Autopsy Sunburnt

[poshman]

1. I thought Pearce was fine in the first 3 quarters last night. He’s a very good player. Yeah he wasn’t at his absolute best but he was far from out biggest problem on the night. He can be a slow starter but isn’t on an island there at this club.
- Rowell towelled us up in the middle of the park for the whole first half. That was midfields fault. Nothing to do with Pearce.
2. Yea he has I believe. There could be heaps of our players in a similar boat that we don’t know about though. It’s only because of that Hamish interview that we know this.
3. I agree we are slow to get fully up to speed in a lot of games. That isn’t solely on the captain though. Responsibly for being at the pitch of the game lies mostly with each individual player in my view.
4. I thought the first 3 quarters of AP were ok, by his standards. He was not terrible though and his direct opponent didn’t do great damage in that period. Far from our biggest issue last night in those 3 quarters. You said his 4th quarter was “very good”. Possibly one of the biggest understatements I’ve read on this thread. It was one of the all time great quarters ever played by a key defender in any game. As close to footballing perfection as an individual player can get - when the need was greatest.

I’m not sure what you want exactly from Pearce. Do you want him dropped from the team altogether?
If so that’s lunacy. I’ve seen you pumping up players like chapman in the past on here, who is quite frankly a spud compared to Alex Pearce.
Cox I don’t mind but he had a shocking last few mins yesterday - to me looked like a guy that froze when the pressure was greatest.

For me AP is the first magnet on the board on that defence. Yes he’s flawed (his kicking is shit) but the other parts of his game as a key defender are absolutely elite.
Players like Chapman, Banfield, worner, etc are all average to poor kicks too. The difference is they are not elite at anything. At least Alex is.
We have 4 shit kicks in that back 7. That’s a team problem. Three of them are pretty ordinary at everything else too. One of them (Pearce) is elite in other areas. You don’t get rid of him.
Instead you replace two of worner/chapman/banfield with guys that actually are high quality afl kicks, and then the relative affect of pearces bad kicking is diluted.
Judd mc vee instead of Banfield would be a decent start. Hope that Simpson comes on.
As for AP being captain - I’d be happy to see Serong or AB get it either next year but I think Alex is a good leader too and I’m not convinced at all that our problems would magically disappear if he wasn’t captain.

I have not once called for him to be dropped. I don't think he can be captain any longer.

He is the captain and can't lead at the start of games if he himself is compromised.

He was a non entity for the first three quarters, and did not impact positively for us in that time. We can't have a captain who goes missing, regularly for large chunks of the biggest games.

Disagree on Chappy being a crap kick. He is a very good kick. The issue we have with him and some others, is a timidity to take ground and attack when there is an option to do so. Clark has permission and very few others do, or very few others are willing to do so. Either way that is a coaching issue.

I haven't said our issues will magically disappear if he isn't captain. That is arguing in poor faith. Pearce is almost a guarantee to miss 5-9 games a season. And he has confidence issues in big games.

When it comes to us not knowing about his nervous starts... many of us have and have been pointing it out for years. There are a lot of people here who refuse any criticism of him. I agree he is a diabolical kick, yet some here were willing to argue that earlier this year (not you, from memory).

He is close to 30, misses big chunks of the year, most years and melts under pressure early in big games.

How is our young list going to learn composure from our veteran leaders, when our captain and key vet leader doesn't have it when the heat is on early?

I would love for him to get over it, At this point it is something that has been with him for years and he hasn't worked out.

As to your claim of it being one of the all time great quarters ever played... that is a heap of mayo. I will give you that it was excellent. And I was cheering every contest and mark and piece of brilliance, because at times that is what it was, brilliant! What I would prefer is a Harris Andrews type performance over four quarters. Go and watch what he did to us a few weeks back.

Imagine if Pearce had 40-50% of that influence in other patches throughout the night?

Maybe we have to tell the team that we are all out attack, nothing to lose mode from the first bounce? Perhaps that will take the pressure off him? We certainly play better footy when we are attacking with intention.

 

[poshman]

Pearce had one of the greatest fourth quarters I can remember last night. Absolutely phenomenal. Should he still be captain though.........who knows?
I'm actually not a fan of his foray into political arguments. Yeah, I know everyone has freedom of speech. But expressing your right to speak freely just because you can, doesn't necessarily help everyone, every time.

Yes and he was poor through the first three.

His combination of missing large chunks of football and nervous starts are something as a club we haven't been able to overcome.

I would have him out of the leadership group - like Fyfe he will lead anyway. Then give him and the team license to attack from first bounce.

 

[Bringbacktheeighties]

The top sides don't see success because their fans froth at the mouth over a loss and shit on all their players after a game. Clubs that do that implode (see Carlton). Are you forgetting that the Pies didn't even make finals last year?

Do you think your angry rants on bigfooty get read out at board meetings? "Oh well Swanny1234 is unhappy with our season guys so let's sack JLO and pull a successful hardnut premiership coach that is both available and willing to move to Perth out of thin air"

Something that is proven to work (in football, workplaces, life) is SUPPORT. Embracing people for who they are and the strengths they have (and that can range from a coach that is meek and mild like JLO or soft spoken and never played high level football like Fagan to BIG CHEST Vossy or even to the annoying mosquito fleet at Hawks).

Freo have been making impressive in roads regarding culture on and off the field. The people that are there want success, perhaps even more than you or I. The Lions hadn't seen success (in recent years) before big names started to request trades there. But they built an environment people wanted to be in and contribute to. We are in that part of the cycle now.

I am devastated we let our opportunity slip this year. But I also firmly believe the club is heading in the right direction. The success WILL come.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[Bringbacktheeighties]

In reality we've had three succesive finals
Lions
Dogs
GC

and only been able to win one.

2.12 on the clock and we lead by a goal after dominating the quarter, the best comedy writer could not make up the script whereby we let them score seven points from there. All those pre season match sim scenarios JLo, amounted to nothing, Mr Defensive, stop watching TV and trying to emulate what real teams do.

They didn’t amount to nothing. We won most of these situations this season can’t remember the record but we came back from being behind in last quarters a number of times.
Similar to Collingwood, eventually you end up falling short but geez we won most of them.

 

[Dockeroo]

If you can close your ears while the unbearable Tom Morris is talking shit here - there is some great points made by Bartel and Hird.

The Banfield vision is incredibly revealing - he wheels onto his right boot as the play naturally takes him there and should have played on but of course he cannot kick on that side with precision and confidence so has to stop, delay for 3 or 4 seconds then kick long to a contest with his left.

You CANNOT carry guys like that in the back half of field and expect to compete with the top sides.

Luke Ryan’s ball movement is not much better TBH. His kick ins are very poor and unimaginative too.
Unlike Banfield though he is at least elite at winning contests and reading the play so you can accept carrying his stodgy ball movement as part of the overall package.

Chapmans long handball was great in that clip btw. How come we don’t see more of that? poshman i disagree Chappy is a very good kick. He’s average, serviceable is probably the best way to describe it. His issue is he’s not elite at anything unlike Pearce or Ryan. He’s pretty good at several things but not A grade at any aspect of the game.

If you have players that are flawed in aspects but elite in others, a good coach can build a team around their strengths and insulate the team against their weaknesses.
If you have too many guys like chapman that are reasonably good at lots of things but not elite at anything, then it’s harder to build a team that has a high enough ceiling to win the flag.

To be clear - it’s worner and Banfield that are the weakest links in our back 7.

Clark - A grader

Pearce, Ryan, Cox - B grade but elite in some things.

Chapman - C grade, serviceable but not quite as good as the 3 B graders

Worner and Banfield are D grade. Good honest battlers but they are not getting a look in at the likes of Collingwood, Geelong, Brisbane, even the suns.
If you wanna know what the level is - John Noble

2

John Noble

Age

28

Ht

180cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.3

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.1

4star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

186.1

3star

D

14.2

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.8

3star

MG

149.7

3star

D

18.8

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

229.8

4star

was discarded by the pies as he wasn’t considered good enough.
Would he play for freo ahead of Banfield or worner at half back - of course he would. And he’s probably their weakest defender. Don’t get me started on Will Powell and Uwland… they are stacked unfortunately.

 

[Madas]

Have to agree JOM is a great clubmen/person but his lack of pace is a killer , time to make the tough call

Yeh hes done surely

In a full strength team and assuming Raz stays then Omeara should be the sub
Too slow with disposals , can tackle well and does go in for the hard ball but goes to ground too much and looks for the boundary too often.

If he’s coached to create stoppage then that’s a different story .

I think Erasmus would be an improvement on JOM

 

[Madas]

It was a free kick every day of the week

Tackle - ball spilled cox didn’t need to pile drive him

Just a footy incident

Definitely not every day of the week , plenty of them get let go
Ump blew that whistle very quickly which means he either wanted to influence the game or he didn’t see that Swallow had possession

 

[Dockeroo]

Random thought - why did Walters retire in early August? Was he injured for the rest of the season anyway?

If he’d gotten himself fit in the last month I’d have out him in there last night instead of Frederick - His football brain alone would have been an upgrade.

 

[s_wd6]

Random thought - why did Walters retire in early August? Was he injured for the rest of the season anyway?

If he’d gotten himself fit in the last month I’d have out him in there last night instead of Frederick - His football brain alone would have been an upgrade.

Needed surgery on the knee. It was cooked. He wasn’t playing again

 

[stax on the mull]

The last few weeks I felt like Chapman and Ryan are basically covering the same position in the team and what's the point of having two of them playing that role, except that Ryan takes more kick ins. They've both got defensive jobs covering talls and smalls so neither of them are playing creatively.

I thought Chapman used the ball well enough against GC, but there's something wrong with Ryan's kicking at the moment that he has to fix. Maybe his worst kick was the one, not in a kick/mark/stop situation, but in open play where we had runners out and he looked to an option to spread the field wide (I think it was in the 3rd quarter) - so he kicked across the square to outer side where we were making a break, but his kick went too high so the Gold Coast player who was chasing was able to get to a contest at the drop of the ball - and I think it was a turnover in the end.

 

[stax on the mull]

Of the 23 goals scored in the game, not many were from the midfielders.

Erasmus 1, Fiorini 1, Davies 1 got that free-kick goal off the O'Driscoll holding the ball (which I thought was a harsh call) - and not sure where Budarick was playing - he got 2, one after O'Meara went to ground where it was 2 v 2 contest near the square.

All the other goals were from forwards - or in Mac Andrew's case, a player that moved forward.

 

[apuchar]

I never thought I would say this but Freddie is an absolute disgrace at times.
NOD is disappointing. He was a better footballer earlier in his career.
We need to be done with JOM. Too slow mentally and physically. The game has passed him by.
We probably need a more proactive midfield coach than Corey and ffs find a proper structure/stoppage coach.

 

[poshman]

If you can close your ears while the unbearable Tom Morris is talking shit here - there is some great points made by Bartel and Hird.

The Banfield vision is incredibly revealing - he wheels onto his right boot as the play naturally takes him there and should have played on but of course he cannot kick on that side with precision and confidence so has to stop, delay for 3 or 4 seconds then kick long to a contest with his left.

You CANNOT carry guys like that in the back half of field and expect to compete with the top sides.

Luke Ryan’s ball movement is not much better TBH. His kick ins are very poor and unimaginative too.
Unlike Banfield though he is at least elite at winning contests and reading the play so you can accept carrying his stodgy ball movement as part of the overall package.

Chapmans long handball was great in that clip btw. How come we don’t see more of that? poshman i disagree Chappy is a very good kick. He’s average, serviceable is probably the best way to describe it. His issue is he’s not elite at anything unlike Pearce or Ryan. He’s pretty good at several things but not A grade at any aspect of the game.

If you have players that are flawed in aspects but elite in others, a good coach can build a team around their strengths and insulate the team against their weaknesses.
If you have too many guys like chapman that are reasonably good at lots of things but not elite at anything, then it’s harder to build a team that has a high enough ceiling to win the flag.

To be clear - it’s worner and Banfield that are the weakest links in our back 7.

Clark - A grader

Pearce, Ryan, Cox - B grade but elite in some things.

Chapman - C grade, serviceable but not quite as good as the 3 B graders

Worner and Banfield are D grade. Good honest battlers but they are not getting a look in at the likes of Collingwood, Geelong, Brisbane, even the suns.
If you wanna know what the level is - John Noble was discarded by the pies as he wasn’t considered good enough.
Would he play for freo ahead of Banfield or worner at half back - of course he would. And he’s probably their weakest defender. Don’t get me started on Will Powell and Uwland… they are stacked unfortunately.

I agree that we have a lot of positives top come in the next few years! I have been saying it for a couple of years now.

Re: Chapman - he is a very good kick. We see him win contests and create by handball a lot. We have also seen the attack and dare disappear from his game.

Re: Pearce and it being the best quarter ever by a key defender... I just rewatched the fourth. He was very good. He was also in front of Andrew at the drop and couldn't make a contest. He was manned on a mid sized forward not a KPF and couldn't make the contest... Watch it and pause it. Then watch it again. He had the drop of the ball and waves a hand at it. Tell me what you think?

He was in a two on two and King marked on his head. He then took a great contested mark and the ball was marked off his kick and came straight back down the middle, where Chappy saved us, after a bad kick by Swallow. He intercepted another kick when the kicker should have hit his opponent but shanked one short to Pearce. Got lucky but you take it. He took another intercept mark when it was two on one and he was in front. That should be taken. Was he very good in the fourth? Yes. Was it the best quarter by a KPD in the history of football? Go watch the fourth again and let me know. He as also playing on a skinny youngster during this period.

Re: His inability to play well early. With 1:40 to go the game is 8 - 4 to 9 - 13. We were lucky the game wasn't already over. King missed a couple he should have kicked based on in season form. I counted 4 that we got extremely lucky on and there were a couple of others that we were just fortunate on. If the game is 13 - 9 it is done. The argument that Pearce being a non factor in the first three quarters isn't one I can agree with, especially from our captain.

 

[Andy Brennan]

The top sides don't see success because their fans froth at the mouth over a loss and shit on all their players after a game. Clubs that do that implode (see Carlton). Are you forgetting that the Pies didn't even make finals last year?

Do you think your angry rants on bigfooty get read out at board meetings? "Oh well Swanny1234 is unhappy with our season guys so let's sack JLO and pull a successful hardnut premiership coach that is both available and willing to move to Perth out of thin air"

Something that is proven to work (in football, workplaces, life) is SUPPORT. Embracing people for who they are and the strengths they have (and that can range from a coach that is meek and mild like JLO or soft spoken and never played high level football like Fagan to BIG CHEST Vossy or even to the annoying mosquito fleet at Hawks).

Freo have been making impressive in roads regarding culture on and off the field. The people that are there want success, perhaps even more than you or I. The Lions hadn't seen success (in recent years) before big names started to request trades there. But they built an environment people wanted to be in and contribute to. We are in that part of the cycle now.

I am devastated we let our opportunity slip this year. But I also firmly believe the club is heading in the right direction. The success WILL come.

Might believe you a little bit if we get through trade period without anyone wanting out. And maybe someone wanting in that's best 22

 

[Dockeroo]

I agree that we have a lot of positives top come in the next few years! I have been saying it for a couple of years now.

Re: Chapman - he is a very good kick. We see him win contests and create by handball a lot. We have also seen the attack and dare disappear from his game.

Re: Pearce and it being the best quarter ever by a key defender... I just rewatched the fourth. He was very good. He was also in front of Andrew at the drop and couldn't make a contest. He was manned on a mid sized forward not a KPF and couldn't make the contest... Watch it and pause it. Then watch it again. He had the drop of the ball and waves a hand at it. Tell me what you think?

He was in a two on two and King marked on his head. He then took a great contested mark and the ball was marked off his kick and came straight back down the middle, where Chappy saved us, after a bad kick by Swallow. He intercepted another kick when the kicker should have hit his opponent but shanked one short to Pearce. Got lucky but you take it. He took another intercept mark when it was two on one and he was in front. That should be taken. Was he very good in the fourth? Yes. Was it the best quarter by a KPD in the history of football? Go watch the fourth again and let me know. He as also playing on a skinny youngster during this period.

Re: His inability to play well early. With 1:40 to go the game is 8 - 4 to 9 - 13. We were lucky the game wasn't already over. King missed a couple he should have kicked based on in season form. I counted 4 that we got extremely lucky on and there were a couple of others that we were just fortunate on. If the game is 13 - 9 it is done. The argument that Pearce being a non factor in the first three quarters isn't one I can agree with, especially from our captain.

Don’t understand this detailed dissection of every slight negative aspect of pearces game over the 4 quarters. What about the other 22 guys on the field? How come other higher paid fremantle players aren’t getting held to this standard?

1. What did you think of Fredericks performance in the last 2 games?
2. What about Karl worner making Bailey Humphrey look like prime Dusty Martin?
3. O’Meara is a leadership group member - he was diabolical again all night, how can we compete if he’s running around as our 4th mid every game?
4. What about Jackson and Bolton? They have escaped scrutiny for me since Saturday night - I thought they were both quite poor, much worse than Pearce actually. Two of our highest paid stars.
5. Jye amiss. 2 touches - that’s just a joke. Then to make it worse he missed one of them that was quite kickable.

I’m optimistic about freo too. The problem is I’m also optimistic about 8 or 9 other teams too over the next few years. The question is what is going to separate us from them?
To win the flag we need to finish top 4, and most likely top 2. Is this team good enough to do that? I think if you get to a place where Banfield, worner, NOD, JOM, and Frederick are no longer in the starting 22 and the likes of chapman or amiss is the 22/23rd best guy instead of the 17th, then we can start talking about a top 2 place and a flag.

What a lot of optimists on here overlook is that the only thing that matters is how good we are relative to the top teams. We cannot win the flag finishing 5th if there is 4 other teams better than us with double chances and home finals. It’s just impossible for a WA based team.
The suns are about to add two more top 5 picks on the national draft. To a list that’s already stacked. Brisbane are trading in quality mature players left right and centre. Hawthorn and Geelong the same.

We need a hell of a lot more to go right for us than those teams do to even get into the mix with them. It’s shit but it’s the way this stupid comp is stacked against us.

 

[Rockmelon]

I don't care about his political beliefs at all. There are some people on this site who I would disagree on a lot of things politically who I talk to and can enjoy being friends with. Your thoughts about politics are what is wrong with the whole ideological divide over the last two decades. One of my business partners would vote differently to me almost every time, yet we are very close friends. He comes to my kids birthday parties and me his etc etc.

Now to the point about Pearce. I notice you haven't engaged with my argument, which I can only assume is because you don't have one. He was very good in the last quarter. He was poor or worse in the first three. This isn't a one off. He has admitted to having therapy for problems with nervous starts. He still has those problems. He comes good in games where the team throws caution to the wind in nothing to lose mode. He goes to water in tough contested games against good teams.

I call him out in some wins and the occasional loss. When asked I have provided video evidence of his kicking and we have him on record admitting his issue with the start of games.

Now we are past your nonsense of presumed knowledge, can you answer these questions:

1. Is it predictable that Pearce struggles early in big games?
2. Has he spoken about getting therapy to help with that very issue?
3. Is he the captain of a club who struggles early in big games?
4. How do you rate his first, second and third quarters?

Serong & Brayshaw need to be captains because of this exact reason. Alex and his nervous starts unfortunately seem to set the tone for the rest of the team.

 

[ImperialPurple]

I’ll just leave this here.

 

[rubydoomsday]

2 things lost us that game: Freddie's blunders/lack of defensive pressure (basically no-one forward brings what Switta does) and

...Ryan and Cox faffing around with it up the back instead of taking the game on when we're leading with 3 minutes to play.

you don't f slow down with 3 minutes on the clock and such a slender lead. you take the game on, try to get another/two and ice it.

even if you concede one, at least it's a centre bounce and more balanced odds. yes, i know we've been good at scoring from D50/back half this year, but in a final??? under that pressure? play the percentages, ffs. you know in that scenario GC are gonna lift in desperation and intensity too, we had just nicked momentum back from them.

we absolutely Dockered a match that was there for the winning. with a slow start, then shitty tactics at the death, ironically our strong suit all season.

credit where it's due, GC are a good team, who played really well. they're not the full deal yet but so much talent all over the park.

 

[The Feeder Club]

I’ll just leave this here.

View attachment 2419955

We're so irrelevant to them.
Not a big legacy club supported by Vic media that they need to suck up to, not a small vanity project they need to constantly prop up.
We keep our porridge the right temperature, our bed the most comfortable, and the rampant corporate goldilocks that is the AFL just defiles us without a second thought

 

[Spirit Level]

I’ll just leave this here.

View attachment 2419955

And i get laughed at when I talk about this.....

It's an entertainment organisation, not a professional sports competition. Results will always be bent and shaped to fit the agenda of the AFL.

You've got your head in the sand if you think otherwise

 

[Pivot Piece]

Did people really think that Cox free wasn’t a free kick live? I mean you can slow it down to your life’s content but on first viewing I think the whole stadium thought it was a free. Bit rich to call it rigged. We lost the game twice (second quarter and last 3 minutes)

 

[Madas]

Did people really think that Cox free wasn’t a free kick live? I mean you can slow it down to your life’s content but on first viewing I think the whole stadium thought it was a free. Bit rich to call it rigged. We lost the game twice (second quarter and last 3 minutes)

It wasn’t a free live ( was right in front of where we sat ) and still not a free the 5 times I’ve slowed it down
To put it in context I umpire club football so have some clue what I’m on about .

Cox had every right to tackle as Swallow had possession of the ball , however his forward motion held Swallow for a second too long despite the ball being broken loose by a good tackle .

A good umpire with no agenda sees all of this and calls play on

It’s not where we lost the game but it was a bullshit decision

There were at least 10 other moments we stuffed up I could reel off that have all been covered here but that decision against Cox was not how that game should have been decided

 

[s_wd6]

Did people really think that Cox free wasn’t a free kick live? I mean you can slow it down to your life’s content but on first viewing I think the whole stadium thought it was a free. Bit rich to call it rigged. We lost the game twice (second quarter and last 3 minutes)

No one calling it rigged mate. Swallow had possession of the ball when he was tackled and it wasn’t knocked out, it was dropped. I was there and thought it was ball initially. Once they didn’t call that and the tackle lingered it was obviously going to be a free. It’s really a borderline call that looks worse because Swallow dropped it as soon as he felt contact.

People are just pissed off that a borderline free like that was called when it clearly was going to decide the game.
call.

For me there was one single moment that lost us the game and it wasn’t that call, nor was it Cox and Ryan chipping it around the back. There was 180 seconds left. You want to shave as much time off the clock and their kick to kick takes 45 seconds off. What lost it was our talls failing to half the contest when everyone knew that the kick was going to go there.

 

[Madas]

No one calling it rigged mate. Swallow had possession of the ball when he was tackled and it wasn’t knocked out, it was dropped. I was there and thought it was ball initially. Once they didn’t call that and the tackle lingered it was obviously going to be a free. It’s really a borderline call that looks worse because Swallow dropped it as soon as he felt contact.

People are just pissed off that a borderline free like that was called when it clearly was going to decide the game.
call.

For me there was one single moment that lost us the game and it wasn’t that call, nor was it Cox and Ryan chipping it around the back. There was 180 seconds left. You want to shave as much time off the clock and their kick to kick takes 45 seconds off. What lost it was our talls falling to half the contest when everyone knew that the kick was going to go there.

100%
The whole team needed to get numbers around that ball and kill it

Still pissed that Cox didn’t see/ hear Brayshaw and take that option but I understand what he was trying to do

This bloody hurts

 

[s_wd6]

100%
The whole team needed to get numbers around that ball and kill it

Still pissed that Cox didn’t see/ hear Brayshaw and take that option but I understand what he was trying to do

This bloody hurts

I can’t say shit cos in that moment all I wanted was for them to do a bit of uncontested kick to kick and shave time off. I didn’t see Brayshaw either and refuse to watch a replay of it, but I still don’t really think the option they chose was that bad and it was more the fault of the guys up the ground