Autopsy Some promising signs but Hawks too good

[strauchanie59]

Florent will cop it for that kick and rightfully so, but there were a lot of shit efforts last night, and this was the shittest of them all for me.

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I don't know if Tom Papley thinks this counts as "pressure", or if he just wanted to impress Sicily with his interpretive dance steps. But this was emblematic of the exact kind of half-baked version of "defence" that was on display last night.

Oh I'll just reach for the Hawthorn guy's jumper... ahh damn, too far away, oh well.

Should I lunge to smother the Hawthorn guy's kick? Nah I might just hover around him and hope that spooks him.

For years, he's been a major reason why and how the opposition walk the ball out of our forward line with ease. You would hope, as the smallest player in the forward line, that intense pressure is what you bring to the table. But, he hasn't since probably 2017/18.

I think the majority of our leaders at the club have let this kind of effort become acceptable over the years. It doesn't help when players like Papley ARE the leaders at the club.

Even though we've made two Grand Finals in the last few years, the accountability and standards within the playing group have dropped incredibly.

 

[RUNVS]

For years, he's been a major reason why and how the opposition walk the ball out of our forward line with ease. You would hope, as the smallest player in the forward line, that intense pressure is what you bring to the table. But, he hasn't since probably 2017/18.

I think the majority of our leaders at the club have let this kind of effort become acceptable over the years. It doesn't help when players like Papley ARE the leaders at the club.

Even though we've made two Grand Finals in the last few years, the accountability and standards within the playing group have dropped incredibly.

Yes, we were incapable of keeping the ball in our forward 50 for most of last nights game, whereas Hawthorn was very good at locking us into our defensive 50.

The ball comes out of our forward 50 way way too easily.

 

[Superstar swan]

I reckon he would be a weapon on the wing. Errol on one wing (when he’s back and fit enough) and Lizard on the other

Yea as good as he is down back , I think the further up he ground the harder he is for teams to find matchups.

He’s not the same player he was when he came . I’d love to see him on a wing

 

[Kiama Chris]

Fair enough re: Hayward.

I think Fox on Sicily might have worked, but obviously not available and would have hopefully been put down back from the start or soon after Paton looked unlikely. Paton I thought got better, but might be suited to skinnier types. In any case, he and Wicks are it for small/med defenders until Mills, Cunners and Fox return. Not sure we should debut Leidler yet.

Agree though I suspect even Fox isn't strong enough. Paton is it for now and dropping him after one game would be horrible. Too soon for Leidler.

 

[BLOODS FOOTY]

Yea as good as he is down back , I think the further up he ground the harder he is for teams to find matchups.

He’s not the same player he was when he came . I’d love to see him on a wing

Warner, Heeney, Gulden and Blakey across the centre line. That’s a lot of power and speed to deal with for the opposition.
There is an element of ‘robbing Peter to pay Paul’ to it, but if we shuffle things around, maybe send McCartin back, I firmly believe switching Blakey onto the wing would make us more dangerous.

 

[rustycrate]

Warner, Heeney, Gulden and Blakey across the centre line. That’s a lot of power and speed to deal with for the opposition.
There is an element of ‘robbing Peter to pay Paul’ to it, but if we shuffle things around, maybe send McCartin back, I firmly believe switching Blakey onto the wing would make us more dangerous.

Today I have heard Florent and Blakey onto the wing.
We already have Gulden and McInerney and now Lloyd as Gulden is injured.

You can't put everyone on a wing.

 

[Punts]

I thought jmac stepped up somewhat

Nothing against gulden but does he take some of them marks?

Gulden is a star no shit but if we can’t win without him how is our future

Not to mention his GF performances are absolutely shocking

 

[kickthething]

I have watched last nights game 3 times now, and am prepared to share some observations..

- First outing under a new coach, some good signs, with player moves…hello Wicks, hello Hanily when he arrived on the scene, hello Hayward thru the game
-I am convinced TMac goes back as soon as Logan good to go
-Not a Sheldrick fan, but thought he was benched just when he was starting to impact

• Florent.. stifled us with fumbles and was overall the biggest liability we had on the night….wing or bust right noe
• Wanted leadership from players like Papley and Heeney…both failed
• We need real tough guys, not the embarrassing faux variety presented by McInerney
• Amartey was really good and gave us a presence
• wicks also, needed more like him
• Ground ball and loose ball……desire, competence seemed lacking, hated how soft we seemed
• Rowbottom, imo should be our only captain.

-Chad is elite in patches, we need to throw the kitchen sink at him
- Defensive shit let us down again……..ffs zone defence allows way too much unaccountable football which plays into the lap of too many of our soft players.


So much more' but players I would put a line thru are McInerney and Florent.
..both imo epitomise the soft underbelly we have.

We need to play hungry,hard competitive beasts ahead of silky bs skills. If we continue w/o change we will be 0-3 at the bye.

 

[kickthething]

I thought jmac stepped up somewhat

Nothing against gulden but does he take some of them marks?

Gulden is a star no shit but if we can’t win without him how is our future

Not to mention his GF performances are absolutely shocking

JMac stepped up and then down in pretty quick succession.

 

[ShireSwan]

To me that sort of "pressure" is what's typified sides like Essendon and GWS over the journey, and I do not want us to become one of those sides. Once you get that in your team's DNA it is hard to get it out.

You've got an opponent standing like a deer in headlights. That should be the golden ticket for any footy player. Charge in and take them down, win the ball back for yourself and your team. That that wasn't Papley's mentality in that moment says a lot.

What ends up happening? Sicily ends up dishing it off to a teammate who hits another lace-out and they have a shot on goal.

A shot at goal allowed by one of our players simply choosing not to compete.

I think you're reading a bit much into that, and not giving Sicily or Papley enough credit.

Obviously Papley knows his opponent is good at stepping into and around pressure when it is coming to him at speed, and is trying to coral him to avoid that while cutting off a right foot kick. Papley even points to the player it will likely go to as he cuts out the other option, but Warner, is jogging along at half speed following Papley to the same side, not actually doing anything at all, instead of seeing where the ball will go and covering that next option.

Just an alt take on that snippet fwiw.


That said the club culture on physicality really does need to change. I really feel they are lacking in this aspect, and it comes from the top down.

 

[strauchanie59]

I thought jmac stepped up somewhat

Nothing against gulden but does he take some of them marks?

Gulden is a star no shit but if we can’t win without him how is our future

Not to mention his GF performances are absolutely shocking

Not sure what game you watched, but bar a decent 5-10 minute patch in Q3, he was shocking! What was noticeable about his game was how easily he was shrugged off tackles by Hawks players.

 

[kickthething]

I think you're reading a bit much into that, and not giving Sicily or Papley enough credit.

Obviously Papley knows his opponent is good at stepping into and around pressure when it is coming to him at speed, and is trying to coral him to avoid that while cutting off a right foot kick. Papley even points to the player it will likely go to as he cuts out the other option, but Warner, is jogging along at half speed following Papley to the same side, not actually doing anything at all, instead of seeing where the ball will go and covering that next option.

Just an alt take on that snippet fwiw.

The question w that is ……is this a team directive or player choice. I feel we just need to develop or recruit 8 hard players ahead I’d of skillful players, the amount of examples where we were not in the frame when the ball was in dispute says to me we are yet to learn the lessons of 2025 gf.

 

[BLOODS FOOTY]

Today I have heard Florent and Blakey onto the wing.
We already have Gulden and McInerney and now Lloyd as Gulden is injured.

You can't put everyone on a wing.

Um, you do realise you don’t have to have the same two players playing on the wing for 120 minutes, right?

 

[kickthething]

For years, he's been a major reason why and how the opposition walk the ball out of our forward line with ease. You would hope, as the smallest player in the forward line, that intense pressure is what you bring to the table. But, he hasn't since probably 2017/18.

I think the majority of our leaders at the club have let this kind of effort become acceptable over the years. It doesn't help when players like Papley ARE the leaders at the club.

Even though we've made two Grand Finals in the last few years, the accountability and standards within the playing group have dropped incredibly.

We don’t display the win at all costs hunger we need.Florent last night played his absolute worst game of his career imo. He stifled us more than once and looked a player w way too much self doubt

 

[ShireSwan]

Today I have heard Florent and Blakey onto the wing.
We already have Gulden and McInerney and now Lloyd as Gulden is injured.

You can't put everyone on a wing.

Someone might want to mention that to our recruiters.

 

[kickthething]

Today I have heard Florent and Blakey onto the wing.
We already have Gulden and McInerney and now Lloyd as Gulden is injured.
,!!!!
You can't put everyone on a wing.

Perhaps we have so many wing possibilities is underlying our soft approach to our football….apologies to all those wingers out there

 

[The King!]

Yea as good as he is down back , I think the further up he ground the harder he is for teams to find matchups.

He’s not the same player he was when he came . I’d love to see him on a wing

Blakey isn't that good down back in terms of actually defending , he is fine running off the backline - superstar doing that. But turning him into some 2nd or 3rd accountable tall is great news for the opposition ,
they all want to drag him back.

If we move Mccartin , and Rampe is cooked then we basically now ask Blakey to play as a key defender

 

[rustycrate]

Um, you do realise you don’t have to have the same two players playing on the wing for 120 minutes, right?

mmmmmmm McInerney to replace Florent back.
Blakey onto wing with Lloyd back.
Blakey playing tall with Rampe and Melican but goes onto the wing leaving Lloyd on a tall.

We are already skinny down back with Melican/Rampe-not getting any better/Blakey-not a tall defenders arseh*le being our tall defenders. Now Blakey on a wing replaces Lloyd or McInerney would indeed scare the hell out of opposition forwards.

Lets put everyone on a wing and forget about our lack of tall defenders.

 

[hairy biker]

I have watched last nights game 3 times now, and am prepared to share some observations..

• Wanted leadership from players like Papley and Heeney…both failed

Not sure what you wanted from Heeney, but he led both teams in tackles,clearances and contested possessions.
And of midfielders only Will Day had more possessions.

Sure he didn't hit the scoreboard etc but he played more as a pure midfield (only spending ~20% in the fwd half).

Definitely wasn't his best game, but I certainly wouldn't mark him down on 'leadership'.

 

[Punts]

Not sure what game you watched, but bar a decent 5-10 minute patch in Q3, he was shocking! What was noticeable about his game was how easily he was shrugged off tackles by Hawks players.

That’s fine mate , I did watch the game. We all have different opinions

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

I like strong tacklers. Means I only like a few last night sadly.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I have watched last nights game 3 times now, and am prepared to share some observations..

- First outing under a new coach, some good signs, with player moves…hello Wicks, hello Hanily when he arrived on the scene, hello Hayward thru the game
-I am convinced TMac goes back as soon as Logan good to go
-Not a Sheldrick fan, but thought he was benched just when he was starting to impact

• Florent.. stifled us with fumbles and was overall the biggest liability we had on the night….wing or bust right noe
• Wanted leadership from players like Papley and Heeney…both failed
• We need real tough guys, not the embarrassing faux variety presented by McInerney
• Amartey was really good and gave us a presence
• wicks also, needed more like him
• Ground ball and loose ball……desire, competence seemed lacking, hated how soft we seemed
• Rowbottom, imo should be our only captain.

-Chad is elite in patches, we need to throw the kitchen sink at him
- Defensive shit let us down again……..ffs zone defence allows way too much unaccountable football which plays into the lap of too many of our soft players.


So much more' but players I would put a line thru are McInerney and Florent.
..both imo epitomise the soft underbelly we have.

We need to play hungry,hard competitive beasts ahead of silky bs skills. If we continue w/o change we will be 0-3 at the bye.

Not sure what you wanted from Heeney, but he led both teams in tackles,clearances and contested possessions.
And of midfielders only Will Day had more possessions.

Sure he didn't hit the scoreboard etc but he played more as a pure midfield (only spending ~20% in the fwd half).

Definitely wasn't his best game, but I certainly wouldn't mark him down on 'leadership'.

Call me old fashioned, but for me a captain is someone who leads by playing with courage and commitment, and also has a big voice on field to drive others - AND instils a healthy level of fear in others, like they don’t want to be in his bad books.

Kirk, Hall, McVeigh - they’d let you know if you didn’t do things right. And then the coaching staff would. There would be no where to hide.

I don’t see this with Heeney. He plays well, but it doesn’t come across as leads by example well, and it certainly doesn’t appear like he drives standards.

Mills yaps but you can see his greater desire is to be one of the boys. He has no real presence. When others players speak of him, it doesn’t appear like they have that healthy bit of fear and respect.

It’s a real problem. I also thought it was weird having Mills and some bloke who lost his dad announcing to Heeney that he would be captain. That’s really weird. And then all the boys jumped all over him like he won his first jumper. The feeling should have been congratulatory, but also like “oh right, he is now my boss, better get on his good side”.

I know all the vibe is captains and players being approachable and vulnerable. That’s all great, but if a player is not expecting an almighty whack for a selfish or lazy play, then we have a real issue.

And as Roos would say once he started coaching Melbourne, and I’m paraphrasing but the meaning is the same “I don’t doubt that you are all trying and you all think you are trying your best, but there are different levels of trying, and other teams try harder than you”.

I’m pretty sure Roos would say the exact same thing to the team that played last night.

 

[bloodsbigot]

Also if we played almost anyone else other than Florent we probably win that game. It was the worst game I have ever seen him play.

Florent is mentally weak.

 

[melbournehammer]

I think what I find so frustrating about this board is how inconsistent with criticism it is.

Blakey gets good disposal stats because he takes kick ins, does sone incredible things but otherwise is an absolute liability all night barely anything said.

Rowbottom stinks it up kicking 3 metres in a contest when a handball would do, gets 2 more contested possessions than the subbed Sheldrick and Sheldrick has dozens of posts about him it being up to the level etc and Rowbottom nothing.

Papley yet another game without laying a tackle. Happens in about a quarter of his games. Absent all night, but it's Campbell with 4 tackles who shat the bed because papley kicked a good one.

It's been like this for years but it's so frustrating.

It’s true what you say but there is often great perception from the many.

Stephens was noted early as being simply unable to stick tackles. This could have been forgiven if his kicking was more reliable. But he never showed enough there to justify his limitations. Sheldrick bull in a china shop gets him the ball but gives away frees and often leads to just booted forwards - the same thing that Parker was derided for - and he gives away frees because of his out of control tackling and attack on the ball carrier.

I haven’t seen anything from sheldrick performances to make me think he can change from a panicked player to one with composure in the 2s but he does get it more.

Players are watched pretty closely in fan forums and their stereotypes are often based on things many have seen

When we have a stuff up like Florent did normally players get around them , but on the tv it looked like no one went to him.

Happened right in front of me. Lloyd and rampe I think went to him. No one went to melican either when he refused the chest mark - he headed back the goal square hitting himself and there were two swans there he patted him on the back

 

[melbournehammer]

I didn't mind this performance, but it was somewhat of a watered-down version of the Swans. Nearly everyone was going at about 65-70% compared to what they're capable of. Those that weren't were either diabolically bad (a certain duo drafted in 2016) or unexpectedly great (basically Sam Wicks.)

There were some aspects from previous seasons that unfortunately were still killers for us - getting beaten too easily around the stoppages, an inability to stick tackles, lack of defensive running, and handballing chains coming unstuck by skill errors. But it was one game, so it's too early to say if these were the result of the aforementioned 65-70% factor last night, or if they're prevalent issues we still need to work on.

It may be one of those games that we can't really get a read on until weeks down the track. But my initial impression is that a team who I think will be one of the best teams in the comp this year came to play and looked red hot from the opening bounce, while we still looked rusty and were never quite 'on.' If that is the case, then we might look back on an only 20-point loss in this game as not so bad at all.

I’m absolutely of the view that we have chance this year until we fix a clearances differential of 14 or to put it another way we won 40% of clearances and they 60, and some of theirs were bursts straight out the front and most of ours were scrambled sideways to a winger to hack it forwards.