List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[WalshistheGOAT]

That clip paints most of our defensive group in a poor light.
He conceded goals, how many of them were from a 50:50 ball? Few..

While true my point was not to say Plowman never deserves another game, in my opinion he's fine depth coverage. My point is more that we should be hoping for better options in his position that either provide more offensive potency or are more reliable defensively, in my opinion Cowan is a perfect fit. I happen to think the same about JSOS too despite him being one of my favourite players. While I don't think it's impossible to win a premiership with players in the 22 like Plow and SOS imo a better third scoring option would be more valuable than what SOS brings. Until we find someone who fits that bill though I'm more than happy to have him out there each week.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Clearly your memory is not serving you well.

As I have previously posted degoey and Elliott kicked 6 for the day. Easy to look up the stats. Elliott touched the ball five times for the day and kicked 2.

Your original post had 8 goals kicked on him for the half? Simply not true even if he was playing on both players for the full game. Why make stuff up?

Elliot kicked 2 in the first half and went off injured.
Degoey kicked 4 in the first half.
Hoskin Elliot kicked 1 in the first half
Daicos kicked 1 in the first half.

All of which were while Plowman was playing directly on them as seen in the video. Do I think its ridiculous that under Teague Plowman was isolated that many times? Absolutely. In a better system he'd have a 3rd man coming in to help him. Reality is though Plowman has been exposed many times by these players in the past and that's why he's a whipping boy for many.

But given those facts what am I making up exactly?

 

[BigFrizz36]

Stephenson cooked him IIRC.
Unpressured ball going inside f50 to a quick lead up player whilst your +1 neglects the need to put in work defensively = recipe for disaster.
It's an area that we seemingly improved upon this year.

I do remember this. Actually Stephenson has never kicked more than 3 against us (3, 2 & 2 for pies and 3 and 0 for kangas) but I think that he used to get his goals early against us and set the tone for them zoned one off for them. Generally plow was responsible.

 

[BlueJet]

Elliot kicked 2 in the first half and went off injured.
Degoey kicked 4 in the first half.
Hoskin Elliot kicked 1 in the first half
Daicos kicked 1 in the first half.

All of which where while Plowman was playing directly on them as seen in the video. Do I think its ridiculous that under Teague Plowman was isolated that many times? Absolutely. In a better system he'd have a 3rd man coming in to help him. Reality is though Plowman has been exposed many times by these players in the past and that's why he's a whipping boy for many.

But given those facts what am I making up exactly?

Not directed at you as I do respect your views but the reality is, many don't understand that defence is a team concept & that oftentimes the person left marking the opponent kicking for goal is not responsible for it.
The existence of whipping boys generally reflects the individuals own lack of understanding.

 

[thylacine60]

Are you arguing that if Plowman gets 6 kicked on him, we are going to win a premiership? Are you arguing that more players like spanghar and shattok help you win a premiership?. The base level to win a flag is competitivness. Plowman falls down in that area. That is why, Catoggio, Galt and Collins were not picked in 1979. They were skilled but Jezza thought their failure in the contest exposed Carlton in finals. Competitiveness is why Bortolotto played in 2 premierships in 1981 and 1982. Plowman is not a whipping boy. The assessment of his ability, that he does not compete to the level on 1 on 1's is factual not undue criticism.

well, it is your opinion and your opinion is often riddled with undue criticism so..........

 

[Revenant1995]

 

[thylacine60]

if plowman was delisted paddy dow would just have to retire - too much whipping directed at one player........

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

if plowman was delisted paddy dow would just have to retire - too much whipping directed at one player........

It's true, even through their period of dominance Richmond fans could always blame every mistake and loss on Aarts and Castagna. I'm not sure one man could take the full force of the whipping army

 

[BigFrizz36]

Elliot kicked 2 in the first half and went off injured.
Degoey kicked 4 in the first half.
Hoskin Elliot kicked 1 in the first half
Daicos kicked 1 in the first half.

All of which were while Plowman was playing directly on them as seen in the video. Do I think its ridiculous that under Teague Plowman was isolated that many times? Absolutely. In a better system he'd have a 3rd man coming in to help him. Reality is though Plowman has been exposed many times by these players in the past and that's why he's a whipping boy for many.

But given those facts what am I making up exactly?

Well given the vision that you uploaded;

It only shows Elliott kicking one goal (which was on Plowman) so interesting that you are convinced that the second was kicked on him.

It only shows DeGoey kicking three goals, one of these was as a direct result of a terrible knock on from Jones directly to him, another from a terrible break down up field. To pin all three on Plowman is ridiculous but it seems to suit your purpose in doing so. Not sure how you are certain the fourth one was on him when there is no footage of it.

Hoskin Elliott outmarked Plowman so fair enough.

Daicos bumped Plowman off the ball but as a winger/half back its fairly unlikely that he was playing on him, he was in the same passage of play though.

The facts are that you supplied proof of 6 goals, not 8 - one was unlikely to have been from an opponent and two were from defensive errors that others made that you are keen to make Plows fault.

Your original assertion was that DeGoey and Elliott kicked 8 on him in a half which is made up. I also note that DeGoey and Hoskin Elliott didnt kick a goal in the second half. Mihocek kicked 3 and Mason Cox kicked 2.3. Plowman had 16 touches and a game high 10 marks.

 

[thylacine60]

no-one expects the spanish inquisition and no-one, no-one, can single-handedly absorb the wrath of the entire whipping boy army.........

 

[thylacine60]

carlton "supporter" going to the utmost lengths to show how unsupportable a carlton player is.............

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Not directed at you as I do respect your views but the reality is, many don't understand that defence is a team concept & that oftentimes the person left marking the opponent kicking for goal is not responsible for it.
The existence of whipping boys generally reflects the individuals own lack of understanding.

Yep I agree. If Plowman or any of the other whipping boys are having a poor game imo it's on the coaches to find a solution whether it be switching match ups or adding an extra number etc. The best teams have players that are just as limited as some of our owm but imo they get hidden across the field in roles that allows them to focus on their strengths as footballers better than we have in the past.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Bro

Well given the vision that you uploaded;

It only shows Elliott kicking one goal (which was on Plowman) so interesting that you are convinced that the second was kicked on him.

It only shows DeGoey kicking three goals, one of these was as a direct result of a terrible knock on from Jones directly to him, another from a terrible break down up field. To pin all three on Plowman is ridiculous but it seems to suit your purpose in doing so. Not sure how you are certain the fourth one was on him when there is no footage of it.

Hoskin Elliott outmarked Plowman so fair enough.

Daicos bumped Plowman off the ball but as a winger/half back its fairly unlikely that he was playing on him, he was in the same passage of play though.

The facts are that you supplied proof of 6 goals, not 8 - one was unlikely to have been from an opponent and two were from defensive errors that others made that you are keen to make Plows fault.

Your original assertion was that DeGoey and Elliott kicked 8 on him in a half which is made up. I also note that DeGoey and Hoskin Elliott didnt kick a goal in the second half. Mihocek kicked 3 and Mason Cox kicked 2.3. Plowman had 16 touches and a game high 10 marks.

Look frankly I'm in South America right now and I cannot be arsed going back to a match replay from 2 years ago to provide further evidence one of our players had a stinker... I have no issues with Plowman, he fronts up every week he's needed, tries his hardest and has never looked to be a selfish player. Is he an elite player though? Not even close. People have every right to not want him in the 22 given his history is tainted with plenty of games where he individually stuck out as poor. With that said I'm not sitting here threatening to tear up my membership if he's playing round 1, I just think we have better options who are far more damaging in rebound and have more upside than Plow who imo is probably about ad good as he'll ever be.

 

[Arr0w]

People should go back and view the whole game

Willo was there to play loose man and or cover the leading lanes

Was dropped the following week

 

[AT97]

if plowman was delisted paddy dow would just have to retire - too much whipping directed at one player........

I’m sure Newman would help absorb some of the pressure paddy would feel.

 

[thylacine60]

fair call.....

 

[Jimmae]

Starting midfield:

Cripps
Cerra
Hewett

First choice rotators:

Docherty
Kennedy
Fisher

2nd choice:

Ed Curnow
Acres
Dow
Caroll
Cunners

If there's one part of the ground we have coverage, it's the middle.

Not good enough... can we make it even slower?

 

[bigblueboy]

Not good enough... can we make it even slower?

Williams
Ratten
Brown

 

[Beyond Blue]

Clearly your memory is not serving you well.

As I have previously posted degoey and Elliott kicked 6 for the day. Easy to look up the stats. Elliott touched the ball five times for the day and kicked 2.

Your original post had 8 goals kicked on him for the half? Simply not true even if he was playing on both players for the full game. Why make stuff up?

Elliott got injured early in that game - shoulder I think - after kicking a couple early.

 

[BlueGum]

Williams
Ratten
Brown

Brock McTreacle

 

[Jimmae]

Williams
Ratten
Brown

Brown and Ratten weren't slow. Who are the generational midfielders in the mix here aside from Cripps? Hewett is a better player than Brown IMO, but who is a better player on our list than Ratten?

Also, who were the running players that complimented this? Can you name them?

 

[Catfish blue]

Not good enough... can we make it even slower?

Kennedy and Cripps are slow.
Cerra and Hewett are not slow, but are not fast.
Doch and Fish have pace / evasive.

Kennedy, Cripps or Hewett win first possession and feed it out to Cez, Doch, Fish, Acres, Cunners, Obrien, Saady etc.

It's a good mix. You can't replace Walsh but you fill the position. I'd be much more worried if we lost Weitering.

 

[bigblueboy]

Brown and Ratten weren't slow. Who are the generational midfielders in the mix here aside from Cripps? Hewett is a better player than Brown IMO, but who is a better player on our list than Ratten?

Also, who were the running players that complimented this? Can you name them?

I disagree- both were slow. And certainly wasn’t comparing their playing levels to the current crop - I would have Hewett behind Brown on talent …

Point being that you don’t need express pace in the centre to be highly effective.

We’ve recruited/drafted to get the balance right between inside (where we are elite) and outside (where we are not yet). Pure speed is less important than high speed endurance, where we have multiple options.

 

[katmanblue]

carlton "supporter" going to the utmost lengths to show how unsupportable a carlton player is.............

As is tradition.


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[katmanblue]

People should go back and view the whole game

Willo was there to play loose man and or cover the leading lanes

Was dropped the following week

What? Put in the work rather than go off half-cocked? I doubt many will.