20th AFL Team

[Coolangatta]

You could live to 200 years old and you will never see it

Yeah even I’ve come around to thinking it would never get that big. While a second Tasmania side would be cool, imagine if Port Adelaide or Fremantle didn’t enter the AFL until 50 years after their rivals joined.

That’s the gap the Launceston based side would have, it just wouldn’t work.

Same as a second team in New Zealand, or a regional Victorian team.

I think there are teams in the NFL that are the sole representatives of cities with 7 million + people.

So even when Sydney has 7 million people, it doesn’t mean you put a third team there, or a fourth.

There’s also no reason why you need a third team in WA.

A Canberra team and then by the 2050s or 2060s a NT team and NQ team seems like a good expansion model from a geographical sense.

That would be a pretty good endgame I would’ve thought.

 

[Warwick]

Of course i do

I’m not sure you do.

We’re talking about conferences based on locality, ie like the NFL.

You’re talking about divisions with promotion / relegation ie like European football.

 

[Elite Pete]

Retention is the big issue. Any other than SA3 or WA3 and it will be the issue again.

It will be WA3.

 

[Elite Pete]

A lot of differences but Dolphins show what a rivalry does to a town. Adding another one to SA or WA would be huge and they will be able to retain players

 

[Coolangatta]

Retention is the big issue. Any other than SA3 or WA3 and it will be the issue again.

It will be WA3.

Retention becomes less of an issue if you invest in grassroots development.

NT is too small but Canberra can link up with the Riverina and get enough local talent to combine with them.

Who will support WA3? Maybe the kids of Eagles and Dockers supporters but you have people complaining about there being too many teams.

If that’s the case, shouldn’t the remaining few expansion sides be in new markets that have zilch teams?

 

[Canberra Pear]

Retention is the big issue. Any other than SA3 or WA3 and it will be the issue again.

It will be WA3.

In 2023, there are 40 currently-listed AFL players from Canberra and Southern NSW.

These players are all within the current GWS zone, but Homebush is so far away, Melbourne is even closer to some. So many players don't feel a connection to GWS, as evidenced by three quarters of their Canberra/SNSW connections now playing for other clubs.

Canberra is much closer to the footy hotbed and provides an attractive local option for dozens of players. An easy daytrip from their families. A more rural feel compared to the big metro sides (same as Geelong). And there is potential to play home games in their home towns.

And a Canberra team would actually increase the player pool. A team in Canberra would strengthen player pathways and divert talent that's currently destined for rugbies. The player pool in SA and WA is already pretty maxed out.

Retention for Canberra won't be a problem.

 

[Elite Pete]

Problem is they take away from GWS area and they need all the area they have. I do believe GWS should just move to Canberra for it to be successful. The crowd they had on the weekend was very poor.

Who would support the Dolphins in the NRL… WA3/SA3 would be a marketing issue but with the waiting list West Coast has already and drag even a small percentage of them across would help. Plus they are guaranteed 2/11 home game sell outs as they build.

 

[czns]

Only upside of a WA3 is that it means more games at Optus and Eagles/Dockers will have to travel fewer times each season but other than that it would be a huge failure, there's just no market for a third team here.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Problem is they take away from GWS area and they need all the area they have.

Does it really matter if three quarters of players in your academy move elsewhere? They should be putting that effort into players that'll actually stay.

I do believe GWS should just move to Canberra for it to be successful. The crowd they had on the weekend was very poor.

I don't expect GWS to go anywhere. Greater Western Sydney has the same population as all of WA. I would expect a smaller Victorian club to be moved to Canberra before GWS would be.

I don't think the judgement of round one's crowd is fair. It was ridiculously hot. I've read a few accounts of fans who had tickets and decided against it in the heat. It was still higher than all but one Giants Stadium crowd in 2022. Round three should be a better indicator of where support is at.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Does it really matter if three quarters of players in your academy move elsewhere? They should be putting that effort into players that'll actually stay.



I don't expect GWS to go anywhere. Greater Western Sydney has the same population as all of WA. I would expect a smaller Victorian club to be moved to Canberra before GWS would be.

I don't think the judgement of round one's crowd is fair. It was ridiculously hot. I've read a few accounts of fans who had tickets and decided against it in the heat. It was still higher than all but one Giants Stadium crowd in 2022. Round three should be a better indicator of where support is at.

I don’t think any Victorian clubs will be relocating (or for that matter merging). With AFL distributions, improving finances as well as a very vocal activist membership, it’s very hard to imagine any Directors of Victorian clubs voting to relocate. In fact there’s resistance to even selling a few games interstate, and the primary reasons the Victorians do it is to get enough $, so that these games can eventually be brought back to Victoria.

And completely agree with you about the GWS crowds in the first round.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I don’t think any Victorian clubs will be relocating (or for that matter merging). With AFL distributions, improving finances as well as a very vocal activist membership, it’s very hard to imagine any Directors of Victorian clubs voting to relocate. In fact there’s resistance to even selling a few games interstate, and the primary reasons the Victorians do it is to get enough $, so that these games can eventually be brought back to Victoria.

And completely agree with you about the GWS crowds in the first round.

Exactly, I don't expect any Victorian clubs to relocate, but I think a GWS relocation is even less likely.

 

[Elite Pete]

Couldn’t disagree more.

A Canberra team with GWS still in existence would just be another feeder team for the Vic teams to raid. 0 chance of working imho. Have to pay overs to keep players and it just doesn’t work.

WA3 Clearly has a market. Eagles member waiting list is huge and the price is ridiculous. How do you get them across is the big question. 4/22 rivalry games help.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Couldn’t disagree more.

I agree that we couldn't disagree more.

A Canberra team is one of the best things that could happen for GWS. Just read any criticism of GWS from Sydneysiders and it's always mocking the Canberra relationship. "Where in Greater Western Sydney is Canberra?", "The Manuka short people".

GWS straddling two markets prevents proper buy-in from Western Sydney. There's constant talk that GWS should relocate to Canberra (eg; you, six posts ago). While GWS uses Canberra as a lifeboat, and constant jabs about relocation continue, Western Sydney won't fully embrace them. A Canberra team forces that disconnect and will help GWS grow in Sydney.

A Canberra team with GWS still in existence would just be another feeder team for the Vic teams to raid. 0 chance of working imho. Have to pay overs to keep players and it just doesn’t work.

How would Canberra become a feeder team? I just told you how many players would be close to the Canberra region. Only a third of ACT-born players are with GWS, Canberra would obviously have much better retention than that.

Wagga is almost five hours from Sydney. It's pretty much the same to Melbourne. There's no geographical reason for Riverina players to want to stay in Sydney. Wagga is less than three hours to Canberra, and Canberra would probably play some Riverina games.

Canberra is already the choice for a lot of Riverina people to come to (uni, employment etc). Canberra will be an attractive option for players, too. Players will want to stay to maintain those friend and family connections in a city with a semi-rural feel (similar to Geelong).

WA3 Clearly has a market. Eagles member waiting list is huge and the price is ridiculous. How do you get them across is the big question. 4/22 rivalry games help.

I'm not denying WA has a market, but what does it add? Freo just had 20k free seats against the Roos. Just upgrade Optus Stadium to 70k and make two truly big clubs. Not a big club, a medium club, and a straggler striving to get out of their shadows.

A Canberra team will add more fans and more players to the talent pool, a WA team just shifts the same number around.

 

[Bjo187]

One thing I do like about wa3 is the idea of them having 11 home games, 2 of which will likely be sellouts every year. Looking at the NRL and the introduction of another Brisbane team, I'm reminded of the fact the more teams you have in one location, the more you can double dip on 2 club supporter attendances, at more games.

Without knowing the geography of Perth, I'd locate them as a north of the swan river club, perhaps based in Joondalup. Then play 4 games at the Joondalup stadium, 7 at Optus. Otherwise could do a 7 and 4 split between Optus and the waca.

I still lean towards Canberra, but do think w.a should have 3 sides now with their population.

 

[Elite Pete]

I agree that we couldn't disagree more.

A Canberra team is one of the best things that could happen for GWS. Just read any criticism of GWS from Sydneysiders and it's always mocking the Canberra relationship. "Where in Greater Western Sydney is Canberra?", "The Manuka short people".

GWS straddling two markets prevents proper buy-in from Western Sydney. There's constant talk that GWS should relocate to Canberra (eg; you, six posts ago). While GWS uses Canberra as a lifeboat, and constant jabs about relocation continue, Western Sydney won't fully embrace them. A Canberra team forces that disconnect and will help GWS grow in Sydney.



How would Canberra become a feeder team? I just told you how many players would be close to the Canberra region. Only a third of ACT-born players are with GWS, Canberra would obviously have much better retention than that.

Wagga is almost five hours from Sydney. It's pretty much the same to Melbourne. There's no geographical reason for Riverina players to want to stay in Sydney. Wagga is less than three hours to Canberra, and Canberra would probably play some Riverina games.

Canberra is already the choice for a lot of Riverina people to come to (uni, employment etc). Canberra will be an attractive option for players, too. Players will want to stay to maintain those friend and family connections in a city with a semi-rural feel (similar to Geelong).



I'm not denying WA has a market, but what does it add? Freo just had 20k free seats against the Roos. Just upgrade Optus Stadium to 70k and make two truly big clubs. Not a big club, a medium club, and a straggler striving to get out of their shadows.

A Canberra team will add more fans and more players to the talent pool, a WA team just shifts the same number around.

It’s adds a lot. Rivalry which is why the big games are the big games? WA3 wouldn’t be the money sucker that GWS and GC would be. Huge sponsor and over in the mining land of WA and Eagles always making record profits. WA is also a big state and no doubt a lot of it doesn’t get covered by WC or Freo and developed as well as it could.

40,000 at any game is good. Doesn’t have to be a sell out. A lot of the non used seats will also be members who didn’t turn up.

Canberra may keep their academy players but like the new franchises in the non afl states. They will use later picks on those, it’s the high draft picks from Vic that will always return home and the big Vic teams will always top up.

Like I’ve said GWS should be moved Canberra but that will never happen. The AFL will keep going until they crack that market. Who knows if they ever will but if they do $$.

 

[Bjo187]

It’s adds a lot. Rivalry which is why the big games are the big games? WA3 wouldn’t be the money sucker that GWS and GC would be. Huge sponsor and over in the mining land of WA and Eagles always making record profits. WA is also a big state and no doubt a lot of it doesn’t get covered by WC or Freo and developed as well as it could.

40,000 at any game is good. Doesn’t have to be a sell out. A lot of the non used seats will also be members who didn’t turn up.

Canberra may keep their academy players but like the new franchises in the non afl states. They will use later picks on those, it’s the high draft picks from Vic that will always return home and the big Vic teams will always top up.

Like I’ve said GWS should be moved Canberra but that will never happen. The AFL will keep going until they crack that market. Who knows if they ever will but if they do $$.

One thing I'll disagree with you on is sponsorship dollars. Eagles and dockers get 2 of the 3 lowest sponsorship deals in the competition. They make their big money off stadium attendance and corporate attendance at games.

 

[Canberra Pear]

It’s adds a lot. Rivalry which is why the big games are the big games? WA3 wouldn’t be the money sucker that GWS and GC would be. Huge sponsor and over in the mining land of WA and Eagles always making record profits. WA is also a big state and no doubt a lot of it doesn’t get covered by WC or Freo and developed as well as it could.

40,000 at any game is good. Doesn’t have to be a sell out. A lot of the non used seats will also be members who didn’t turn up.

GWS and Gold Coast have nothing to do with this. Canberra wouldn't be a money-sucker either. The only real money-sucker in the Team 20 debate would be the NT.

WA might have room for expansion, but you're just adding a team for the sake of it. It's purely a business decision. If you want to support an AFL team, West Australians have two options already. Anybody who hasn't chosen one is probably pretty happy supporting their interstate team.

A Canberra team actually gives a team to somewhere without one. Canberra was the first non-Victorian place to bid for a team, we were fully an Aussie Rules town before the AFL neglected us for four decades. Kids have grown up having to watch their teams from afar, or just support the Raiders if they wanted to support a local team. By some metrics, we're still considered an Aussie Rules town, but we need a real team of our own to support.

We have more unrepresented AFL fans than any other city. More than Hobart, more than Launceston, and waaay more than Darwin. If WA got a third team ahead of Canberra getting one, it would be incredibly disheartening.

Canberra may keep their academy players but like the new franchises in the non afl states. They will use later picks on those, it’s the high draft picks from Vic that will always return home and the big Vic teams will always top up.

You think players north of the Murray just make up the numbers? Of that 40, 12 were top-20 draft picks, which is just about average for an AFL team.

Canberra isn't like the other "non afl states". We produce plenty of our own players and we're the major centre for a huge footy region.

A Canberra team wouldn't have to worry about the go-home factor as much, because so many high draft picks would already be home.

 

[Elite Pete]

Haha, GWS has plenty to do with it….. like a lot…..

I just can’t see how Canberra can be added without making GWS a failure. If they take their zone or part of it. They will never successful.

You’re not just adding a team for the sake of it. WA is spread over a lot of space and 3 teams can help develop it to its full potential.

Rivalry is what make great games. See Dolphins vs Broncos. It’s why people turn up to games week after week.

Both areas have great reason to be added but only one will take away from a team that can’t afford to have anything taken away from them.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Haha, GWS has plenty to do with it….. like a lot…..

I just can’t see how Canberra can be added without making GWS a failure. If they take their zone or part of it. They will never successful.

If your main argument for WA being the better is "but GWS needs Canberra", then you've pretty much skipped everything I've said.

The Canberra relationship is one of the main roadblocks to GWS succeeding in Western Sydney. It's the butt of many jokes, creates a smaller presence, and prevents buy-in for a team that looks like it has one foot out the door.

You’re not just adding a team for the sake of it. WA is spread over a lot of space and 3 teams can help develop it to its full potential.

Rivalry is what make great games. See Dolphins vs Broncos. It’s why people turn up to games week after week.

WA is huge. But 80% of it lives in Perth, and that's pretty covered. You're not going to get WA3 playing games in Broome or Geraldton.

Rivalries are great. Especially two-team rivalries. But nobody likes a third wheel.

There aren't too many comparisons of three-team towns in Australia, but they aren't good.

The Western Sydney Wanderers v Sydney FC derby is great. How'd Macarthur add to that? How'd Western United add to the Melbourne rivalry? Does Perth really want a Western United compared to West Coast and Freo?

 

[Bjo187]

Haha, GWS has plenty to do with it….. like a lot…..

I just can’t see how Canberra can be added without making GWS a failure. If they take their zone or part of it. They will never successful.

You’re not just adding a team for the sake of it. WA is spread over a lot of space and 3 teams can help develop it to its full potential.

Rivalry is what make great games. See Dolphins vs Broncos. It’s why people turn up to games week after week.

Both areas have great reason to be added but only one will take away from a team that can’t afford to have anything taken away from them.

Personally I'd take that zone from gws and replace it with the n.t zone. Gold coast won't need it as they have plenty of talent coming through their gc academy in the next few years anyway and gws need to tap into the indigenous community better, as Blacktown has the highest population of indigenous people in Australia.

Overall though if you went wa3, it makes sense to use a wafl club to at least give them some support initially (despite being small). I would go with West Perth, change the red in their jumper to orange, or the blue to green and have them as the club covering North West Perth. Based out of Joondalup which they already are and have ties to the local community. They are the oldest club in the wafl, geographically placed perfectly, just won the flag and have good historical ties to footy in Perth. A brand new fresh start up would struggle for support i think.

 

[The Educator]

If your main argument for WA being the better is "but GWS needs Canberra", then you've pretty much skipped everything I've said.

The Canberra relationship is one of the main roadblocks to GWS succeeding in Western Sydney. It's the butt of many jokes, creates a smaller presence, and prevents buy-in for a team that looks like it has one foot out the door.



WA is huge. But 80% of it lives in Perth, and that's pretty covered. You're not going to get WA3 playing games in Broome or Geraldton.

Rivalries are great. Especially two-team rivalries. But nobody likes a third wheel.

There aren't too many comparisons of three-team towns in Australia, but they aren't good.

The Western Sydney Wanderers v Sydney FC derby is great. How'd Macarthur add to that? How'd Western United add to the Melbourne rivalry? Does Perth really want a Western United compared to West Coast and Freo?

Well said.

The funny thing is, WA already has probably the second best club rivalry in Australia (after Adelaide), and the guy you responded to suggested you "See Dolphins v Broncos". THe reality is that, once the novelty and hot air is gone from that, the Dolphins will struggle as much as any team trying to establish in a "market" that already has a very established team and where there isn't an existing enmity (based on history or geography) to tap.

A third West Aussie team would be a long long slog to get off the ground and it would not expand the game at all. The only reason the AFL might do it is because WA football is willing to absorb all of the risk of it.

 

[Elite Pete]

Ha

If your main argument for WA being the better is "but GWS needs Canberra", then you've pretty much skipped everything I've said.

The Canberra relationship is one of the main roadblocks to GWS succeeding in Western Sydney. It's the butt of many jokes, creates a smaller presence, and prevents buy-in for a team that looks like it has one foot out the door.



WA is huge. But 80% of it lives in Perth, and that's pretty covered. You're not going to get WA3 playing games in Broome or Geraldton.

Rivalries are great. Especially two-team rivalries. But nobody likes a third wheel.

There aren't too many comparisons of three-team towns in Australia, but they aren't good.

The Western Sydney Wanderers v Sydney FC derby is great. How'd Macarthur add to that? How'd Western United add to the Melbourne rivalry? Does Perth really want a Western United compared to West Coast and Freo?

Seems you ain’t listening to anyone but yourself.

Havent ignored just don’t agree with taking the most talented part of GWS Academy away from from them will help.
They will just to over pay their players even more to stay and that will never work.

3 team? Works pretty well in Vic with more clubs. Time helps rivalry grows and events help.

 

[Elite Pete]

No one is switching on to watch Canberra Sunday early game vs who ever either.

I think WA3 will also help create another time slot for games. If that’s Sunday night/late Friday or Saturday I’m not sure but helps with TV $$. Rather than double parking another game on a Saturday or Sunday

 

[kranger]

Team 19 - Tas

Team 20 - Northern Sydney

The population of Tasmania is a little questionable as to whether they could ensure an AFL team is economically viable. Canberra is likewise, but has existing rugby union and league teams to compete with for corporate dollars and government funding.

I know everyone says that north Sydney is Swans base of support, but technically their playing and training facilities are south of the harbour, and being ‘south Sydney’ means they keep more games at the SCG which I will cover later.

Northern Sydney play at the SCG along with the Swan’s, taking advantage of the central well maintained stadium. But have training grounds north of the harbour (perhaps North Sydney Oval).

But Northern Sydney only play 7 games at the SCG. Instead taking 2 games to Central Coast and 2 games to Newcastle. These will be the equivalent of what Canberra is to GWS.

Meanwhile, Sydney Swans take 2 of their 11 home games down to Wollongong, keeping 9 games at the SCG. Again, similar to Canberra and GWS.

And then give Swans members access to the away derbies to GWS and Northern Sydney so they still get access to 11 games in Sydney.

This increases the SCG number of AFL games to 16. Whilst getting AFL games into Canberra, Newcastle, Central Coast and Wollongong.

NSW has over 8m people. A third of Australia’s population. Home to Australia’s largest businesses. It’s not some regional town with 100,000 residents which happens to be the next on the list for biggest town without an AFL team. NSW is where we ‘grow the game’. It’s why GWS was created, and why Sydney 3 will be a thing.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Well said.

The funny thing is, WA already has probably the second best club rivalry in Australia (after Adelaide), and the guy you responded to suggested you "See Dolphins v Broncos". THe reality is that, once the novelty and hot air is gone from that, the Dolphins will struggle as much as any team trying to establish in a "market" that already has a very established team and where there isn't an existing enmity (based on history or geography) to tap.

A third West Aussie team would be a long long slog to get off the ground and it would not expand the game at all. The only reason the AFL might do it is because WA football is willing to absorb all of the risk of it.

Exactly. The South Queensland Crushers had 50k for their first derby.

I'm sure the Dolphins will do better than the Crushers, but people should pump the brakes before holding them up as a shining example of expansion.