Stats questions

[RedmanWasHere]

I love Scotty Lycett but I'm secretly happy he never amounted to anything at Port.

Would've loved him back at WCE for a year of bash n crash

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

UP THE BLOODY COASTERS is all I think about seeing his name.

 

[Cuzz09]

UP THE BLOODY COASTERS is all I think about seeing his name.

Yes!

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[the croucher]

Would someone be able to tell me what is the most games in a completed VFL/AFL career by a player who played every game against the same opponent?

Graham, you've asked many an interesting question since joining the forum, but this one is right up there !

Will take a long time to get a definitive answer I suspect.

So far, I have found the following -
Alf Clauscen (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Collingwood in 1898
Gus Hefter (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Essendon in 1899
Bert Robertson (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Collingwood in 1901
Bert Field (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Carlton in 1906

..and one who came close to meeting requirements...
Jim Neylan (Fitzroy/Carlton) 4 career games - first 3 vs St Kilda in 1906, 1909, 1 vs Geelong in 1910

 

[North park]

Graham, you've asked many an interesting question since joining the forum, but this one is right up there !

Will take a long time to get a definitive answer I suspect.

So far, I have found the following -
Alf Clauscen (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Collingwood in 1898
Gus Hefter (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Essendon in 1899
Bert Robertson (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Collingwood in 1901
Bert Field (St Kilda) 2 career games - both vs Carlton in 1906

..and one who came close to meeting requirements...
Jim Neylan (Fitzroy/Carlton) 4 career games - first 3 vs St Kilda in 1906, 1909, 1 vs Geelong in 1910

If 2 career games is the record, we can add Michael Cooke (Hawthorn) - both vs North Melbourne in 1975 (and both Finals matches too).

 

[GrahamClayton]

"Graham, you've asked many an interesting question since joining the forum, but this one is right up there !"

Thank you!

Here is another - what is the longest sequential run of points in a home-and-away season in a league? eg teams finished with 4,8,12,16,20,24 points and so on

Here is a non-football example - at the end of the 1951-52 English First Division, there was a sequential run of points between 9th place Blackpool (45 points) and 18th placed Middlesbrough (36 points) as follows:

9 Blackpool

42​

12​

5​

4​

40​

27​

6​

4​

11​

24​

37​

45​

10 Charlton Athletic

42​

12​

5​

4​

41​

24​

5​

5​

11​

27​

39​

44​

11 Liverpool FC

42​

6​

11​

4​

31​

25​

6​

8​

7​

26​

36​

43​

12 Sunderland

42​

8​

6​

7​

41​

28​

7​

6​

8​

29​

33​

42​

13 W.B.A

42​

8​

9​

4​

38​

29​

6​

4​

11​

36​

48​

41​

14 Burnley

42​

9​

6​

6​

32​

19​

6​

4​

11​

24​

44​

40​

15 Manchester C

42​

7​

5​

9​

29​

28​

6​

8​

7​

29​

33​

39​

16 Wolverhampton W

42​

8​

6​

7​

40​

3​

4​

8​

9​

33​

40​

38​

17 Derby Co

42​

10​

4​

7​

43​

37​

5​

3​

13​

20​

43​

37​

18 Middlesbrough

42​

12​

4​

5​

37​

25​

3​

2​

16​

27​

63​

36​

 

[worbod]

"Graham, you've asked many an interesting question since joining the forum, but this one is right up there !"

Thank you!

Here is another - what is the longest sequential run of points in a home-and-away season in a league? eg teams finished with 4,8,12,16,20,24 points and so on

Here is a non-football example - at the end of the 1951-52 English First Division, there was a sequential run of points between 9th place Blackpool (45 points) and 18th placed Middlesbrough (36 points) as follows:

​

9 Blackpool

42​

12​

5​

4​

40​

27​

6​

4​

11​

24​

37​

45​

10 Charlton Athletic

42​

12​

5​

4​

41​

24​

5​

5​

11​

27​

39​

44​

11 Liverpool FC

42​

6​

11​

4​

31​

25​

6​

8​

7​

26​

36​

43​

12 Sunderland

42​

8​

6​

7​

41​

28​

7​

6​

8​

29​

33​

42​

13 W.B.A

42​

8​

9​

4​

38​

29​

6​

4​

11​

36​

48​

41​

14 Burnley

42​

9​

6​

6​

32​

19​

6​

4​

11​

24​

44​

40​

15 Manchester C

42​

7​

5​

9​

29​

28​

6​

8​

7​

29​

33​

39​

16 Wolverhampton W

42​

8​

6​

7​

40​

3​

4​

8​

9​

33​

40​

38​

17 Derby Co

42​

10​

4​

7​

43​

37​

5​

3​

13​

20​

43​

37​

18 Middlesbrough

42​

12​

4​

5​

37​

25​

3​

2​

16​

27​

63​

36​

The longest sequence I can find involving a four-point pattern is six teams, during three seasons.

1930




1958



2001

 

[worbod]

There are also six instances of a two-point pattern (because of drawn games) involving a sequence of four teams.

1944



1952



1956



1974



1996



2007

 

[WheeloRatings]

Would someone be able to tell me what is the most games in a completed VFL/AFL career by a player who played every game against the same opponent?

By my records, two is the most and the following 20 players all did it.



The most matches played against a single opponent at least half of their career matches was against that team is six (out of 12 career matches). Here are all players with 3+:

 

[North park]

The 2023 season began with some unusual statistical events. I am wondering how frequent or how rare these events are in the history of AFL.

Collingwood started the 2023 season with a win in Round 1 against the reigning premiers Geelong, before going on to win the premiership themselves.

Are there other instances of a premiership team beating the reigning premiers to start the season?

Geelong won the 2022 premiership after finishing on top of the ladder. Collingwood repeated this feat in 2023.

Are there other instances of a team beating the reigning minor premier & premier in Round 1 and then going on to achieve this double themselves?

On the reverse side, West Coast started the 2023 season by losing to the 2022 wooden spooner North Melbourne, before going on the claim the 2023 wooden spoon.

Are there other instances of a wooden spoon team losing to the "reigning" wooden spoon team to start the season?

And Port Adelaide began the season by playing the two teams that would go on to contest the 2023 Grand Final - Brisbane at home in Round 1 and Collingwood away in Round 2.

Are there other instances of a team playing the eventual Grand Finalists in the first two rounds of the season?

 

[the croucher]

The 2023 season began with some unusual statistical events. I am wondering how frequent or how rare these events are in the history of AFL.
<snip>

And Port Adelaide began the season by playing the two teams that would go on to contest the 2023 Grand Final - Brisbane at home in Round 1 and Collingwood away in Round 2.

Are there other instances of a team playing the eventual Grand Finalists in the first two rounds of the season?

I suspect this happens a little more often than we may initially think, random examples being
in 1964 Geelong played Melbourne in Rnd 1 and Collingwood in Rnd 2;
in 2000 Richmond played Melbourne in Rnd 1 and Essendon in Rnd 2
in 2001 Kangaroos played Essendon in Rnd 1 and Brisbane in Rnd 2

 

[worbod]

And Port Adelaide began the season by playing the two teams that would go on to contest the 2023 Grand Final - Brisbane at home in Round 1 and Collingwood away in Round 2.

Are there other instances of a team playing the eventual Grand Finalists in the first two rounds of the season?

1906: St. Kilda played Fitzroy in round 1 and Carlton in round 2
1908: St. Kilda played Carlton in round 1 and Essendon in round 2
1911: Richmond played Collingwood in round 1 and Essendon in round 2
1917: Carlton played Fitzroy in round 1 and Collingwood in round 2
1918: Geelong played South Melbourne in round 1 and Collingwood in round 2
1919: Geelong played Richmond in round 2 and Collingwood in round 3 after having had a bye in round 1
1942: Melbourne played Essendon in round 1 and Richmond in round 2
1947: South Melbourne played Essendon in round 1 and Carlton in round 2
1957: Fitzroy played Melbourne in round 1 and Essendon in round 2
1963: Essendon played Hawthorn in round 1 and Geelong in round 2
1964: Geelong played Melbourne in round 1 and Collingwood in round 2
1972: Collingwood played Richmond in round 1 and Carlton in round 2
1973: Geelong played Carlton in round 1 and Richmond in round 2
1982: Fitzroy played Carlton in round 1 and Richmond in round 2
1983: Sydney played Essendon in round 1 and Hawthorn in round 2
1988: Richmond played in Melbourne round 1 and Hawthorn in round 2
1989: North Melbourne played Geelong in round 1 and Hawthorn in round 2
1997: Brisbane Lions played Adelaide in round 1 and St. Kilda in round 2
1999: Essendon played Carlton in round 1 and North Melbourne in round 2
2000: Richmond played Melbourne in round 1 and Essendon in round 2
2001: North Melbourne played Essendon in round 1 and Brisbane Lions in round 2
2013: West Coast played Fremantle in round 1 and Hawthorn in round 2
2023: Port Adelaide played Brisbane Lions in round 1 and Collingwood in round 2



I also discovered 14 instances where the two eventual grand finalists played each other in round 1 of that season.

1898: Fitzroy and Essendon
1901: Essendon and Collingwood
1904: Fitzroy and Carlton
1905: Fitzroy and Collingwood
1910: Collingwood and Carlton
1916: Fitzroy and Carlton
1921: Richmond and Carlton
1929: Collingwood and Richmond
1935: Collingwood and South Melbourne
1937: Geelong and Collingwood
1948: Melbourne and Essendon
1975: North Melbourne and Hawthorn
1986: Hawthorn and Carlton
1987: Carlton and Hawthorn

 

[worbod]

The 2023 season began with some unusual statistical events. I am wondering how frequent or how rare these events are in the history of AFL.

Collingwood started the 2023 season with a win in Round 1 against the reigning premiers Geelong, before going on to win the premiership themselves.

Are there other instances of a premiership team beating the reigning premiers to start the season?

1916: Fitzroy defeated Carlton
1919: Collingwood defeated South Melbourne
1942: Essendon defeated Melbourne
1977: North Melbourne defeated Hawthorn
1981: Carlton defeated Richmond
2009: Geelong defeated Hawthorn
2023: Collingwood defeated Geelong

 

[worbod]

On the reverse side, West Coast started the 2023 season by losing to the 2022 wooden spooner North Melbourne, before going on the claim the 2023 wooden spoon.

Are there other instances of a wooden spoon team losing to the "reigning" wooden spoon team to start the season?

1918: Essendon lost to Richmond
1943: St. Kilda lost to Hawthorn
2007: Richmond lost to Carlton
2023: West Coast lost to North Melbourne

 

[RedmanWasHere]

What's the win-loss record of "GF rematches?"

 

[worbod]

What's the win-loss record of "GF rematches?"

Do you mean for the very next time the two grand finalists played each other in the following season? In other words, in 2023 Geelong and Sydney played each other in rounds 6 and 16. If somebody were to compile the "GF rematch" stats would you be hoping both rounds 6 and 16 were included or only round 6?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Do you mean for the very next time the two grand finalists played each other in the following season? In other words, in 2023 Geelong and Sydney played each other in rounds 6 and 16. If somebody were to compile the "GF rematch" stats would you be hoping both rounds 6 and 16 were included or only round 6?

I do indeed.

 

[worbod]

What's the win-loss record of "GF rematches?"

I have ignored 1898 and 1925 as there was no grand final the year before

1899 Fitzroy d Essendon (1-0 in favour of reigning premiers)
1900 Fitzroy d South Melbourne (2-0 in favour of reigning premiers)
1901 Fitzroy and Melbourne draw (2-0 in favour of reigning premiers with 1 draw)
1902 Essendon d Collingwood (3-0-1)
1903 Collingwood d Essendon (4-0-1)
1904 Collingwood d Fitzroy (5-0-1)
1905 Fitzroy d Carlton (6-0-1)
1906 Collingwood d Fitzroy (6-1-1)
1907 Carlton d Fitzroy (7-1-1)
1908 Carlton d South Melbourne (8-1-1)
1909 Carlton d Essendon (9-1-1)
1910 Carlton d South Melbourne (9-2-1)
1911 Carlton d Collingwood (9-3-1)
1912 Essendon d Collingwood (10-3-1)
1913 South Melbourne d Essendon (10-4-1)
1914 Fitzroy d St. Kilda (11-4-1)
1915 Carlton d South Melbourne (12-4-1)
1916 Carlton d Collingwood (13-4-1)
1917 Fitzroy and Carlton draw (13-4-2)
1918 Collingwood d Fitzroy (14-4-2)
1919 Collingwood d South Melbourne (14-5-2)
1920 Richmond d Collingwood (14-6-2)
1921 Richmond d Collingwood (15-6-2)
1922 Carlton d Richmond (15-7-2)
1923 Fitzroy d Collingwood (16-7-2)
1924 Fitzroy d Essendon (16-8-2)
1926 Collingwood d Geelong (16-9-2)
1927 Collingwood d Melbourne (16-10-2)
1928 Richmond d Collingwood (16-11-2)
1929 Collingwood d Richmond (17-11-2)
1930 Collingwood d Richmond (18-11-2)
1931 Collingwood d Geelong (19-11-2)
1932 Geelong and Richmond draw (19-11-3)
1933 Carlton d Richmond (19-12-3)
1934 Richmond d South Melbourne (19-13-3)
1935 South Melbourne d Richmond (19-14-3)
1936 South Melbourne d Collingwood (19-15-3)
1937 Collingwood d South Melbourne (20-15-3)
1938 Collingwood d Geelong (20-16-3)
1939 Collingwood d Carlton (20-17-3)
1940 Melbourne d Collingwood (21-17-3)
1941 Melbourne d Richmond (22-17-3)
1942 Essendon d Melbourne (22-18-3)
1943 Essendon d Richmond (23-18-3)
1944 Richmond d Essendon (24-18-3)
1945 Richmond d Fitzroy (24-19-3)
1946 Carlton d South Melbourne (25-19-3)
1947 Essendon d Melbourne (26-19-3)
1948 Essendon d Carlton (26-20-3)
1949 Melbourne d Essendon (27-20-3)
1950 Essendon d Carlton (28-20-3)
1951 Essendon d North Melbourne (29-20-3)
1952 Essendon d Geelong (29-21-3)
1953 Geelong d Collingwood (30-21-3)
1954 Geelong d Collingwood (30-22-3)
1955 Melbourne d Footscray (30-23-3)
1956 Melbourne d Collingwood (31-23-3)
1957 Melbourne d Collingwood (32-23-3)
1958 Melbourne d Essendon (33-23-3)
1959 Melbourne d Collingwood (33-24-3)
1960 Melbourne d Essendon (34-24-3)
1961 Melbourne d Collingwood (35-24-3)
1962 Footscray d Hawthorn (35-25-3)
1963 Carlton d Essendon (35-26-3)
1964 Geelong d Hawthorn (36-26-3)
1965 Melbourne d Collingwood (37-26-3)
1966 St. Kilda d Essendon (37-27-3)
1967 Collingwood d St. Kilda (37-28-3)
1968 Geelong d Richmond (37-29-3)
1969 Carlton d Essendon (38-29-3)
1970 Richmond d Carlton (39-29-3)
1971 Collingwood d Carlton (39-30-3)
1972 St. Kilda d Hawthorn (39-31-3)
1973 Richmond d Carlton (39-32-3)
1974 Richmond d Carlton (40-32-3)
1975 North Melbourne d Richmond (40-33-3)
1976 Hawthorn d North Melbourne (40-34-3)
1977 North Melbourne d Hawthorn (40-35-3)
1978 North Melbourne d Collingwood (41-35-3)
1979 Hawthorn d North Melbourne (42-35-3)
1980 Carlton d Collingwood (43-35-3)
1981 Collingwood d Richmond (43-36-3)
1982 Carlton d Collingwood (44-36-3)
1983 Carlton d Richmond (45-36-3)
1984 Hawthorn d Essendon (46-36-3)
1985 Essendon d Hawthorn (47-36-3)
1986 Hawthorn d Essendon (47-37-3)
1987 Hawthorn d Carlton (48-37-3)
1988 Carlton d Hawthorn (49-37-3)
1989 Melbourne d Hawthorn (49-38-3)
1990 Hawthorn d Geelong (50-38-3)
1991 Collingwood d Essendon (51-38-3)
1992 West Coast d Hawthorn (51-39-3)
1993 West Coast d Geelong (52-39-3)
1994 Essendon d Carlton (53-39-3)
1995 Geelong d West Coast (53-40-3)
1996 Geelong d Carlton (53-41-3)
1997 Sydney d North Melbourne (53-42-3)
1998 St. Kilda d Adelaide (53-43-3)
1999 North Melbourne d Adelaide (53-44-3)
2000 Carlton d North Melbourne (53-45-3)
2001 Essendon d Melbourne (54-45-3)
2002 Brisbane Lions d Essendon (55-45-3)
2003 Brisbane Lions d Collingwood (56-45-3)
2004 Brisbane Lions d Collingwood (57-45-3)
2005 Port Adelaide d Brisbane Lions (58-45-3)
2006 West Coast d Sydney (58-46-3)
2007 West Coast d Sydney (59-46-3)
2008 Geelong d Port Adelaide (60-46-3)
2009 Geelong d Hawthorn (60-47-3)
2010 St. Kilda d Geelong (60-48-3)
2011 Collingwood d St. Kilda (61-48-3)
2012 Collingwood d Geelong (61-49-3)
2013 Hawthorn d Sydney (61-50-3)
2014 Hawthorn d Fremantle (62-50-3)
2015 Sydney d Hawthorn (62-51-3)
2016 Hawthorn d West Coast (63-51-3)
2017 Western Bulldogs d Sydney (64-51-3)
2018 Adelaide d Richmond (64-52-3)
2019 West Coast d Collingwood (65-52-3)
2020 Greater Western Sydney d Richmond (65-53-3)
2021 Geelong d Richmond (65-54-3)
2022 Melbourne d Western Bulldogs (66-54-3)
2023 Geelong d Sydney (67-54-3)

 

[North park]

1916: Fitzroy defeated Carlton
1919: Collingwood defeated South Melbourne
1942: Essendon defeated Melbourne
1977: North Melbourne defeated Hawthorn
1981: Carlton defeated Richmond
2009: Geelong defeated Hawthorn
2023: Collingwood defeated Geelong

Seven instances over 127 seasons makes this a fairly rare event.

Three observations from this list - two rare and one common.

Geelong were minor premiers and premiers in 2022. Collingwood beat Geelong in Round 1 of 2023 and then went on to achieve this double themselves.

This feat has only been achieved once before - over 100 years previously and also involving Collingwood. In 1918, South Melbourne were minor premiers and premiers. Collingwood beat South Melbourne in Round 1 of 1919 and then went on to achieve this double themselves.

In 1916, Fitzroy beat the reigning premiers Carlton in Round 1 and also beat the Blues in the Grand Final to win that year's premiership. This is the only occasion that has happened.

In the majority of cases (4 out of 7), a team has lost a Grand Final, beaten the premier team in Round 1 of the following season and then gone on to win the premiership themselves. Collingwood in 1918-1919, Essendon in 1941-1942, North Melbourne in 1976-1977 and Geelong in 2008-2009 all achieved this feat.

 

[North park]

2023: Port Adelaide played Brisbane Lions in round 1 and Collingwood in round 2

Round 1 was the only meeting between Port Adelaide and Brisbane before their match up in a Qualifying Final.

Are there other instances of teams only meeting in Round 1 with their next match up being a finals game?

I also discovered 14 instances where the two eventual grand finalists played each other in round 1 of that season.

1898: Fitzroy and Essendon
1901: Essendon and Collingwood
1904: Fitzroy and Carlton
1905: Fitzroy and Collingwood
1910: Collingwood and Carlton
1916: Fitzroy and Carlton
1921: Richmond and Carlton
1929: Collingwood and Richmond
1935: Collingwood and South Melbourne
1937: Geelong and Collingwood
1948: Melbourne and Essendon
1975: North Melbourne and Hawthorn
1986: Hawthorn and Carlton
1987: Carlton and Hawthorn

In these 14 instances, the two teams played each other at least once again during the season before meeting in the Grand Final.

In 2022, Geelong and Sydney met in round 2. Their next meeting was in the Grand Final, and I recall this was reported as the longest gap (in games and days) for two teams meeting in the Grand Final. Is this correct or have other teams only met in round 2 before a Grand Final match up?

 

[emuboy]

Barry Young was one of a number of experienced Richmond players traded away by the second-last placed Tigers at the end of the 1993 season. Young's trade was to Essendon, winners of the 1993 premiership, and he gave Essendon good service in his six seasons at the club from 1994-1999. However, at the end of 1999 salary cap problems at the Bombers saw Young having to move clubs again, and he joined Hawthorn, playing one season at the Hawks in 2000 before retiring at the end of the year, while Essendon would win the 2000 premiership, its first flag since 1993.

There are of course many instances of players narrowly missing premiership opportunities, but Young's situation - joining a club the year after it won a flag and then departing the year before it won its next- seems to be quite unusual. Are there any other players who were in this same situation as Barry Young in their careers?

 

[stemline]

he joined Hawthorn, playing one season at the Hawks in 2000 before retiring at the end of the year

Can't help you with your query sorry - but just had to add that Young was generally loathed by Hawthorn supporters. He put in some distinctly awful performances late in the 2000 season and was actually delisted by Hawthorn after the single season. I remember he went public begging for another opportunity elsewhere, hardly endearing himself to Hawk supporters when he openly stated that his heart hadn't been in it at Hawthorn but he was desperate for another chance.

 

[emuboy]

Byron Pickett

Byron Pickett

Age

48

Ht

179cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.6

3star

K

9.2

4star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

8.6

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

0.6

3star

played for three clubs - North Melbourne, Port Adelaide and Melbourne - in an 11-year career from 1997-2007 and played finals for all of them.

This would be pretty rare, has anyone done the same in 18 years since then or is Byron Pickett

Byron Pickett

Age

48

Ht

179cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.6

3star

K

9.2

4star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

8.6

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

0.6

3star

the last example? There were two players from the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions who played finals in 1996 and 1997 who had finals with a third club previously - Andrew Gowers (Hawthorn), Adrian Fletcher (St Kilda) - while Matthew Clarke and Jason Akermanis had finals games with both the Bears and Lions and would later play finals with a third team in Adelaide and the Bulldogs respectively, but I can't think of many others off-hand.

 

[stemline]

Brent Guerra

Brent Guerra

Age

43

Ht

182cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.9

4star

K

9.9

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.3

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.6

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

1.6

2star

T

0.8

3star

and more recently Tom Mitchell come to mind.

 

[worbod]

Byron Pickett played for three clubs - North Melbourne, Port Adelaide and Melbourne - in an 11-year career from 1997-2007 and played finals for all of them.

This would be pretty rare, has anyone done the same in 18 years since then or is Byron Pickett the last example? There were two players from the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions who played finals in 1996 and 1997 who had finals with a third club previously - Andrew Gowers (Hawthorn), Adrian Fletcher (St Kilda) - while Matthew Clarke and Jason Akermanis had finals games with both the Bears and Lions and would later play finals with a third team in Adelaide and the Bulldogs respectively, but I can't think of many others off-hand.

Could we also include Big Bad Bustling Barry?

 

[Engimal v3]

Anyone know if anyone publishes interchanges? Not just total number, but which players and when? I think the AFL app might have a live record during the game , but nothing historical.