Review Round 2, 2023 - Brisbane Lions vs. Melbourne

[Denno]

I had that problem watching Dogs defense last round. Josh Bruce and Liam Jones - 18 and 19. shaved head with beard and moustache. Parked right next to each other. Yikes.

And then I go googling for them and even google decides to mess with me.

View attachment 1641506

Pretty easy to work out - Jones will have the tin foil hat on............

 

[Grasshopper17]

It was a disappointing last 10 minutes. I think the biggest issue is that I reckon the instructions from the coaching group was an opportunity to get match day simulation for finishing off a game. Was disappointing from that POV.

I've heard/read this line of thinking in a few places since Friday night and I'm really struggling to reconcile it with what I saw out on the field.

Towards the end of the warm up before the resumption, Fages pulled the whole group together and was addressing them in quite an animated fashion. It happened right in front of us, top of the goal square at the western (cheer squad) end. My read on it is that he must have observed something in the guys' body language or in the warm up he didn't like, and was trying to hit it on the head before it happened.

 

[Grasshopper17]

We won the game and that is a start. Having Fort back in the team was great. He stays.

Yeah I was really surprised, pleasantly so! Remember how we lost Daniher last year for the Melbourne semi, after losing Oscar early in the Richmond game, and suddenly we looked quick? It was exciting, finally our pressure was somewhere near the level it needed to be.

So much so that even tho I'd been calling for 3 tall forwards and 2 ruckmen as far back as 2021, I'd become convinced I had it all wrong.

Then we get to Friday night, and it's the bloody giraffe enclosure. 3 tall forwards, 2 ruckmen, all played well or were serviceable. Yes I know Gunston's radar was a bit off and Hipwood's game looks quiet on the stat sheet, but what I loved about Eric's game was the way he was consistently able to stop his opponent outmarking him. That killed us in the Prelim last year and early in the Semi it looked like costing us there as well.

And then despite all those big guys, we didn't look slow, our pressure was great (for 3.5 quarters), we covered the ground well I thought, our defence held up etc etc. Even after they lost Gawn, we still looked faster when using our own experience from last year, Melbourne should have looked quicker.

So the key takeaway from me is that while our system and method has clearly improved this year, the effort from the players was the key difference between Rounds 1 and 2. And as someone who builds systems and processes for a living I find this incredibly frustrating It's just so hard to plan for!

 

[Grasshopper17]

First 3 and half Q were great but cant accept that last 12 minutes. Same conditions for both team and only one came back with the right attitude which again adn typically wasnt us. Whose taking the blame this time, coach or players or both?

I loved Harris Andrews' interview after the game on the Lions website. Completely different to his midweek press conference which was full of cliches and prepared powder puff. This was raw and passionate; he was trying to keep it together and "take the positives" but you could tell he was absolutely filthy on that last 10 minutes. Much better signs in my view.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Thats the worst bit of the last section (baring injuries). It was a great chance to practice killing the game and we seemed to have no idea on what to do. We were clearly not coached well on this

Watching Collingwood on Saturday was an absolute masterclass in this. The first half was exhilarating, but then with a 49 point half time lead, the game had already reached the stage where Port couldn't win the game, Collingwood could only lose it.

So Collingwood spent the entire 3rd quarter, and the start of the 4th, playing this bloody boring game of keepings off and kicking for touch. They only managed 2 goals but for all their efforts, Port only managed 3, so the margin was still 42 at 3QT.

Then once the game reached that third stage where Port still couldn't win the game, but Collingwood could no longer lose it either, they released the handbrake and destroyed them in the last quarter.

And there's different ways to skin the same cat. Last year after they'd hit the front against Melbourne (the late in the season game), they bottled the ball up inside their forward 50 for SEVEN MINUTES. Just so smart.

Everyone wants to talk about how exciting they are, which is fair enough, but they have this dark side too which we may get a taste of if we can't start well against them on Easter Thursday.

These are all learnable skills and you would think that after the Richmond loss and the Carlton near miss last year, we'd have done more work on this. And to be honest I thought we had, based on comments from those here who had been to our summer training sessions. It just didn't look that way on Friday night.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Gambling dollars... Got to get that correct margin...

Apparently Gil had Melbourne+39.5.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Ashcroft was a gun with plenty of improvement still to come. Needs to put away the Rischitelli hack kick from a clearance against teams like Melbourne

This is a really interesting point. Leigh Montagna on First Crack brought this up, but actually as positive. It looked like we decided "enough of handballing around in a circle looking for the perfect clearance, let's just get the bloody thing forward where we have some dangerous blokes one on one".

I really like it and happy to persist with it. Eventually it might mean an opposition start their wings (or one at least) on the back edge of the square to try and cut these off, but if you can get your clearance kick over the top of that you've still got 6-6-6.

It's predictable to your team mates, puts pressure on defenders, our forwards have the most space they're gonna have, and then we have our mids pushing down, prolonging that forward momentum and forming a wall behind the ball.

So yes, obviously we'd love Ashcroft to be able to hit a target inside 50 without even looking, but give him another game or two to learn that skill, and in the meantime embrace the hack kicks

 

[rye]

thought joe looked a bit more serious / angry during preseason and saw something interesting on replay

when hipwood marked the ball right on the boundary near the 50 arc late in the third, joe had a mismatch deep forward on a melbourne player. joe called for it multiple times but hipwood either did not notice or ignored it. hipwood missed the kick, but we got a goal shortly after. joe looked to give hipwood a burst for ignoring him being in a better position in the forward celebration / huddle afterwards. had not seen that assertiveness from him before

think we could see a different mentality from daniher this year - looks to have a point to prove

 

[Mr Ripper]

So will the percentage impact us as much as that famous Bulldogs game a few years back that got us into a higher position by the width of a male bees appendage?

It’ll be less than a half of one percent’s worth by season’s end, so… potentially.

 

[Grasshopper17]

thought this was stated to be an intentional plan from melbourne coming into the season, rotating more through their midfield so their core group do not get so tired and banged up towards the back end like they did last year

We will need to do the same thing, otherwise come Round 24 we'll have Neale, Dunkley and certainly Berry in the same position.

We addressed my concerns about our physical body size to a large extent by rolling these 3 through the middle more than in Round 1, but the challenge will be how sustainable is this?

It looked fantastic in there on Friday night, but lots of teams have big midfields and I wonder for how long will we be able to keep going to this well throughout the season?

 

[Gadzorks]

thought joe looked a bit more serious / angry during preseason and saw something interesting on replay

when hipwood marked the ball right on the boundary near the 50 arc late in the third, joe had a mismatch deep forward on a melbourne player. joe called for it multiple times but hipwood either did not notice or ignored it. hipwood missed the kick, but we got a goal shortly after. joe looked to give hipwood a burst for ignoring him being in a better position in the forward celebration / huddle afterwards. had not seen that assertiveness from him before

think we could see a different mentality from daniher this year - looks to have a point to prove

I remember that play.

Joe was calling for the ball because he was in the front position against a shorter player against who he probably felt confident he could outmark.

Entirely possible Eric didn't realise/see the miss match cause joe was in front.

Cause of cranky Joe I also noticed very soon after Joe and Eric were either chatting or back slapping. Specifics elude me, but I noted they were fine.

As you say, good to see intensity, and also that they move on quickly and work well together.

 

[rye]

We will need to do the same thing, otherwise come Round 24 we'll have Neale, Dunkley and certainly Berry in the same position.

We addressed my concerns about our physical body size to a large extent by rolling these 3 through the middle more than in Round 1, but the challenge will be how sustainable is this?

It looked fantastic in there on Friday night, but lots of teams have big midfields and I wonder for how long will we be able to keep going to this well throughout the season?

we have lyons in the reserves to give players a spell if needed - he is a more than serviceable mid if his body is right, would hope we look to get games into him regardless of injury so our guys dont get too beat up and also to make sure the synergy is there if someone in our mid rotations goes down

 

[Grasshopper17]

So will the percentage impact us as much as that famous Bulldogs game a few years back that got us into a higher position by the width of a male bees appendage?

We'll know after Round 24

But without wanting to go over it in chapter and verse, we've had so many games in the last 1-2 years where we've been dominating games and then cost ourselves valuable %.

Not even talking about the Richmond and Carlton games here. Even down in Canberra vs the Giants last year, the Bulldogs game at the Gabba. 50 point leads in both but you let them in late and only win by 5-6 goals. In isolation you cop them as once offs but It's become a pattern, notwithstanding the extraordinary circumstances of Friday night.

% matters... How much? We have no idea at the moment. That's why I'm never a fan of putting the cue completely in the rack.

 

[Grasshopper17]

My final thoughts on the game, just to add a couple of things I didn't see touched on so far. Thought we were bloody sensational for 3.5 quarters: as good if not better than vs Geelong in mid 2021, so right up there as our best win under Fagan in terms of quality of play also accounting for quality of opponent.

At the time I was pretty dark on our performance after the resumption, and some of my thoughts at the time would have made some of Nathan Barley's comments seem complimentary I've gradually made peace with our final 10 mins tho and probly glad I've been too busy to post until now.



There were some odd stats to come out of the game tho. Everyone's touched on the clearance domination, which was mind boggling. But on the other side is the intercept differential, which was Melbourne's way 78-65.

Comparing that with our clearance win of 60-32, this means either team had 92 opportunities to score from stoppages, but 143 opportunities from turnover. It's still a turnover game, and we probably still need to be better on that front.

Problem is it's harder to coach. Stoppage coaching is relatively straightforward because players can set up in certain locations and do specific things, but defending turnover almost requires coaching a way of thinking, because of their more chaotic nature.

So this is still a watch for me. Yes, if we dominate clearance like that every week we should win more than we lose, but it's a higher risk strategy and a good opposition coach will work us out (again) in due course.



On the plus side tho, only 46% efficiency inside 50. We are normally better than that so there is upside there. Meanwhile 39% only for Melbourne... Big improvement on the 60% last week. That's the new benchmark really. Outstanding defence.



This is another watch for me. Beat them well in contested ball but they still got us on the outside. This is the exact reverse of the Semi Final last year. I'm not quite what this all means but I wonder about our spread and if we are still getting a bit too sucked in to the ball and contest.



Really want to highlight this. The way we stopped Melbourne's talls at both ends of the ground, but particularly in our forward line, was an absolute feature, and chalk and cheese compared to our "efforts" in the two regular season games last year.

It's also why I think Hipwood deserves a bit more credit than he's got here since the game. Possibly a Murray Davis influence?



Last stat from me... If we really want to become this ruthless and relentless juggernaut I think we can be, our aim should be for our biggest lead of the game to also be the margin at the end of the game.



Final comment... Coming to the game on Friday night I was concerned we were about to see the second coming of our 1998 season, when a talented group blew completely off the rails. Leaving the Gabba tho I liken our current group to our 2000 season. Capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, usually with little warning of which is coming next before it happens.

I'd like to say this is potentially a good sign, but our current group has reminded me of our 2000 season for a couple of years now... Just wondering if there's any chance we can tick into 2001 soon?

 

[Viceregal]

Not a bad night for the lad

Will Ashcroft Breaks Club Record

Will Ashcroft has become the youngest player in Brisbane Lions history to record a 30-possession game.

www.lions.com.au

 

[Thomasno]

Interesting that there was a media lovefest about Oliver's game but the coaches only gave him 1 vote which I agree with even though he got big stats he was largely ineffectual until the after lights time on period.

He was completely shut out of the game until the 5th Quarter, when he was suddenly the only player on the ground that seemed to give a damn about the result

 

[Sanchez365]

My final thoughts on the game, just to add a couple of things I didn't see touched on so far. Thought we were bloody sensational for 3.5 quarters: as good if not better than vs Geelong in mid 2021, so right up there as our best win under Fagan in terms of quality of play also accounting for quality of opponent.

At the time I was pretty dark on our performance after the resumption, and some of my thoughts at the time would have made some of Nathan Barley's comments seem complimentary I've gradually made peace with our final 10 mins tho and probly glad I've been too busy to post until now.



There were some odd stats to come out of the game tho. Everyone's touched on the clearance domination, which was mind boggling. But on the other side is the intercept differential, which was Melbourne's way 78-65.

Comparing that with our clearance win of 60-32, this means either team had 92 opportunities to score from stoppages, but 143 opportunities from turnover. It's still a turnover game, and we probably still need to be better on that front.

Problem is it's harder to coach. Stoppage coaching is relatively straightforward because players can set up in certain locations and do specific things, but defending turnover almost requires coaching a way of thinking, because of their more chaotic nature.

So this is still a watch for me. Yes, if we dominate clearance like that every week we should win more than we lose, but it's a higher risk strategy and a good opposition coach will work us out (again) in due course.

View attachment 1642146

On the plus side tho, only 46% efficiency inside 50. We are normally better than that so there is upside there. Meanwhile 39% only for Melbourne... Big improvement on the 60% last week. That's the new benchmark really. Outstanding defence.

View attachment 1642147

This is another watch for me. Beat them well in contested ball but they still got us on the outside. This is the exact reverse of the Semi Final last year. I'm not quite what this all means but I wonder about our spread and if we are still getting a bit too sucked in to the ball and contest.

View attachment 1642150

Really want to highlight this. The way we stopped Melbourne's talls at both ends of the ground, but particularly in our forward line, was an absolute feature, and chalk and cheese compared to our "efforts" in the two regular season games last year.

It's also why I think Hipwood deserves a bit more credit than he's got here since the game. Possibly a Murray Davis influence?

View attachment 1642151

Last stat from me... If we really want to become this ruthless and relentless juggernaut I think we can be, our aim should be for our biggest lead of the game to also be the margin at the end of the game.



Final comment... Coming to the game on Friday night I was concerned we were about to see the second coming of our 1998 season, when a talented group blew completely off the rails. Leaving the Gabba tho I liken our current group to our 2000 season. Capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, usually with little warning of which is coming next before it happens.

I'd like to say this is potentially a good sign, but our current group has reminded me of our 2000 season for a couple of years now... Just wondering if there's any chance we can tick into 2001 soon?

Great analysis. Looked back at last year's season we only had one game that came close to the midfield domination we just showed and that was against GWS with a +25 clearance differential.

I do wonder if our absolute smashing of Melbourne in the midfield covered up some of our defensive running patterns. If you look at our running for the game we matched Melbourne well until the 4th when we clearly just stopped after that break.

 

[On the quiet]

I loved Harris Andrews' interview after the game on the Lions website. Completely different to his midweek press conference which was full of cliches and prepared powder puff. This was raw and passionate; he was trying to keep it together and "take the positives" but you could tell he was absolutely filthy on that last 10 minutes. Much better signs in my view.

They will need to back it up this week because there is no doubt within the Dogs camp they are probably going through worse than what Lions team went through after the Port lose. They will throw everything at us in that first Q. so the team really needs to be switched on. Naughton (who I rate highly) will jump for everything so whoever has the matchup needs to body him, and hopefully Andrews coming across to intercept.

On Dogs board some thought JUH might not play and possibly Bruce forward as Gardner is available.

 

[p4p1]

What did everyone think of Joyce? Is he in the team ahead of Gardiner at the moment? He did some good things but more importantly he didn't give away any stupid frees. Gardiner can kills us when he does that.

 

[knaf]

What did everyone think of Joyce? Is he in the team ahead of Gardiner at the moment? He did some good things but more importantly he didn't give away any stupid frees. Gardiner can kills us when he does that.

Haven’t watch the replay but I was pleasantly surprised by Joyce’s game. it was the first time I had watched him play ( and only on TV).

His skill level, game understand and particularly speed and agility were better than I expected. Disposal was good.

my take is he primarily played on Brown. one of Brown’s goals he lost him completely but I am pretty sure he took the decision to run forward to cover a player with the ball, who was running free into the 50. Always a difficult decision to get right. Brown got another from a beautiful pass that no defender could have stopped. Joyce was only half a step behind. I think Brown got another when Strace matched on him. Not sure how the mismatch happened? Cant remember Brown’s forth. Overall not bad.

And he allowed Andrews to play the intercept role which always makes our defence more cohesive.

On the strength of this game I think he gets another 2 or 3 games at least to cement his spot and to give the coaches a chance to access his attributes against a fully fit Gardiner.

 

[Thomasno]

What did everyone think of Joyce? Is he in the team ahead of Gardiner at the moment? He did some good things but more importantly he didn't give away any stupid frees. Gardiner can kills us when he does that.

I think you’re right in that the most important takeaway from Joyce’s game is that he didn’t make any mistakes - which is arguably more important than trying to be too clever and giving away stupid frees or losing your man.

Definitely has earned a spot in the team I’d say. I would still put Gardiner above him (I really rate dizzy when he’s actually on, watch the Geelong PF for example where he shut Cameron out of the game) - but Joyce being better than we all thought means that we can afford to take our time with Gardiner and actually get him fit, bring him back through the 2s etc.

 

[buttermuffs]

My final thoughts on the game, just to add a couple of things I didn't see touched on so far. Thought we were bloody sensational for 3.5 quarters: as good if not better than vs Geelong in mid 2021, so right up there as our best win under Fagan in terms of quality of play also accounting for quality of opponent.

At the time I was pretty dark on our performance after the resumption, and some of my thoughts at the time would have made some of Nathan Barley's comments seem complimentary [emoji23] I've gradually made peace with our final 10 mins tho and probly glad I've been too busy to post until now.



There were some odd stats to come out of the game tho. Everyone's touched on the clearance domination, which was mind boggling. But on the other side is the intercept differential, which was Melbourne's way 78-65.

Comparing that with our clearance win of 60-32, this means either team had 92 opportunities to score from stoppages, but 143 opportunities from turnover. It's still a turnover game, and we probably still need to be better on that front.

Problem is it's harder to coach. Stoppage coaching is relatively straightforward because players can set up in certain locations and do specific things, but defending turnover almost requires coaching a way of thinking, because of their more chaotic nature.

So this is still a watch for me. Yes, if we dominate clearance like that every week we should win more than we lose, but it's a higher risk strategy and a good opposition coach will work us out (again) in due course.

View attachment 1642146

On the plus side tho, only 46% efficiency inside 50. We are normally better than that so there is upside there. Meanwhile 39% only for Melbourne... Big improvement on the 60% last week. That's the new benchmark really. Outstanding defence.

View attachment 1642147

This is another watch for me. Beat them well in contested ball but they still got us on the outside. This is the exact reverse of the Semi Final last year. I'm not quite what this all means but I wonder about our spread and if we are still getting a bit too sucked in to the ball and contest.

View attachment 1642150

Really want to highlight this. The way we stopped Melbourne's talls at both ends of the ground, but particularly in our forward line, was an absolute feature, and chalk and cheese compared to our "efforts" in the two regular season games last year.

It's also why I think Hipwood deserves a bit more credit than he's got here since the game. Possibly a Murray Davis influence?

View attachment 1642151

Last stat from me... If we really want to become this ruthless and relentless juggernaut I think we can be, our aim should be for our biggest lead of the game to also be the margin at the end of the game.



Final comment... Coming to the game on Friday night I was concerned we were about to see the second coming of our 1998 season, when a talented group blew completely off the rails. Leaving the Gabba tho I liken our current group to our 2000 season. Capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, usually with little warning of which is coming next before it happens.

I'd like to say this is potentially a good sign, but our current group has reminded me of our 2000 season for a couple of years now... Just wondering if there's any chance we can tick into 2001 soon? [emoji854]

You’re 100% right about the turnovers. You win games most of the time off of scoring off turnovers. It’s the way we played in preseason and that’s definitely why I was excited. In the Dees game we still did really well to set up and prepare to defend when we had the ball to try and prevent Melbourne scoring off turnovers and it worked well. Dare I say it probably caused some more turnovers in the end since we were at times outnumbered in our forward half when we booted it forward. It still led to Melbourne turning it over when they kicked it straight back our way.

I think we can 100% find the balance between creating opportunities off turnovers and preventing opposition opportunities from them.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[buttermuffs]

Great analysis. Looked back at last year's season we only had one game that came close to the midfield domination we just showed and that was against GWS with a +25 clearance differential.

I do wonder if our absolute smashing of Melbourne in the midfield covered up some of our defensive running patterns. If you look at our running for the game we matched Melbourne well until the 4th when we clearly just stopped after that break.

I think the most interesting running stat was the average speed both teams had in both attack and defence. At halftime, the tracker had both teams relatively even at around 7.5km/h for both teams but come games end Melbourne was clocking below 7km/h for both. Feel like it was a clear indicator that the heat definitely had an effect on them in the second half.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

What did everyone think of Joyce? Is he in the team ahead of Gardiner at the moment? He did some good things but more importantly he didn't give away any stupid frees. Gardiner can kills us when he does that.

Put it this way.
Was at the game live and when I saw him come out of defense with a run , I imediately thought he was Mckenna, he moves well and his disposal was pretty good from memory.
At this stage I would say he excelled my expectations .
Al;ways thought Dizzy is good at his best, great defender when he's on, but with Andrews back with him we look really slow in reaction time .
Hopefully Joyce can get a run of games and we see how he goes.

 

[Brett C]

We'll know after Round 24

But without wanting to go over it in chapter and verse, we've had so many games in the last 1-2 years where we've been dominating games and then cost ourselves valuable %.

Not even talking about the Richmond and Carlton games here. Even down in Canberra vs the Giants last year, the Bulldogs game at the Gabba. 50 point leads in both but you let them in late and only win by 5-6 goals. In isolation you cop them as once offs but It's become a pattern, notwithstanding the extraordinary circumstances of Friday night.

% matters... How much? We have no idea at the moment. That's why I'm never a fan of putting the cue completely in the rack.

Did you look at last years ladder?

Our % could have been 200% yet it would have made no difference to our position on the ladder.

In 2021 our % helped us finish 4th rather than 5th.