Autopsy Some promising signs but Hawks too good

[bedford]

What was the momentum? Florent turns it over with, what, 8 or 9 minutes to go? Meaning we'd spent over half the quarter pecking away at their lead for no real reward. No goals kicked in the final term before Florent's clanger. We had several repeat entries that we simply failed to capitalise on. That was our turn. Hawthorn were inevitably going to have their turn and they were better at capitalising on it when they got it.

Florent did not lose us the game IMO, he just put the nail in the coffin of a team that had been slowly dying from about the point the rain came.

But I agree, it was pleasing that we hung in there and at least didn't make it easy for Hawthorn, who I think are the real deal (unfortunately.) Plenty of upside, but wish I could be more confident that we'll see it in the next few weeks.

And mitchell said once the rain came it favored us , bullshit it was the opposite

 

[bedford]

One incident in a match where he was pretty good. Everyone has brain fades. Generally he makes that kick every day of the week in the wet or not. He shanked it

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He was ranked 17th best swan on the night

 

[caesar88]

Agreed, Too much doom and gloom

Even with most of the side playing at 70% we were in a position to win until the Florent blunder and we could barely lay a tackle

Hawks supposedly top 4

If Cox can get the players to go at 85% we will beat almost all the teams

Cox's comment on wanting to play as much of the squad as possible for rotations this year also makes me think he is aware that it is a long season and we want to be peaking at the right time. Not saying he didn't want to win this game or that we didn't prepare fully, but he might be OK with dropping a few games if he has to in order to tinker with the team and try things out and not burn players out.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Absolutely.. Its one game, and the first game of the season which is always rusty.


Its clearly harder in Sydney than Melbourne (Adelaide, Perth). We tried for three years to trade a key defender and ended up with Francis and Hamling as no-one else wanted them. Hawks try last year and get Battle and Barrass - watching that on Fri night gave me the shits more than watching Florent.
Destination club? perennial finalists, state of the art facilities.. so I guess the cost of living, the fact that we're not a big Vic club and the Zero 'come home factor' all play a part.
So we've had to go to the draft.. Edwards, Snell and Riak over the last few years. And drafted mature defenders (as instant depth) in Paton and Bice

If Battle came to us we’d be moaning that St Kilda didn’t want him.

If Barrass came to us we’d be moaning that we’d overpaid for a bloke with chronic back problems.

We were somehow minor premiers last year despite a supposedly awful draft & trading history, not being a destination club etc etc.

We’ve done ok.

Having said that, it does start to look slightly troubling that Grundy and Adams may have been given contract lengths we may come to regret.

But, as you correctly point out, it’s one game. Foolish to draw any conclusions yet.

 

[melbournehammer]

Swans list is the proverbial frog on the frying pan.
Huge problems with recruitment, retention, and poor drafting over the last five years and the chickens will come home to roast.
I'm expecting some horrendous years ahead
Just so many players who are either cooked or not good enough.
No idea how we managed to hide this for so long .

Must say that when I was watching the match I started thinking that libgnire may have timed his leaving well

It’s a bit concerning that our best five or so players on the list include four academy players (mills heeney gulden heeney)

Chad mccartin papley rampe land maybe Grundy are all really important but the rest are basically foot soldiers including Lloyd Hayward and florent who have played a large number of games but are just average league level players and melican amartey wouldn’t be in the top 12 in their position in the league.

I’m fairly pessimistic about the development of the team over the past five years and apart from Roberts who looks ok but no world beater no one really seems to be pushing up

Finding a few more a graders from somewhere is a real need

 

[bedford]

Must say that when I was watching the match I started thinking that libgnire may have timed his leaving well

It’s a bit concerning that our best five or so players on the list include four academy players (mills heeney gulden heeney)

Chad mccartin papley rampe land maybe Grundy are all really important but the rest are basically foot soldiers including Lloyd Hayward and florent who have played a large number of games but are just average league level players and melican amartey wouldn’t be in the top 12 in their position in the league.

I’m fairly pessimistic about the development of the team over the past five years and apart from Roberts who looks ok but no world beater no one really seems to be pushing up

Finding a few more a graders from somewhere is a real need

Roberts will play 200 games , he's only just starting

 

[Deccas]

Florent made one bad decision to run and got done holding the ball, and one failure of execution when he kicked and gave away a goal.

I'm not defending him here, both were really bad but he is getting nailed for it because it came at a crucial time.

But why it was so crucial is that we'd played really badly and had got to a point where everything had to be perfect.

We need a lot more emphasis on letting the Hawks get the ball going their way out of the middle through first and particularly second quarter, as well as the litany of execution failures that gave away goals or lost goal scoring opportunities in those two quarters. The reason that Florent was able to stuff it up twice in five minutes and that to basically cost us the game is that we failed to compete inside in the whole first half.

Outside of Heeney the only player to play thier role to pass mark was Jordon.

Grundy, Rowbottom, Sheldrick, McInerney and Warner all failed on the inside to win the ball or tackle thier opponents who won the ball.

the only player in our whole team not considered to have a low pressure rating was Heeney.

That's not good enough and that's why we lost. Poor application not because of individual skill errors at crucial moments.

 

[WillHayward]

One trade period ago we got Grundy and Adams via trade, can argue over the success but they were both decently rated.

It can turn quickly, who is at the Academy, can the guys we drafted come good- especially if we play them.

Like you said elsewhere a lot of the struggles may be mental here, who played anywhere near their best?.

Some shit signs this week, but they can’t panic so quickly. No point being awesome the first few weeks again then fading either I guess

Don't want to be rude but nobody rated them..
Adams was left out of the Pies GF side and Grundy was playing VFL.
Both not AFL standard imo.
Apart from that we've brought in Jordan, Hamling and Francis. None of whom are any good.
We lost Aliir, Dawson, Cameron, Newman and Hewett.
Thee players out are much better than tha players in . Dawson is a genuine star.
We have also drafted pretty poorly recently.
Hawks picked up Weddell with a pick we traded to them and he looks better than any of our draftees.

 

[The King!]

Don't want to be rude but nobody rated them..
Adams was left out of the Pies GF side and Grundy was playing VFL.
Both not AFL standard imo.
Apart from that we've got Jordan, Hamling and Francis. None of whom are any good.
We lost Aliir, Dawson, Newman and Hewett.

Adams the Vice Captain at Collingwood in 2023 wasn't wanted? he was injured .

Grundy was a unique one, and I recall most were pretty pumped to get him, maybe you weren't sorry.

not sure how we can say they weren't AFL standard going into 2024.

Hewett never bothered me for what Carlton paid but yeah he and the other 3 would be handy and I did find Aliir an odd one especially.

Newman was never going to be as good at Sydney didn't seem to rate him . think he needed a change.

I am not saying every list decision is perfect , far from it. I just don't think we can say no one will come here and be all doom
and gloom one game removed from
the grand final appearance .

I think our main list issue is overpaying especially in terms of length to keep guys , Rampes contract I said at the time was stupid just give him a year. Parker 5 even Lizard we kept signing so quickly and then for long. Why's Mills on such a long deal where was he going ?

But I digress , we lost one game, it was a shitty effort in a lot of ways, but I think we keep the club doors open a little longer

 

[Del198236]

If Battle came to us we’d be moaning that St Kilda didn’t want him.

If Barrass came to us we’d be moaning that we’d overpaid for a bloke with chronic back problems.

We were somehow minor premiers last year despite a supposedly awful draft & trading history, not being a destination club etc etc.

We’ve done ok.

Having said that, it does start to look slightly troubling that Grundy and Adams may have been given contract lengths we may come to regret.

But, as you correctly point out, it’s one game. Foolish to draw any conclusions yet.

Im one of the very few that aren't complaining
Every team has a need to trade to fill holes. We dont get the same opportunities as Vic, SA or WA teams (because of salary cap and location), so we go to the draft.
1-3 years ago, the commentary was 'The Swans have the best young list in the comp', so we've clearly drafted (and developed) well. We need to improve our key position stocks, so we've drafted accordingly.
Amartey is looking very good this year(small sample size), Ive a lot of faith in McCartin and McDonald up forward - All three should get better over the next few years. Buller is an unknown, but if fit could provide a cheap ($alary and draft picks) fwd/ruck or at least some depth.
Riak and Edwards were drafted as over ages (one year closer to being physically ready) and Snell looks good.
Will Green also looks good in the ruck. Grundy was clearly hampered last game, and should get better. He'll prob be a competitive - good ruck for 2025 & 26, by that time Green is likely to have come on.. and we get a couple of shots at replacing Ladhams

I reckon we've done better than ok, and our results are testament to this
ps.. worth noting we've only had 4 top 10 picks in the last 9 drafts

 

[Wheresbuddy]

re

Don't want to be rude but nobody rated them..
Adams was left out of the Pies GF side and Grundy was playing VFL.
Both not AFL standard imo.
Apart from that we've got Jordan, Hamling and Francis. None of whom are any good.
We lost Aliir, Dawson, Newman and Hewett.

The biggest miss was letting Nank go at the end of 2016. Has essentially caused a decade long ruck problem that doesn't look even close to being solved.

 

[caesar88]

I thought Melican was really good. He killed off so many contests where most of our other defenders (Wicks aside) seemed to be getting beaten a lot.

The two punches instead of marks were baffling, but by that point brain fades seemed to have become infectious amongst the team. I was face-palming literally every 60 seconds.

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

Very happy we are mixing it up. We will find out what and who works for us going forward.

In my mind it’s always been a development year, and I’m ok with that. Am happy Cox is trying players out / squad mentality vs the rigid selections by Longmire.

Some will hopefully rise to the challenge and others will make up their own mind or have their papers stamped - hoping Cox follows through.

My tolerance for the 100+ gamers is far far less than the newbies and expectations much higher.

Cox does need to blow the place up a bit if a new culture is to emerge. Looked angry enough in the box to do it. Let’s see…..

JHWF - “tackle must come from within, not some BCF store”

 

[Del198236]

Adams the Vice Captain at Collingwood in 2023 wasn't wanted? he was injured .

Grundy was a unique one, and I recall most were pretty pumped to get him, maybe you weren't sorry.

not sure how we can say they weren't AFL standard going into 2024.

Hewett never bothered me for what Carlton paid but yeah he and the other 3 would be handy and I did find Aliir an odd one especially.

Newman was never going to be as good at Sydney didn't seem to rate him . think he needed a change.

I am not saying every list decision is perfect , far from it. I just don't think we can say no one will come here and be all doom
and gloom one game removed from
the grand final appearance .

I think our main list issue is overpaying especially in terms of length to keep guys , Rampes contract I said at the time was stupid just give him a year. Parker 5 even Lizard we kept signing so quickly and then for long. Why's Mills on such a long deal where was he going ?

But I digress , we lost one game, it was a shitty effort in a lot of ways, but I think we keep the club doors open a little longer

Adams yep, he was rated (not so much by me, but that means sweet FA)
Grundy yep - a unique situation and we did well to get him
losing Hewett and Newman - yep, would be handy, but easily replaced
Allir we had to trade out so we could afford a ruck (we didn't have one after Nankervis went down again and Sinclare retired) - Hickey played a major role in getting us to the 2022 granny

We wanted to contract Parker for three years, he demanded 4. We traded him after three
Rampe has been happily underpaid (according to Rampe interviews) for years. Hes on the final year of his contract and is required to perform and help develop Snell, Edwards and Riak

Mills, Heeney, Papley were all offered long term contracts that run out when they're 31yo. We desperately tried to keep Dawson on the same sort of contract. To build a team around those 4 when they're aged between 25-31 yo was pretty good list mgt (IMO).

Blakey too long - strongly disagree. Imagine what he would be getting offered at the moment.
Over the next 5 years, Blakey could play KPD, intercept defender, rebounding defender, wing, half forward, full forward - did you see what Sicily did friday night? The flexibility that Blakey will offer in the future could be a game changer.

 

[The King!]

Adams yep, he was rated (not so much by me, but that means sweet FA)
Grundy yep - a unique situation and we did well to get him
losing Hewett and Newman - yep, would be handy, but easily replaced
Allir we had to trade out so we could afford a ruck (we didn't have one after Nankervis went down again and Sinclare retired) - Hickey played a major role in getting us to the 2022 granny

We wanted to contract Parker for three years, he demanded 4. We traded him after three
Rampe has been happily underpaid (according to Rampe interviews) for years. Hes on the final year of his contract and is required to perform and help develop Snell, Edwards and Riak

Mills, Heeney, Papley were all offered long term contracts that run out when they're 31yo. We desperately tried to keep Dawson on the same sort of contract. To build a team around those 4 when they're aged between 25-31 yo was pretty good list mgt (IMO).

Blakey too long - strongly disagree. Imagine what he would be getting offered at the moment.
Over the next 5 years, Blakey could play KPD, intercept defender, rebounding defender, wing, half forward, full forward - did you see what Sicily did friday night? The flexibility that Blakey will offer in the future could be a game changer.

Can't lock away talent on decent coin for long years- guys like Blakey etc didn't sign for cheap then complain we don't trade players in (you aren't ) only so much cap space.

Blakey flexibility? to do what , if he is made accountable or dragged deep he struggles? he hasn't shown he can go forward or mid , so far it's half back and loose which he is awesome at in full flight, but he isn't showing any great flexibility yet like a Sicily. He certainly can't play KPD.

Anyway my point is overall we have done pretty well here . I really only
mentioned we signed Mills Blakey Heeney etc to say you can't then go grab player x on huge dollars.

 

[Del198236]

Very happy we are mixing it up. We will find out what and who works for us going forward.

In my mind it’s always been a development year, and I’m ok with that. Am happy Cox is trying players out / squad mentality vs the rigid selections by Longmire.

Some will hopefully rise to the challenge and others will make up their own mind or have their papers stamped - hoping Cox follows through.

My tolerance for the 100+ gamers is far far less than the newbies and expectations much higher.

Cox does need to blow the place up a bit if a new culture is to emerge. Looked angry enough in the box to do it. Let’s see…..

JHWF - “tackle must come from within, not some BCF store”

Why the f**k would Cox need to blow the place up after one loss to a very good team in the first game of the season (and Coxs 1st game as coach) when Grundy and Paps played hampered, and Mills, Gulden, Cunningham, Logan, Fox, (even Dattoli, Mclean, Snell) were all injured..?

Ps.. anyone who goes fishing (I pretty much live out of the ocean) has never walked into a BCF store - its a shit shop that sells shit stuff. And a good footy tackle uses shoulders, core strength and leg drive

 

[Bloods86]

Don't want to be rude but nobody rated them..
Adams was left out of the Pies GF side and Grundy was playing VFL.
Both not AFL standard imo.
Apart from that we've got Jordan, Hamling and Francis. None of whom are any good.
We lost Aliir, Dawson, Newman and Hewett.

Kind of leaving out why Grundy was playing VFL aren't you?

And Jordon no good?

Lol, what are you smoking?

 

[The King!]

Cox is trying to win a flag here still and rightly so that's where we should be aiming .

 

[WillHayward]

Adams the Vice Captain at Collingwood in 2023 wasn't wanted? he was injured .

Grundy was a unique one, and I recall most were pretty pumped to get him, maybe you weren't sorry.

not sure how we can say they weren't AFL standard going into 2024.

Hewett never bothered me for what Carlton paid but yeah he and the other 3 would be handy and I did find Aliir an odd one especially.

Newman was never going to be as good at Sydney didn't seem to rate him . think he needed a change.

I am not saying every list decision is perfect , far from it. I just don't think we can say no one will come here and be all doom
and gloom one game removed from
the grand final appearance .

I think our main list issue is overpaying especially in terms of length to keep guys , Rampes contract I said at the time was stupid just give him a year. Parker 5 even Lizard we kept signing so quickly and then for long. Why's Mills on such a long deal where was he going ?

But I digress , we lost one game, it was a shitty effort in a lot of ways, but I think we keep the club doors open a little longer

Ok but even Adams himself says he was "phased out" of Collingwood's team and MacRae didn't speak with him.

Former Pie dissects final meeting with Craig McRae ahead of long-awaited return to Sydney Derby

‘Blowing wind up my a***”: Former Pie reveals final meeting with ex-coach before trade

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

Why the f**k would Cox need to blow the place up after one loss to a very good team in the first game of the season (and Coxs 1st game as coach) when Grundy and Paps played hampered, and Mills, Gulden, Cunningham, Logan, Fox, (even Dattoli, Mclean, Snell) were all injured..?

Ps.. anyone who goes fishing (I pretty much live out of the ocean) has never walked into a BCF store - its a shit shop that sells shit stuff. And a good footy tackle uses shoulders, core strength and leg drive

None of the outs excuses the lack of pressure and composure from those that played. Winning is an outcome of process and execution.

Florent is an immediate drop to the 2’s for mine. Send a message. No more excuses, zero footy IQ.

 

[WillHayward]

Kind of leaving out why Grundy was playing VFL aren't you?

And Jordon no good?

Lol, what are you smoking?

Collingwood were happy to let Grundy go and Melbourne decided Grundy want good enough to warrant carrying a second ruck.

Melbourne originally planned a dual Ruck system and then phased that idea out once they figured Grundy was actually a bit shit and couldn't play fwd.

Anyway its an opinion game and you think Grundy Adams and Jordan are decent AFL players .

My opinion is we are heading for a bottom out at the worst possible time while Tassie come in so a world of pain ahead.

We needed to go hard for Connor O'Sullivan but of course Geelong get him (who else?)

Beatson was drinking his own bathwater and too fixated on trying to uncover the unfashionable diamond in the rough so he could look like a genius rather than just playing the percentages.

 

[Del198236]

Can't lock away talent on decent coin for long years- guys like Blakey etc didn't sign for cheap then complain we don't trade players in (you aren't ) only so much cap space.

Blakey flexibility? to do what , if he is made accountable or dragged deep he struggles? he hasn't shown he can go forward or mid , so far it's half back and loose which he is awesome at in full flight, but he isn't showing any great flexibility yet like a Sicily. He certainly can't play KPD.

Anyway my point is overall we have done pretty well here . I really only
mentioned we signed Mills Blakey Heeney etc to say you can't then go grab player x on huge dollars.

Kind of agree..
I reckon over the next 5 years we'll see Blakey morph into different roles. No hes not a great KPD, but can definitely help when needed. Ih he had the tank, imagine him in space on the wing (awesome goal friday night). He could easily become a tall fwd - he was as a kid. Anyway, we'll see
The long term contracts to Mills, Heeney, Paps, Blakey, I think were all warranted - its not like they were 10 years and went until the player was 35yo. And they give us flexibility within the cap to go after that 'big fish'. We tried for Barrass, Naughton, McKay, JUH and prob others.
Who knows what the cap situation is? Maybe we've been front loading all those contracts since Buddy retired and Heeney and Mills are on $500k for the remainder ???? Maybe we're screwed and will have to lose a player or two to simply keep Warner.
Last year we drafted 7 players (prob more than all other teams). These guys are on the cheapest contract - reason?

Yep, we've done really well

 

[Bandit55]

Adams yep, he was rated (not so much by me, but that means sweet FA)
Grundy yep - a unique situation and we did well to get him
losing Hewett and Newman - yep, would be handy, but easily replaced
Allir we had to trade out so we could afford a ruck (we didn't have one after Nankervis went down again and Sinclare retired) - Hickey played a major role in getting us to the 2022 granny

We wanted to contract Parker for three years, he demanded 4. We traded him after three
Rampe has been happily underpaid (according to Rampe interviews) for years. Hes on the final year of his contract and is required to perform and help develop Snell, Edwards and Riak

Mills, Heeney, Papley were all offered long term contracts that run out when they're 31yo. We desperately tried to keep Dawson on the same sort of contract. To build a team around those 4 when they're aged between 25-31 yo was pretty good list mgt (IMO).

Blakey too long - strongly disagree. Imagine what he would be getting offered at the moment.
Over the next 5 years, Blakey could play KPD, intercept defender, rebounding defender, wing, half forward, full forward - did you see what Sicily did friday night? The flexibility that Blakey will offer in the future could be a game changer.

Hewett may be easy to replace but we haven’t managed to do it yet.


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[The King!]

Ok but even Adams himself says he was "phased out" of Collingwood's team and MacRae didn't speak with him.

Former Pie dissects final meeting with Craig McRae ahead of long-awaited return to Sydney Derby

‘Blowing wind up my a***”: Former Pie reveals final meeting with ex-coach before trade

www.foxsports.com.au

After the season it seemed to go to shit can't deny that.

Anyway he would need to start doing more , I just think at the time most people were pretty happy we got him and he would fit into a gap we had.

 

[The King!]

Kind of agree..
I reckon over the next 5 years we'll see Blakey morph into different roles. No hes not a great KPD, but can definitely help when needed. Ih he had the tank, imagine him in space on the wing (awesome goal friday night). He could easily become a tall fwd - he was as a kid. Anyway, we'll see
The long term contracts to Mills, Heeney, Paps, Blakey, I think were all warranted - its not like they were 10 years and went until the player was 35yo. And they give us flexibility within the cap to go after that 'big fish'. We tried for Barrass, Naughton, McKay, JUH and prob others.
Who knows what the cap situation is? Maybe we've been front loading all those contracts since Buddy retired and Heeney and Mills are on $500k for the remainder ???? Maybe we're screwed and will have to lose a player or two to simply keep Warner.
Last year we drafted 7 players (prob more than all other teams). These guys are on the cheapest contract - reason?

Yep, we've done really well

I think we mostly agree here to be honest , let's face it and (I know it's not that simple) if we turn up in say 22 and 24 or 16 and 24 and have a couple of premierships all of this is a very different discussion. Getting Grundy and him fading quick but it got a premiership , no one would give a shit now .

re Blakey I think we should be trying him in different roles, I prefer to see him up the ground though, he is so dangerous even 60 out from goal.

Cox probably has some ideas but also needs some of his cattle back