never became part of the DNA of this side.

Winning has an effect on culture all of its own.

As far as Gibbs goes Geth, there are some things that are more important than money in this world. The well-being of his family means more. If his wife was struggling with being so far from her family support system after having a child, the extra money means ZERO.

Your take on this is very black and white, life isn't like that, we are dealing with people, not chess pieces.

As much as I would have liked Gibbs to stay I have the utmost respect for him as a person for the decision he took.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Very strong family values, very driven and they like to do it their way, that doesn't always lend itself to easy collaboration.

I think this is ideal for the role he was in. If your job depends on who we recruit, you have to be able to do it unhindered.

Still, as an assistant coach, he had to answer to a head coach and footy department manager and seemed to manage it without getting sacked.

 

[gab213]

I think this is ideal for the role he was in. If your job depends on who we recruit, you have to be able to do it unhindered.

Still, as an assistant coach, he had to answer to a head coach and footy department manager and seemed to manage it without getting sacked.

I wish I could find the news article from the time SOS left St.Kilda talking about why he was leaving.
It was more or less something to the effect of Ross being a difficult guy to work under and saving their friendship, something along those lines. All of his closest friends, Ross, LoGiudice, Dadoro, are all pretty much cut from the same cloth but yes, introverts too.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Could of possibly made a good Head of Football as well...
But that bridge is likely still burnt with Liddel still at the helm...

 

[gab213]

Could of possibly made a good Head of Football as well...
But that bridge is likely still burnt with Liddel still at the helm...

Maybe he could HAVE, but I'm happy for SOS just to be father of Jack for now. If we are looking for a new Head of Football after the review there are a few people out there who probably could do the job well.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I wish I could find the news article from the time SOS left St.Kilda talking about why he was leaving.
It was more or less something to the effect of Ross being a difficult guy to work under and saving their friendship, something along those lines. All of his closest friends, Ross, LoGiudice, Dadoro, are all pretty much cut from the same cloth but yes, introverts too.

Ross Lyon also says that SOS won't be going coaching:
"He goes with my blessing; he's been a great supporter to me. He'll do something, but he's not going coaching. I think he's seen enough to know he doesn't want to coach," Lyon said.

Stephen Silvagni leaving St Kilda

Just heard on the radio that the great SOS is finishing up at St Kilda at the end of the year. Great chance for us to bring him back home to the club he loves. Let's hope this is the plan. Just look how well drilled the St Kilda defence is. Assistant coach or senior coach straight away?

www.bigfooty.com

He went to GWS as List Manager after that. Perhaps, he had hopes of learning the ropes as a List Manager and getting back to Carlton in time for Jack to get selected. Seems feasible.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Maybe he could HAVE, but I'm happy for SOS just to be father of Jack for now. If we are looking for a new Head of Football after the review there are a few people out there who probably could do the job well.

Yeah, but who. Lloyd was a very underwhelming selection from day dot. I accepted it on faith.

 

[gab213]

Stephen Silvagni leaving St Kilda

Just heard on the radio that the great SOS is finishing up at St Kilda at the end of the year. Great chance for us to bring him back home to the club he loves. Let's hope this is the plan. Just look how well drilled the St Kilda defence is. Assistant coach or senior coach straight away?

www.bigfooty.com

He went to GWS as List Manager after that. Perhaps, he had hopes of learning the ropes as a List Manager and getting back to Carlton in time for Jack to get selected. Seems feasible.

I do think that it was always his intention to be involved at Carlton at the time that his sons were of draft age.

 

[gab213]

Yeah, but who. Lloyd was a very underwhelming selection from day dot. I accepted it on faith.

I mentioned it in another thread, Buckley, Pyke, even Scott even though I'd prefer Scott as coach if we make a change. These guys all have a good understanding of how football clubs work and also a good knowledge of coaching requirements.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Again...

You've misinterpreted what I've said in an effort to find something to argue with. Go shake your jowls at someone that cares about your opinion.


More misinterpretation.

Next time you put words I haven't said in my mouth, I'm laying charges, and that's being generous.

...

The past has a way of informing the future, especially when people seek to ignore it and damn the torpedoes.

There's no misinterpreting going on here. You're clearly trying to present the past failings of club legends as evidence that bringing in other past club greats will lead to the same failed result...

I pointed out that a lot of things SOS did has worked out fairly well. Not everything he did turned to gold, but certainly for the most part he put our list in good stead. Yet you went on some rant about how he culled too many and picked up too many skinny mids with a "high ceiling"... still waiting to see who you reckon these mids are...

Nevertheless, SOS's tenure will not be seen as a failure by most, whether you disagree or not.

No, you're misinterpreting my posts and quoting specific sentences shorn of context in order to disagree with me.

I think you need to look up the definition of logic and the definition of flaw up, because at best you've exposed flaws in inductive reasoning.

You clearly have no respect for my responses, seeing as you feel yourself free to disassociate the words I use from their meanings.

As for 'let it slide', you wondered why I might form the impression you're a bit anxious for a fight?

I haven't disassociated anything, nor have I taken anything out of context. You've been trying to make the case that the club should seek outsiders because bringing in past club greats hasn't worked and probably won't work because they've been away from footy for too long.

In a nutshell, that is your argument and in a nutshell it is flawed logic.

And again with the fight thing... if I was anxious to have a fight with you, you'd know about it. It's a discussion forum. You chimed in with your opinion when i wasn't even talking to you, which is fine... but then you got annoyed that I challenged your opinions and decided to try and get smart because that's your nature. Now you're throwing a tanty because I've dissected everything you said and shown you that your arguments are flawed.

 

[Stamos]

There are four players who left Carlton to go to other clubs when SOS arrived, and through the first few years (for the purposes of this argument): Yarran, Gibbs, Henderson, Tuohy.

Henderson had Geelong in his ear all season, and we more or less just let it happen because we wanted draft picks; we can be happy that it worked out the way it did (Weitering, Charlie AND Harry, Cuningham) but we can look at it a complete other way. Do we need to pick up a second KPD if we've still got Henderson working as Weitering's offsider? Tuohy was traded to Geelong for Billy Smedts and a future first, with a second going to Geelong; that future first was sent to GWS for Marchbank. Can you honestly say to me that Tuohy - who plays on Geelong's wing as much as he plays defense - would not have been more useful than yet another KPD that - I remind you - we don't need due to the redevelopment of Jones and the retaining of Henderson?

We get to Gibbs. We've done this one to death; he asked out super late, after Adelaide approached the media and told them Gibbs wanted out. SOS stuck to his guns, and Gibbs produced his best season for us that year. Are you truly telling me that you don't think we could've turned him around? That, instead of offering another salary dump that kind of ridiculous money, we couldn't have offered him more to keep him around? It was about family, the media reports said

Uh-huh. Money talks.

My question is, if we keep those three players and don't trade for McGovern, we all of a sudden have a few different options from a trading perspective and we look more attractive due to not having traded out a myriad of durable B+ players in favour of throwing a bunch of 18-19 year old high ceiling small bodied mids at the rest of the comp. Do we pick up Jack Steele ahead of St Kilda, because we're winning more games? Do we pick up Dylan Shiel?

On one hand, the what ifs pile up, but the point I'm making is this: I understand why SOS did what he did, and to a certain extent I can get behind his thinking. He's much more of an expert in this than I am. But I take leave to suggest a potential alternate route, in which we didn't fall so hard or so far, and in so doing losing never became part of the DNA of this side.

Winning has an effect on culture all of its own.

Firstly, 4 players is hardly that deep and hard, especially when one of them requested a trade home 2 years in a row.

Henderson got us Harry McKay, I can't believe you're questioning that move at all. He's a player who Geelong delisted, and picked up again onto the rookie list. And he got us the guy who's leading the Coleman and will almost certainly the AA Full Forward this year.
Yarran was poached, had major issues, and never played again after leaving us.
I also can't believe you're suggesting that we should have offered Gibbs more money, after he took the bulk of his contract in the first 2 years, then tried to walk out.

Which brings us to Tuohy, the only one that is even debatable.
He's a good player, but he's a HBF, was inconsistent and over-paid, and is turning 32 this year when we're not even making finals. Moving him on is only debatable due to the absolute horror run of injuries that Marchbank has suffered, broken neck, severe bone bruising in his knee and then the ACL. It's only a hindsight call.

 

[BigFrizz36]

I do think that it was always his intention to be involved at Carlton at the time that his sons were of draft age.

Would have to go back and look at it to get the specifics but there was a Mike Sheehan (open mike) interview on fox prior to him coming back to the club.

My memory was that he was very ambivalent about ever coming back and his sons playing at Carlton. You could tell he was upset at the club still from his playing days and how it all ended up so messily.

Clearly MLG taking over changed things. I'm sure that there are others who remember it better than me as it was probably 5 years since I've seen it.

Just a note for those interested they are showing the diesel one tomorrow (Tuesday) at 8.30 p.m.

 

[gab213]

Would have to go back and look at it to get the specifics but there was a Mike Sheehan (open mike) interview on fox prior to him coming back to the club.

My memory was that he was very ambivalent about ever coming back and his sons playing at Carlton. You could tell he was upset at the club still from his playing days and how it all ended up so messily.

Clearly MLG taking over changed things. I'm sure that there are others who remember it better than me as it was probably 5 years since I've seen it.

Just a note for those interested they are showing the diesel one tomorrow (Tuesday) at 8.30 p.m.

They are all on youtube too, I have been watching them again recently, good value.

 

[gab213]

Jacko, was the best one...
He was before my time... Don't know if he is all for show or genuinely has a screw loose...

BOTH. He's as mad as a cut snake as well as loving to put on a show. I've had dealings with him after he retired, he was a customer of mine. Could be very amusing but mental as anything you've ever seen at the same time.

A good person to have in your corner though.

 

[DangerousD]

There are four players who left Carlton to go to other clubs when SOS arrived, and through the first few years (for the purposes of this argument): Yarran, Gibbs, Henderson, Tuohy.

Henderson had Geelong in his ear all season, and we more or less just let it happen because we wanted draft picks; we can be happy that it worked out the way it did (Weitering, Charlie AND Harry, Cuningham) but we can look at it a complete other way. Do we need to pick up a second KPD if we've still got Henderson working as Weitering's offsider? Tuohy was traded to Geelong for Billy Smedts and a future first, with a second going to Geelong; that future first was sent to GWS for Marchbank. Can you honestly say to me that Tuohy - who plays on Geelong's wing as much as he plays defense - would not have been more useful than yet another KPD that - I remind you - we don't need due to the redevelopment of Jones and the retaining of Henderson?

We get to Gibbs. We've done this one to death; he asked out super late, after Adelaide approached the media and told them Gibbs wanted out. SOS stuck to his guns, and Gibbs produced his best season for us that year. Are you truly telling me that you don't think we could've turned him around? That, instead of offering another salary dump that kind of ridiculous money, we couldn't have offered him more to keep him around? It was about family, the media reports said

Uh-huh. Money talks.

My question is, if we keep those three players and don't trade for McGovern, we all of a sudden have a few different options from a trading perspective and we look more attractive due to not having traded out a myriad of durable B+ players in favour of throwing a bunch of 18-19 year old high ceiling small bodied mids at the rest of the comp. Do we pick up Jack Steele ahead of St Kilda, because we're winning more games? Do we pick up Dylan Shiel?

On one hand, the what ifs pile up, but the point I'm making is this: I understand why SOS did what he did, and to a certain extent I can get behind his thinking. He's much more of an expert in this than I am. But I take leave to suggest a potential alternate route, in which we didn't fall so hard or so far, and in so doing losing never became part of the DNA of this side.

Winning has an effect on culture all of its own.

Just to add something small to this, as I’ve see you post reference to Steele a few times, during the trade period in which he left, he was discussed quite a bit here, many asked if we were in to him. An ITK poster, posted that SOS didn’t rate him and we weren’t interested.

Not saying he would have come, but we weren’t interested.

 

[katmanblue]

win at all costs, treat people like garbage!

Are we Amazon now?

 

[katmanblue]

I gas.

 

[DangerousD]

They are all on youtube too, I have been watching them again recently, good value.

Loved the Capper one, thought it was great

 

[BigFrizz36]

Jacko, was the best one...
He was before my time... Don't know if he is all for show or genuinely has a screw loose...

Bit of both. That episode was a bit over the top. The diesel one is good.

 

[Gethelred]

...



There's no misinterpreting going on here. You're clearly trying to present the past failings of club legends as evidence that bringing in other past club greats will lead to the same failed result...

I pointed out that a lot of things SOS did has worked out fairly well. Not everything he did turned to gold, but certainly for the most part he put our list in good stead. Yet you went on some rant about how he culled too many and picked up too many skinny mids with a "high ceiling"... still waiting to see who you reckon these mids are...

Nevertheless, SOS's tenure will not be seen as a failure by most, whether you disagree or not.



I haven't disassociated anything, nor have I taken anything out of context. You've been trying to make the case that the club should seek outsiders because bringing in past club greats hasn't worked and probably won't work because they've been away from footy for too long.

In a nutshell, that is your argument and in a nutshell it is flawed logic.

And again with the fight thing... if I was anxious to have a fight with you, you'd know about it. It's a discussion forum. You chimed in with your opinion when i wasn't even talking to you, which is fine... but then you got annoyed that I challenged your opinions and decided to try and get smart because that's your nature. Now you're throwing a tanty because I've dissected everything you said and shown you that your arguments are flawed.

Uh-huh.

You would do better to self-examine a little, seeing as you're still trying to make me argue with you, and you are still putting words into my posts which aren't there.

 

[thylacine60]

Carlton’s pursuit of Adam Cerra has hit a snag

Sam Edmund with the latest trade report.

www.sen.com.au

 

[Gethelred]

Carlton’s pursuit of Adam Cerra has hit a snag

Sam Edmund with the latest trade report.

www.sen.com.au

What snag? How has it suddenly hit a snag that's been around there the entire ******* time? How is it a 'snag', when it's the whole environment for the trade in which to take place?

This is stupid. That isn't an article, it's barely 300 words, and it's surrounded by more advertising than there is article. If you were to do a word count, you'd find more words in the ads than the article. If you were to do a check to see how many data points or how much information there is in that article, you'd say that there's 2 at best, all of it stuff we knew already.

I didn't want to click on it, but it is exceedingly difficult to criticize something you haven't read, but I'm actually kind of livid now. What a phenomenal waste of time that was! I'm not going to get the barely 10 seconds of my life I spent reading the bloody thing back, and I'm furious with myself for clicking on it.

For *'s sake, footy is one of the most interesting sports on the ******* planet; how can they reduce it down to being so utterly boring?