Review Round 11, 2024 - Hawthorn vs. Brisbane Lions

[RU_]

It’s fitting that Gunstons output (25 points) was the difference.

 

[Balony_pony16]

Rayner has a lot of ‘almost’ moments.

The potential is clearly there, but I think he needs to spend a couple of weeks in the VFL. Might do him wonders.

If nothing else, dropping Rayner to ressies would at least raise attention from other clubs. I think his hype is still sorted holding league wide. Would be amazing to trade him out on overs

If “he doesn’t want it” had a last name it would be Rayner

Sad considering he seems a top club bloke

Any new coach would make it a priority to move him on as his form and true potential is way below his market value (which is slipping)

Sometimes you need to know when to fold

 

[Paul Mac]

Any VIC supporters attend the after match? Hazard a guess there’d be plenty of space.

We came straight home, pre game was a message saying no photos and signatures in after match function and we go each time but not today.

 

[Tom14]

If nothing else, dropping Rayner to ressies would at least raise attention from other clubs. I think his hype is still sorted holding league wide. Would be amazing to trade him out on overs

If “he doesn’t want it” had a last name it would be Rayner

Sad considering he seems a top club bloke

Any new coach would make it a priority to move him on as his form and true potential is way below his market value (which is slipping)

Sometimes you need to know when to fold

Why would any club trade 'overs' for a player that has been dropped to the reserves?

 

[SpecialBruce]

A couple of needs for the Lions.
Speed.
A big body mid/forward.
A leader.
I would trade Hugh and Cam for the Bont or similar.
I think we can find speed in the draft or locally.

Would need to trade Berry too. All three are that close. I wouldn't say no.

 

[SpecialBruce]

I actually thought we would be a strong chance if we won today but and I’d also have thought the club would too and the mere fact we offered up the shite we did today truly is startling particularly after all the supposed learnings and other BS spewed by Fagan.

Fagan’s words all off season are still ringing in my ears about how we wouldn’t be a losing GF that failed to back up the next season and win it all the following season. There’s delusion for you with what we’re witnessing this year and I ain’t buying injuries as an excuse because that has nothing to do whatsoever with effort which is non existent in the majority of games this year. Hardly a team that wants it badly enough.

I gave up on finals by round 5. Club was stuck in 2023. We have seen how good the debutants have been. Should have been given a chance earlier and we may have made finals. No chance we make it now. Especially with the same players not performing. Why hasn't Charlie been dropped? Rayner too. And others. Kids have shown more fight. Injection of youth does wonders.

 

[Balony_pony16]

Why would any club trade 'overs' for a player that has been dropped to the reserves?

It’s trade overs for what he is worth. Drop will just plant a seed. He will be back in the side in no time teasing everyone

Value wise, he is worth a 5th rounder. Could easily get a 2nd

 

[Ceebee]

Our forward line is unreliable .
We really miss Linc and his composure and reliability up there .
Charlie has been terrible this year , young Kai tries hard and you can’t question his efforts , but he still has a way to go .
However he has been one of our best players the last few weeks .

Some of our more senior players should take a good hard look at themselves this year .
They look like they find it all too hard .
Our younger players at least look like they care .

 

[dlanod]

I think we will play finals.

I appreciate the optimism but can't help and reflect the irony of someone with your username posting this.

 

[mpal6]

I've had a change of plan after sleeping on this one. I want Fagan to keep going with same set of players till end of season. Don't change a thing. It could help us dip below Hawks and Saints all the way down to pick 4.

 

[martinson]

Not possible to make finals playing as we have for the vast majority of the year and it's hard to see where any necessary turnaround is coming from.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Just finished watching the game. Pathetic performance. Rayner would have been bordering on delisted if he played with any other team. He’s dog .

Neale BOG. Some cameos from others. Worried about Dunkley and clugga. Both out of form or just not playing the right roles they need to.

I think that's harsh on Rayner but it's fair.
When you see this guy slowly jogging behind play and not willing to bust his gut is enough for me.

He's one player , but add Bailey in the mix and then we have two players who rarely do their share of the defensive work.
Another hole for someone else to fill.

Things need to change right now or we could see an exodus of fringe players. Why would you stick around if you were Sharp?
Surely he would get a gig at one of many clubs that utilise these type of players. Richmond maybe?
Hey maybe even Rayner might want a trade , his career has stagnated here.
I know I wasn't alone when I was worried that Fages would drop one of the players who actually gave us that spark back, to make way for Bailey. Wasn't surprising at all, unfortunately.

 

[Sanchez365]

I think that's harsh on Rayner but it's fair.
When you see this guy slowly jogging behind play and not willing to bust his gut is enough for me.

He's one player , but add Bailey in the mix and then we have two players who rarely do their share of the defensive work.
Another hole for someone else to fill.

Things need to change right now or we could see an exodus of fringe players. Why would you stick around if you were Sharp?
Surely he would get a gig at one of many clubs that utilise these type of players. Richmond maybe?
Hey maybe even Rayner might want a trade , his career has stagnated here.
I know I wasn't alone when I was worried that Fages would drop one of the players who actually gave us that spark back, to make way for Bailey. Wasn't surprising at all, unfortunately.

I can see why Fages does it, you only have to watch that goal where Bailey baulks a guy in a phone box, creates his own space and kicks a goal. His ceiling in comparison is miles above someone like Sharp.

But I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen Bailey dig deep to put pressure on a F50 entry like you see Dunkley do multiple times a game.

 

[dlanod]

I've had a change of plan after sleeping on this one. I want Fagan to keep going with same set of players till end of season. Don't change a thing. It could help us dip below Hawks and Saints all the way down to pick 4.

Only if we refuse to replace any players that get injured.

I want a 12 man team out there by week 17.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

I can see why Fages does it, you only have to watch that goal where Bailey baulks a guy in a phone box, creates his own space and kicks a goal. His ceiling in comparison is miles above someone like Sharp.

But I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen Bailey dig deep to put pressure on a F50 entry like you see Dunkley do multiple times a game.

You could argue how many goals a player like Bailey gives up when considering his lack of run in defense.
Sharp covers that wing position well both ways, opens our game up , is ready to cover holes in defense or get to the next contest to put pressure on the ball receiver or carrier.
Better for our game imo.
Can still have both players in your side , just think for structure , ball movement, defensive running Sharp is required.
Someone else could of made way , but for the above reasons , Sharp making way was the wrong one.

 

[western royboy]

Averaged over the season though you’d say that form is an issue but given the inconsistency effort clearly also an issue

One or two players having poor form I would say is normal - yo-yo results and sometimes all within the same game highlights to me that effort and consistency of that effort is the main thing. Players are having a think about it rather than it being automatic. Probably more of a concern is that there appears to be zero pushback on it. That is the hallmark of a fractured group.

 

[Sanchez365]

You could argue how many goals a player like Bailey gives up when considering his lack of run in defense.
Sharp covers that wing position well both ways, opens our game up , is ready to cover holes in defense or get to the next contest to put pressure on the ball receiver or carrier.
Better for our game imo.
Can still have both players in your side , just think for structure , ball movement, defensive running Sharp is required.
Someone else could of made way , but for the above reasons , Sharp making way was the wrong one.

I don't really see the comparison between Sharp v Bailey in this instance considering we are comparing a specialist wing to a HFF/Mid.

I think the combo of Sharp (Wing) / Ah Chee (HFF) is almost always going to be worse then Ah Chee (Wing) / Bailey (HFF).

There's a lot of on paper things with this team that just aren't translating into game day results for what ever reason.

 

[KissKiss]

Worth noting that again Reville played only 65% game time and Bailey only 66%. So way down on a normal mid/forward workload for both players. Add that to Ryan only playing 51% from 3 quarters. That's effectively 3 players not being able to pull a full shift before we consider the poor effort from Rayner

Sharp however managed to play 26% game time from only one quarter which suggests he ran the last quarter without a break.

In another game where we really struggled for run - it just looks badly coached/managed. And its not like this is something new or surprising. We've all been shouting about it for a long time, including pre-game.

 

[haystark]

I've had a change of plan after sleeping on this one. I want Fagan to keep going with same set of players till end of season. Don't change a thing. It could help us dip below Hawks and Saints all the way down to pick 4.

We’ve honestly picked the worst year to be shit. We’re going to get Levi wherever we finish.

 

[mpal6]

We’ve honestly picked the worst year to be shit. We’re going to get Levi wherever we finish.

Draft/trade changes haven't been confirmed by AFL yet. The longer the delay, I hope most likely it'll come in 2025. We could still aim for a double first round return this year if we manage to finish really low and try to move up the draft.

I like our chances to jump if we are holding pick 4. Pick 5 onwards I don't think it'll look attractive for anyone holding 2 or 3 to trade down.

 

[mpal6]

I gave up on finals by round 5. Club was stuck in 2023. We have seen how good the debutants have been. Should have been given a chance earlier and we may have made finals. No chance we make it now. Especially with the same players not performing. Why hasn't Charlie been dropped? Rayner too. And others. Kids have shown more fight. Injection of youth does wonders.

Best time to debut is early in the season where everyone is still trying to find their bearings and young ones are trying to have a go to impress the coaches n peers. Morris was a clear stand out in pre-season who is the only one I'd have picked to debut in the first 2-3 rounds.

 

[Elixuh]

I actually think Charlie is playing well. Just the conversion has been slightly off.

Charlie’s goal kicking issues are mental not physical. He can hit beautiful field kicks when he’s playing on instinct and doesn’t have time to think.

As soon as he marks the ball you can see he tenses up and then his approach to kick the ball is the least confident display I’ve seen from him his entire career. He tries to steer a lot of the shots which is why they come off weak to the right or a dead straight block.

In saying that I thought some of his long kicks at goal yesterday were actually good they just didn’t go through and missed by small margins, which will happen.

 

[M Malice]

Very disappointing end to our Melbourne trip yesterday afternoon, I won't be reading over the game and review threads (also haven't watched a replay) so my views have probably already been covered but a few of my observations from being there live.

1- We were not good re exiting crowded contested/stoppage situations, the Hawks always had a player or 2 spare outside the contest, we had too many sucked into the contest, Hawks play in that area of the game was so clean and quick, made our exiting contests strategy look 2nd rate... sadly it has been a problem for us ever since we became competitive.

2- Unless we have 100% defensive commitment we are found out by teams that play on quick and run past for handball receives... again sadly that has been a long standing weakness of ours.

3- Brandon Ryan is not up to AFL level footy, didn't like the selection and nothing on the day changed my mind, Sharp should have started with Ryan as the sub in case a tall went down.

4- Positives > we have a few good younger players coming through in Wilmot, Lohmann, Morris, L&W Ashcroft, Fletcher, Brain.

5- We saw Zac Bailey

33

Zac Bailey

Age

26

Ht

181cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

6.9

3star

HB

5.9

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.9

3star

D

12.9

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

5.6

3star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.4

3star

CL

0.7

3star

D

13.4

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.8

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.6

3star

and Harris Andrews

31

Harris Andrews

Age

29

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

151.7

2star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

3star

D

9.8

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.8

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

94.0

2star

lining up at a foodery at the airport on the way home, my daughter and granddaughter went up and asked for a photo with them, they were very obliging, polite and happy to have a quick snap taken and a chat, both ladies were very chuffed.

6- Great weekend all things considered, food was exceptional, Wicked the Musical was fantastic, footy was entertaining but sad and the company and banter was elite, loved it.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

I don't really see the comparison between Sharp v Bailey in this instance considering we are comparing a specialist wing to a HFF/Mid.

I think the combo of Sharp (Wing) / Ah Chee (HFF) is almost always going to be worse then Ah Chee (Wing) / Bailey (HFF).

There's a lot of on paper things with this team that just aren't translating into game day results for what ever reason.

You make a point with combos . I think sometimes a player needs to be in regardless of combos due to what he gives to our structure ect., it's that simple.
Back to combos.
tbh I was thinking Bailey for Hippy and keep Ah Chee there as well. We just go small , play Rayner as a med/ tall, it was also mentioned by a few on here.

That was pre game thoughts and I still think well could it of been worse?
Bottom line is Sharp was giving us something the team has been missing and we then decided to pine him for 3 quarters of the game. I don't for one minute give Sharpie all the credit, but he definitely added to that style of play and that only leeds to more players being able to lower their eyes if you have someone leading around the park , creating holes , making efforts to cover in defense.
I could be wrong did Bailey play back as well yesterday , maybe on or around the wing. Players overlap areas, so tbh I'm not sure.
Maybe I'm overrating Sharps career on the last few games we've had, he didn't really get a chance to prove me wrong in this game.

I just get irritated when some players doing swa in the hard stuff, get to play every week and some don't, even though busting their boilers and improving the dynamics of the side and that stinks.

 

[KissKiss]

You make a point with combos . I think sometimes a player needs to be in regardless of combos due to what he gives to our structure ect., it's that simple.
Back to combos.
tbh I was thinking Bailey for Hippy and keep Ah Chee there as well. We just go small , play Rayner as a med/ tall, it was also mentioned by a few on here.

That was pre game thoughts and I still think well could it of been worse?
Bottom line is Sharp was giving us something the team has been missing and we then decided to pine him for 3 quarters of the game. I don't for one minute give Sharpie all the credit, but he definitely added to that style of play and that only leeds to more players being able to lower their eyes if you have someone leading around the park , creating holes , making efforts to cover in defense.
I could be wrong did Bailey play back as well yesterday , maybe on or around the wing. Players overlap areas, so tbh I'm not sure.
Maybe I'm overrating Sharps career on the last few games we've had, he didn't really get a chance to prove me wrong in this game.

I just get irritated when some players doing swa in the hard stuff, get to play every week and some don't, even though busting their boilers and improving the dynamics of the side and that stinks.

Bailey was mostly rotating forward and mid. But being in the mids he was popping up in the back line a bit. I dont think he was actually playing a backline role properly for any serious minutes