When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

[Gethelred]

It's my view. I've read multiple media reports of it being the situation that split the board/selection panel on Ross and it logically makes sense to me.

That's why your post was begging the question.

It's not a view that goes against legal or justice system rulings if you're thinking of conflating the discussion into "Why can you have an opinion and speculate when others can't?"

You're welcome to your opinion. Merely holding an opinion does not protect it from criticism, which is what you were complaining about here:

Some of us are pretty annoyed that we might miss out on a coach who was very keen and seemed like a great fit because of this. Anyone with that opinion is usually lambasted.

 

[faible]

I think Ross was almost perfect for our list and I loath 'politics' and 'agendas' (for want of better descriptors) being involved heavily in sport.

Carlton Respects | Gender equality for the prevention of violence against women.

Not quite the perfect fit for the Carlton Organisation though.

 

[Kings of Lygon]

That's why your post was begging the question.

You're welcome to your opinion. Merely holding an opinion does not protect it from criticism, which is what you were complaining about here:

I've never had a problem with people critiquing or disagreeing with opinions. I should have clarified that I meant unfairly lambasted.

Most of the time, people have disagreed by going down the path of ideological criticism that requires leaps toward illogical conclusions and cheap drive bys that essentially amount to "you don't respect women if you hold this or that opinion".

Carlton Respects | Gender equality for the prevention of violence against women.

Not quite the perfect fit for the Carlton Organisation though.

As I've posted several times, Ross has never been sanctioned or had any action taken against him that prove or even suggests he poses a risk to female safety in the workplace or would challenge gender equality values.

 

[faible]

As I've posted several times, Ross has never been sanctioned or had any action taken against him that prove or even suggests he poses a risk to female safety in the workplace or would challenge gender equality values.

There's more than enough smoke to suggest he's not someone people running that organisation would want associated with the club. Whether he's been legally sanctioned or not. He's damaged goods.

 

[Kings of Lygon]

There's more than enough smoke to suggest he's not someone people running that organisation would want associated with the club. Whether he's been legally sanctioned or not. He's damaged goods.

You're welcome to think that of course.

I've explained very clearly why I think kowtowing to the court of public opinion of some on this is a mistake and why I'm disappointed. 'Smoke' around the situation does nothing to convince me and I don't think there's really much more to discuss.

 

[faible]

You're welcome to think that of course.

I've explained very clearly why I think kowtowing to the court of public opinion of some on this is a mistake and why I'm disappointed. 'Smoke' around the situation does nothing to convince me and I don't think there's really much more to discuss.

Of course you don't.

You're comfortable that an organisation run by the Carlton Football Club, that directly deals with respectful treatment of women, should have no issues whatsoever with someone who made a confidential settlement regarding allegations of inappropriate conduct towards a woman in a workplace.

 

[Rich01]

Voss should be their choice from here.

Clarkson was the dream and they went for it.

Lyon would be the instant fix to address the lethargy and culture issues amongst some of the playing group. But he didn’t want to go through the process, which was important that Sayers continued to adhere to. I can understand Lyons view. He wouldn’t want to be beaten in the process by an untried coach.

Voss would have learnt a lot since his Brisbane gig. He’s experienced and respected. And had history with various clubs.

Macrae would have been the pick of the coaches but they missed on him.

Kingsley wouldn’t be too far behind and would be a good pickup. I question whether he is strong enough to stand up to the board, as it’s obvious Mathesons influence is still strong. But his credentials as an assistant are third only to Macrae and Voss.

Whoever they go with needs to be given 5 years.

 

[Kings of Lygon]

Of course you don't.

You're comfortable that an organisation run by the Carlton Football Club, that directly deals with respectful treatment of women, should have no issues whatsoever with someone who made a confidential settlement regarding allegations of inappropriate conduct towards a woman in a workplace.

Didn't take you long...

Most of the time, people have disagreed by going down the path of ideological criticism that requires leaps toward illogical conclusions and cheap drive bys that essentially amount to "you don't respect women if you hold this or that opinion".

 

[faible]

Didn't take you long...

I mean, it's literally an organisation run by the Carlton Football Club about respectful behaviour to towards women.

You seem pretty comfortable that they should be OK with Lyon being appointed head coach, despite it being at-odds with the exact thing the organisation stands for.

 

[Kings of Lygon]

I mean, it's literally an organisation run by the Carlton Football Club about respectful behaviour to towards women.

You seem pretty comfortable that they should be OK with Lyon being appointed head coach, despite it being at-odds with the exact thing the organisation stands for.

Your own post said they are allegations. Speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ross has never been sanctioned or had any action taken against him that prove or even suggests he poses a risk to female safety in the workplace or would challenge gender equality values.

 

[Gethelred]

I've never had a problem with people critiquing or disagreeing with opinions. I should have clarified that I meant unfairly lambasted.

Do you feel you have been unfairly lambasted for an opinion without evidence that Ross Lyon was rejected or withdrew from the Carlton coaching process because of the sexual harassment suit?

Most of the time, people have disagreed by going down the path of ideological criticism that requires leaps toward illogical conclusions and cheap drive bys that essentially amount to "you don't respect women if you hold this or that opinion".

This seems to me to resemble a strawman, do you have examples?

 

[faible]

Your own post said they are allegations. Speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ross has never been sanctioned or had any action taken against him that prove or even suggests he poses a risk to female safety in the workplace or would challenge gender equality values.

Allegations that resulted in a settlement.

Plenty of reasons why Carlton Respects would think he's not the best person to front the club.

 

[Gethelred]

Your own post said they are allegations. Speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ross has never been sanctioned or had any action taken against him that prove or even suggests he poses a risk to female safety in the workplace or would challenge gender equality values.

You are basing your own opinion on decidedly less.

 

[Freomaniac]

Average of 10 wins a year, 4 finals wins total out of 8 games. No finals since their last loss in 2016.

Bog average. And moaning about everything all the way.

depends on how you see it.

I don't think Brad Scott was that Bad in his 10 years at coaching North. Keep in mind Brad Scott didn't go to a club with a lot of (financial) resources and had some (assistant) coaches on cheap wages.

It would be like me asking you this: If you are a recently retired player aged 30-35, would you want a coaching role at North at $2000 a week or would you want to join a team that has a bigger budget and more money than north such as Carlton, Essendon, Richmond or Collingwood at $3000 or $4000 a week?

 

[EasternTiger]

One has to applaud Carlton for stepping up and doing their bit for equality and social justice.

Not sure they are aware but the current front runner for the job has a history of alleged violence. In fact, it is alleged a member of his party beat the living suitcase out of a woman at a premises which at the time had a current liquor licence.

I am sure this is a mere oversight, and I will email the club either directly or through the organisations legal firm of Browne, Papyrus & Bags to inform them this appointment may be in conflict with their Cralton Respects initiative.

One would hope the 'process' involves a thorough background check and direct questioning of the applicant, even if said applicant has been cleared of any wrong doing.

"Coaching candidate Voss, former Brisbane Lions teammate Simon Black and St Kilda spearhead Fraser Gehrig are among six men facing charges over the violence that erupted at St Kilda's Prince of Wales Hotel on Grand Final eve last year.

Gehrig, 31, will face a charge of unlawful assault on a woman, while Brownlow medallist Black, 28, has been charged with counts of recklessly causing injury and assault by kicking in the early hours of September 29.

The incident could tarnish Voss's coaching hopes"

 

[Kings of Lygon]

Do you feel you have been unfairly lambasted for an opinion without evidence that Ross Lyon was rejected or withdrew from the Carlton coaching process because of the sexual harassment suit?

The next part of that post answers your question here.

An opinion doesn't require evidence by the way. It's just an opinion.

This seems to me to resemble a strawman, do you have examples?

You have access to my posting history and the Carlton board. They are in the bluemour discussion thread and in the next coach thread, responding to myself and others.

You are basing your own opinion on decidedly less.

You are conflating the issue, which I suspect you know.

I am not saying people cannot have opinions. I am disappointed that decisions are potentially being made and barriers put in place for candidates based on innuendo at the club I am a member of, regarding our senior coaching role. I also feel it's beyond inappropriate to expect someone to discuss a matter, which is under a NDA.

Saying that for a fact, that Ross Lyon would be "at-odds with the exact thing the organisation stands for" is unfounded and speculation. Which it is and that's what I was responding to.

 

[adammania9]

Is the Bluemour thread on Carlton's board satire? Has to be, surely

 

[Gethelred]

The next part of that post answers your question here.

An opinion doesn't require evidence by the way. It's just an opinion.

An opinion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and said dismissal can be as offensive or inoffensive as they choose.

You have access to my posting history and the Carlton board. They are in the bluemour discussion thread and in the next coach thread, responding to myself and others.

You have painted the entirety of the responses to you in a particular way. I've read the posts you're complaining about, and the majority of them had more to say than how you've portrayed them.

You are conflating the issue, which I suspect you know.

Your opinion: that Ross Lyon was privately rejected by members of the Carlton coaching panel on the basis of how he has treated women in the past.
The basis for that opinion: vague rumour and innuendo.

Your complaint about others using a lawsuit and an NDA:

Your own post said they are allegations. Speculation. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are basing your opinion regarding this on less than people debating in the other direction.

I am not saying people cannot have opinions. I am disappointed that decisions are potentially being made and barriers put in place for candidates based on innuendo at the club I am a member of, regarding our senior coaching role. I also feel it's beyond inappropriate to expect someone to discuss a matter, which is under a NDA.

I am interested in how much weight you hold for your nonevidenced opinion over speculation over something that can be demonstrated to have happened. I wonder if you do this elsewhere in your life.

Saying that for a fact, that Ross Lyon would be "at-odds with the exact thing the organisation stands for" is unfounded and speculation. Which it is and that's what I was responding to.

The quoted is a statement of opinion. I thought people could have opinions, KOL?

 

[Gethelred]

Is the Bluemour thread on Carlton's board satire? Has to be, surely

This entire website is satire. Didn't you know?

 

[faible]

Lots of happy families at Carlton that he could homewreck.

Marc Murphy likes this

 

[Kings of Lygon]

An opinion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and said dismissal can be as offensive or inoffensive as they choose.

Who is arguing that it cannot? I critiqued them and posted what I thought of them. What's the issue?

You have painted the entirety of the responses to you in a particular way. I've read the posts you're complaining about, and the majority of them had more to say than how you've portrayed them.

Again, you are making this up which is a clear trend for you. I said most of the posts disagreeing did so in the manner that I explained. Nothing about entirety.

Your opinion: that Ross Lyon was privately rejected by members of the Carlton coaching panel on the basis of how he has treated women in the past.
The basis for that opinion: vague rumour and innuendo.

How vague it is is up for debate, but so what? I have never shied away from that it is an opinion of mine. What's the point of all of this?

Your complaint about others using a lawsuit and an NDA:

You are basing your opinion regarding this on less than people debating in the other direction.

Very debatable. Again, what's the point of all of this?

I am interested in how much weight you hold for your nonevidenced opinion over speculation over something that can be demonstrated to have happened. I wonder if you do this elsewhere in your life.

The quoted is a statement of opinion. I thought people could have opinions, KOL?

I think you are interested in trying to 'trip me up' and it's not going very well. You clearly disagree with me and that's fine. All the the mental gymnastics about 'your opinion, my opinion, their opinion' is not required and nothing of substance is really being debated here.

"Something that can be demonstrated to have happened" is simply false if you're referring to any incident relating to Lyon and the female staffer. Were you there? Has either party made a statement of fact about what happened? Pretending that it's factual that Ross broke the law or is a threat to women in any way doesn't make it so.

 

[Freomaniac]

Probably because he has done better than any of your coaches over the last decade?

2010 - 9th
2011 - 9th
2012 - 8th
2013 - 10th
2014 - 6th (PF)
2015 - 8th (PF)
2016 - 8th
2017 - 15th
2018 - 9th
2019 - 12th

Whilst no higher finish than 6th, he was able to get the absolute best out of his team. Evidenced by 2x PF appearances. Imagine Carlton’s list with an approach from a coach like him? It would undoubtedly be a move it or lose it type approach to the group.

You need someone to install a defensive approach, an ability to run hard two ways, and a campaigner to tell people to stay in their lane re off field v on field.

That's not a bad run to be honest.

I wouldn't mind if Fremantle emulate that under Justin Longmuir as coach. Freo have Narrowly missed out on finals in 2020 and 2021 under J-lo. Happy to get 8th in 2022 then 10th in 2023. Then back to back prelims in 2024 and 2025. Hell, I wont mind back to back elimination final wins in 2024-5. Then 8th in 2026 then drop down and rebuild in 2027.

 

[EasternTiger]

Is Gehrig front runner for the job? Maybe we should see if we can throw the kitchen sink at Hardwick. Lots of happy families at Carlton that he could homewreck.

Yeah nah stick with Crazy Vossy. He and Carlton seem like a good fit.

Not sure if you know this but Dimma and Clarko are best mates. Would not surprise if the former advised the latter to steer clear of Carlton after hearing critical intel about the inner workings of the navy blues from new Richmond assistant coach David Teague.

 

[faible]

Pretending that it's factual that Ross broke the law or is a threat to women in any way doesn't make it so.

Who said it was either of those things?

Carlton Respects is about respect towards women.

Do you think the alleged behaviour of Lyon was respectful? Do you think a confidential settlement means he definitely didn't engage in said behaviour?

You're trying to obfuscate that it's very clear to most people why Lyon would not be the preferred coach for a number of people at Carlton as part of the broader organisational goals as a community organisation.

 

[satadaynitefeva]

Well done Bloozers...

Totally out foxed the entire footy world. Projected interest in Clarko, Ross the Boss, Parkin, The Scott sisters, Pyke, Gia and who knows who else.....ALL the while Crazy Vossy was the intended target. Taking this long to secure him only demonstrates the level of detail you have gone into making sure you get this absolutely correct. Amazing strategy.

Very astute by the board.