Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Morris Major]

I know that these are two pretty humongous caveats. But if Tom Boyd didn't have the finals series he had and the honourable way he walked away from the game. Then we'd be lamenting the huge cost of his recruitment.

As a pure trade it was hugely expensive I think part of what we paid for was hope, and in that dark period of the 2014 off-season hope was what we desperately needed.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

As a pure trade it was hugely expensive I think part of what we paid for was hope, and in that dark period of the 2014 off-season hope was what we desperately needed.

I think on footballing merit - understanding that there's always going to be uncertainty recruiting a second-year player - the deal is worth it. This is even before you get into the hope, the disaster of the 14-15 offseason element. It's not principally different to Harley Reid potentially getting contracts worth the same to the salary cap as to what Boyd is getting now, you're reasonably paying them for their predicted future output and not what they've done in limited games so far.

Knowing what we knew about his form as an U18 player and his first year, and how big blokes take time to devleop.

Three things we should have probably done differently:

Firstly, gone on the front foot with the media in justifying the deal - a lot of criticism (going back to the Barrett days) about how a player didn't "deserve" that money. It's a bit of a different environment now with teams holding warchests to overpay players and operate in a cap room environment, but in 2014 a lot of the media and football universe still had that old style mindset of paying players as a "reward" for what they already have done, not to use the salary cap in order to try and maximise wins in the future.

Secondly, protected Boyd's mental health and how he dealt with it all.

Thirdly, try to smooth over the relationships with the other players (Zordy bustup etc). Again, address the issue head on. It wouldn't be easy but I think the players would have been more begrudingly accepting of a worse player earning more money than them if they could see the sporting merit in it.

 

[geoffjennings79]

As a pure trade it was hugely expensive I think part of what we paid for was hope, and in that dark period of the 2014 off-season hope was what we desperately needed.

Hope was the driver many times over the decades for examples like using a first round pick for Allen Jakovich (admittedly in an era where drafting was very much a pick and hope era), or using Lachlan Veale as a pawn in the Rawlings recruitment (and overpaying for Street and Koops) in our desperation to be seen to be recruiting someone/anyone. Thank goodness Wallace, Eade and then Beveridge had enough nous to coach, but also identify (with more list management help in Bevo's case) the type of player required. Wallace and Eade were the precursors of Bevo in utilising solid role players like Croft, Dent, Curley, Cross, Hargrave, Hahn, etc to their strengths alongside the bigger flashier names.

Unfortunately Rohde and McCartney were not up to the task, nor Joyce in his latter stages, even though they all had very talented players at their disposal. They didn't possess the emotional/personal engagement to get a list improving and playing for each other.

I wonder if a different coach would have succeeded in getting Tom Boyd, with all his acknowledged insecurities, to play (albeit briefly) at the level he'd showed as a junior. Or if Bevo had arrived while Lake was still there, how that career would have panned out?

Anyway, sorry took that off on a ramble.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Schache would be the most recent player that we gave up a decent amount for and whose output didn't match. There's an argument for Tom Boyd based on output across his original contract, but that's obviously a different story given 2016.

The one good thing about rarely being a destination club is that you usually only need to give up 3rd round picks for the type of players we bring in. Low risk, medium reward types.

In salary cap terms and for output surely Trengove is the worst? On over $2 million for the four years that we signed him for. He probably had less than 15 games where he was clearly a good contributing player for us and that was when we rucked him and didn't even play him in the role where he played most and where we wanted to recruit him for, in defence.

 

[BrisDog]

In salary cap terms and for output surely Trengove is the worst? On over $2 million for the four years that we signed him for. He probably had less than 15 games where he was clearly a good contributing player for us and that was when we rucked him and didn't even play him in the role where he played most and where we wanted to recruit him for, in defence.

That was peak Bevo, tear your hair out stuff.

 

[bobs head soup]

Schache would be the most recent player that we gave up a decent amount for and whose output didn't match. There's an argument for Tom Boyd based on output across his original contract, but that's obviously a different story given 2016.

The one good thing about rarely being a destination club is that you usually only need to give up 3rd round picks for the type of players we bring in. Low risk, medium reward types.

The other one is probably Mitch Hannan. Only paid a future 3rd but also gave a pretty healthy contract to get him across

Played a couple of good finals but, overall, only played around 30 games so would be considered a bit of an underperformer.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

That was peak Bevo, tear your hair out stuff.

I think the brains trust at our club and the Bevo philosophy is that there's so much uncertainty with developing young talls - and we're seeing that with our own high draft picks in Croft and Busslinger - that if you can get in mature talent, get in talls that have already proven in the past that they have played well at AFL level. I'm not so certain it's logic with merit, but at least it's consistent.

Cloke, Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Keath, O'Brien, Lobb, Jones.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The other one is probably Mitch Hannan. Only paid a future 3rd but also gave a pretty healthy contract to get him across

Played a couple of good finals but, overall, only played around 30 games so would be considered a bit of an underperformer.

Agreed but probably played a bit better on a bit less money than Trengove.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

If it’s true Zane Duursma is not happy at North I wonder if we have a crack. He was a very impressive junior.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

If it’s true Zane Duursma is not happy at North I wonder if we have a crack. He was a very impressive junior.

BTW Leigh Montagna said this. Don’t think he’s ever said something like that, which makes it more believable imo.

 

[Foxman98]

If it’s true Zane Duursma is not happy at North I wonder if we have a crack. He was a very impressive junior.

He has looked fairly shite so far but then again would be hard to look decent at North

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Hope was the driver many times over the decades for examples like using a first round pick for Allen Jakovich (admittedly in an era where drafting was very much a pick and hope era), or using Lachlan Veale as a pawn in the Rawlings recruitment (and overpaying for Street and Koops) in our desperation to be seen to be recruiting someone/anyone. Thank goodness Wallace, Eade and then Beveridge had enough nous to coach, but also identify (with more list management help in Bevo's case) the type of player required. Wallace and Eade were the precursors of Bevo in utilising solid role players like Croft, Dent, Curley, Cross, Hargrave, Hahn, etc to their strengths alongside the bigger flashier names.

Unfortunately Rohde and McCartney were not up to the task, nor Joyce in his latter stages, even though they all had very talented players at their disposal. They didn't possess the emotional/personal engagement to get a list improving and playing for each other.

I wonder if a different coach would have succeeded in getting Tom Boyd, with all his acknowledged insecurities, to play (albeit briefly) at the level he'd showed as a junior. Or if Bevo had arrived while Lake was still there, how that career would have panned out?

Anyway, sorry took that off on a ramble.

None of us like McCartney, because of the damage he did to the players, particularly belittling the older players in Boyd and Morris, however, he did instigate some badly needed systems in places. Recruitment for example he made them list every player in order of their strengths, something we didn’t do previously.

 

[Morris Major]

In salary cap terms and for output surely Trengove is the worst? On over $2 million for the four years that we signed him for. He probably had less than 15 games where he was clearly a good contributing player for us and that was when we rucked him and didn't even play him in the role where he played most and where we wanted to recruit him for, in defence.

What stung for me with Trengove was we had to give Jordan Roughead the arse, who not only loved the club but ended up having a more than serviceable stint at Collingwood.

 

[Libbaaaa]

What stung for me with Trengove was we had to give Jordan Roughead the arse, who not only loved the club but ended up having a more than serviceable stint at Collingwood.

I'll maintain that Roughy was beyond cooked and remarkably turned it around which was awesome for him. However he now appears to be a Collingwood person which sucks.

 

[Del203211]

If it’s true Zane Duursma is not happy at North I wonder if we have a crack. He was a very impressive junior.

Absolutely but wouldn’t come cheap.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

I'll maintain that Roughy was beyond cooked and remarkably turned it around which was awesome for him. However he now appears to be a Collingwood person which sucks.

Roughy seemed to fallout of love with the club before that, not sure why. He said as much in an interview once, about not feeling valued or words to that effect. It must have been bad because he was a Bulldog growing up

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

If it’s true Zane Duursma is not happy at North I wonder if we have a crack. He was a very impressive junior.

I am sure he is not the only one, I would not be surprised if a few are looking at their options.

 

[Turtleman3]

There are no really solid reasons in my (probably biased) view why we are not a destination club.

Consistently in the top half of the ladder and play finals, two grand final appearances in the last 10 years, well run administratively, stable coaching department comparatively, good drafting, trading, and development of players record comparatively speaking, and world class facilities.

Only not being a big club who plays in marquee games or historical biases are the only real reasons I can think are reasons for not attracting more 'big' name players.

What am I missing?

 

[lachy]

There are no really solid reasons in my (probably biased) view why we are not a destination club.

Consistently in the top half of the ladder and play finals, two grand final appearances in the last 10 years, well run administratively, stable coaching department comparatively, good drafting, trading, and development of players record comparatively speaking, and world class facilities.

Only not being a big club who plays in marquee games or historical biases are the only real reasons I can think are reasons for not attracting more 'big' name players.

What am I missing?

None of the Marvel clubs have been Destination Clubs, including Essendon and Carlton who do play in Marquee games at the G. They have overpaid significantly for B and C grade players to pretend they are destination clubs

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

I actually watched butters close against Carlton and oh my goodness. Imagine him going through our midfield, wowww

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I'll maintain that Roughy was beyond cooked and remarkably turned it around which was awesome for him. However he now appears to be a Collingwood person which sucks.

His key defender play worked under Buckley (same way it worked under McCartney) in a defensive oriented system where teammates would roll back, rather than press up, and he could then use his leap and spoiling ability over the top of packs and his lack of natural defensive instinct nous wouldn't cost him if he had teammates to cover.

I agree he was pretty much cooked under the more high-octane Bevo system whether as a ruck or a key position player, and yeah, it sucks that he's a Collingwood person as he remains one of our very few premiership players.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

There are no really solid reasons in my (probably biased) view why we are not a destination club.

Consistently in the top half of the ladder and play finals, two grand final appearances in the last 10 years, well run administratively, stable coaching department comparatively, good drafting, trading, and development of players record comparatively speaking, and world class facilities.

Only not being a big club who plays in marquee games or historical biases are the only real reasons I can think are reasons for not attracting more 'big' name players.

What am I missing?

Western suburbs not as nice to live in
Fewer opportunities to make money through third party sponsorships and build a name
More travel/playing in worse locations (we go to Canberra and not Sydney to play GWS, we go to Darwin and not GC to play GC, we travel to Perth more than other teams)...
Don't get to play at the MCG as often
Smaller crowds
Less "impressive" to very moderate football fans in social circles who are more impressed if you tell them you play for Collingwood or Richmond than if you play for the Dogs

 

[RWnBluey]

I actually watched butters close against Carlton and oh my goodness. Imagine him going through our midfield, wowww

Legit top 5 player in the comp. Worth the price tag and draft capital every day of the week

 

[Angak]

I actually watched butters close against Carlton and oh my goodness. Imagine him going through our midfield, wowww

Very interesting press conference he gave last week.... his tone seems to have shifted.

Preseason, he said family is really important to him and that he’s a Victorian boy at heart. But last week, he said family is still important, though the decision will be purely football based. You rarely hear a player wanting to go home frame it that way, even if it is about footy or money they usually dress it up as a family decision.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Western suburbs not as nice to live in
Fewer opportunities to make money through third party sponsorships and build a name
More travel/playing in worse locations (we go to Canberra and not Sydney to play GWS, we go to Darwin and not GC to play GC, we travel to Perth more than other teams)...
Don't get to play at the MCG as often
Smaller crowds
Less "impressive" to very moderate football fans in social circles who are more impressed if you tell them you play for Collingwood or Richmond than if you play for the Dogs

In a nutshell less prestige, and financial enducements.