Hot Topic CARLTON SUPPORTERS ONLY - Carlton fires Captain Carlton

[Gethelred]

Carlton caught up in fresh storm over club mascot

A statement has been issued and the person at the centre of the incident has been sacked.

7news.com.au

This thread is for the discussion of the sacking of a club mascot after refusing to participate in a bar mitzvah which was allegedly sending money back to the IDF.

By taking this position and labelling the act racist, the club has taken a position on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

This thread concerns a discussion of the following:

• whether it is acceptable for the club to fire someone for taking a political stance.
• whether it is a good idea for the club to have taken a public position on this issue.

This thread is not a thread in which you should partake in expressing your political beliefs concerning the conflict, nor is it somewhere in which forum rules do not apply.

Should you seek to participate in conversation related to the war, you can do so here:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack IV - Probable Case of Genocide

Continued from Part III https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack-iii.1381570/ Original Post, October 7, 2023: Israel declares state of war In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has...

www.bigfooty.com

There's also a thread on the SRP for a more robust discussion than can be permitted here:

Moved Thread - Blues mascot 'Captain Carlton' sacked after walking out of Bar Mitzvah and comments about Zionists.

Blues off to a flyer for the off season :D But surely one can criticise the actions of the IDF without being 'anti semitic' ‘Not doing this for f---ing Zios’: Captain Carlton mascot storms out of Bar Mitzvah celebration A man working as a mascot for the Carlton Football Club has stunned...

www.bigfooty.com

If you wish to participate in this thread, do so knowing that this will not be allowed to escalate beyond a point.

Thanks all!

 

[ctwenty1]

As I've said earlier, this is a pretty simple case for mine.

When the boy said he was donating funds to wounded Israeli soldiers, and CC simply walked out, I very much doubt any action would have been taken by the club...perhaps a stern talking to at worst.

But once he added "I’m not doing this for f**ing Zios", that's a whole different story. At that point, he's not just expressing a personal view - he’s bringing the club he represents into disrepute. And that’s fair game for disciplinary action IMO.

Still how he was there I think may matter as a favour or officially. But idk - maybe it doesnt matter in an unfair dismisall case. He was there as CC so clearly there as a "rep" of the club.

 

[El Topo]

As I've said earlier, this is a pretty simple case for mine.

When the boy said he was donating funds to wounded Israeli soldiers, and CC simply walked out, I very much doubt any action would have been taken by the club...perhaps a stern talking to at worst.

But once he added "I’m not doing this for f**ing Zios", that's a whole different story. At that point, he's not just expressing a personal view - he’s bringing the club he represents into disrepute. And that’s fair game for disciplinary action IMO.

That's the big gap in all this - was he overheard saying this to a band member (as Ferris suggests) or to his club handler, or was it the theatrical outburst implied by the tabloid coverage?

 

[goreds]

If they asked him to put some money in the hat, that's outside of the scope of the job description. If the club gave a gift to the kid, then asking a rep of the club to contribute personally while doing the work assigned by the club is a bit rude.

That's where we need to find out whether someone at the club was doing it as a favour to one of the "senior club members" who were there or whether the parents had paid for the appearance. If the club was paid for his appearance, it's a work place issxue and could end up with the club getting sued. CC should have been given explicit instructions of his duties, as laid out in a contract, at the party... you know, a couple of backflips, a photo op with the kid, shake some hands, get the **** out of there once you've fulfilled your duties.

If it was done as a favour for a club member, then there needs to be an investigation and heads need to roll.

Again, politely say no and get on with your job!

Is this confirmed as happening??

 

[El Topo]

The Carlton Football Club is a very politically correct, inclusive, culturally sensitive club.

One could argue that we are more focussed on being this and not enough on the ruthlessness of being a good football team. In any event, they can both co-exist to an extent.

You all really think our club with likes of Paddy Kinnersley on the board are not going to have done a full investigation before arriving at the decision to step this guy down. The very nature of the dismissal would have gone to board level and would have been given legal sign-off and reputation management would have been highly considered.

There is a person behind that CC uniform. Somehow you are mixing all that up. What is a Carlton employee turned up as invited guest to AWFL players party and vilified to pro LGBT crowd. You would all be calling for his head on a stick, rather than all the virtue signalling in this thread.

The board with PK are absolutely the types to throw an employee under the bus to avoid a negative publicity campaign - like the boards of ABC, SEN, the MSO, the State Library, etc etc over the last two years.

 

[mickelboy182]

You all really think our club with likes of Paddy Kinnersley on the board are not going to have done a full investigation before arriving at the decision to step this guy down.

Uh, yes? We did just have a President and board member who came from a scandal-ridden tenure as CEO for a big four consulting firm (and subsequently departed the club under further scandal)... Not exactly a pristine track record.

 

[jj1978]

As I've said earlier, this is a pretty simple case for mine.

When the boy said he was donating funds to wounded Israeli soldiers, and CC simply walked out, I very much doubt any action would have been taken by the club...perhaps a stern talking to at worst.

But once he added "I’m not doing this for f**ing Zios", that's a whole different story. At that point, he's not just expressing a personal view - he’s bringing the club he represents into disrepute. And that’s fair game for disciplinary action IMO.

Bingo. Also as a public facing “figure’ of the club he’d most likely realise his engagement will be amongst members, supporters, AFL community, hospitals, schools, functions and the like. His behaviour was unprofessional, impacted members, supporters, benefactors, and embarrassed the club he represented.

The club has kept quiet because they don’t want what’s happening here to occur, causing divide.

 

[ferrisb]

If they asked him to put some money in the hat, that's outside of the scope of the job description. If the club gave a gift to the kid, then asking a rep of the club to contribute personally while doing the work assigned by the club is a bit rude.

If someone at the Jewish religious event has decided to ask people for donations, for whatever the reason, it is still on the individual they are asking to donate or not, a reasonable way of showing you don't agree is to not donate.

I highly doubt a hat was being passed around on the night; either literally or figuratively.

IMO, one of two things would have happened:

1) The invite said 'Kid is accepting donations in lieu of presents' (invite may or may not have specified where to donate).

2) The invite said nothing. Kid gets a bunch of money from family & friends he announces at the barmitzvah the he and his family have decided to donate money to X.

Disclaimer: This is just a guess, but I have been to jewish parties where either 1 or 2 have happened.

 

[Mondyboy]

I do not know the mind of Captain Carlton, but I would wager that "****ing Zios" had precisely zero to do with the KKK or Protocols of Zion, and was just a shortening of 'zionists'

His intent is irrelevant. It's an anti-semitic slur. Has been for a century. The fact it's not as well known as many others doesn't change that.

 

[Bletch]

That's the big gap in all this - was he overheard saying this to a band member (as Ferris suggests) or to his club handler, or was it the theatrical outburst implied by the tabloid coverage?

And did he say this at all? Thing is, we don't know his side of the story. The quote in the press is unlikely to have come from the employee, or Carlton. So who has fed this to the press? And did they have an agenda in doing so?

The key word is "allegedly". Unless he lodges a law suit against his employer (or the party organisers), we'll likely never find out anything more. And until (if) that happens, this conversation about the quote used is largely pointless.

What I think we can discuss is: (1) IF he did use those words, and they were not delivered with an expectation of privacy then is his dismissal fair (imo, yes). If he disputes that, it probably ends up in court, and what happens then? (2) Just what is Carlton's role in all of this? What did the club know? Was the club paid for his appearance? Did the club brief him on sharing political opinions? Was his sacking in response to lobby group pressure? Whose decision was it? What did they base it on? etc.

 

[BlueNath]

And did he say this at all? Thing is, we don't know his side of the story. The quote in the press is unlikely to have come from the employee, or Carlton. So who has fed this to the press? And did they have an agenda in doing so?

The key word is "allegedly". Unless he lodges a law suit against his employer (or the party organisers), we'll likely never find out anything more. And until (if) that happens, this conversation about the quote used is largely pointless.

What I think we can discuss is: (1) IF he did use those words, and they were not delivered with an expectation of privacy then is his dismissal fair (imo, yes). If he disputes that, it probably ends up in court, and what happens then? (2) Just what is Carlton's role in all of this? What did the club know? Was the club paid for his appearance? Did the club brief him on sharing political opinions? Was his sacking in response to lobby group pressure? Whose decision was it? What did they base it on? etc.

Which I think all comes back to the point ODN was making the other day... where is the representation by the club to clarify for its members and fans on what happened (broadly - no specific details needed) and what grounds the dismissal was deemed necessary. It then stops all this innuendo. It really is disappointing some official statement has not been made. Does it fill you with confidence that the club is strong in its convictions with how things have been handled by being silent?

 

[ctwenty1]

Which I think all comes back to the point ODN was making the other day... where is the representation by the club to clarify for its members and fans on what happened (broadly - no specific details needed) and what grounds the dismissal was deemed necessary. It then stops all this innuendo. It really is disappointing some official statement has not been made. Does it fill you with confidence that the club is strong in its convictions with how things have been handled by being silent?

havent they said he was sacked for not living the values, or whatever terminology they used.

Not sure being overly descriptive in a media release is teneable - reckon that happens if an unfair dismissal claim is brought

 

[ferrisb]

Is it peak Carlton to get paid to show up once on a weekend and walk out without getting the job done?

 

[El Topo]

Is it peak Carlton to get paid to show up once on a weekend and walk out without getting the job done?

Could have pleased all sides by backflipping out of the venue...

 

[ferrisb]

I think you can support CC's political conviction but also support the decision to fire him. Pretty much everyone seems to be one or the other.

No matter how much he disagreed with giving money to wounded Israeli soldiers, I don't think you can swear something offensive* and walk out on a gig and not face repercussions. I am not a lawyer and I haven't seen his employment contract, but I'd guess there'd be clauses specifically covering reputational impact.

As much as you might sympathise with CC's views, this has nothing to do with Gaza and genocide.

If he'd been told that the kid was Chinese, but was donating money to the Communist Party and CC had said 'I'm not working for ****ing commies', I think he'd be fired.

If he'd been told he was attending a political event and then found out money was going to One Nation and said 'I'm not working for these ****ing xenophobes', I think he'd be fired.

Or Russia/Putin and he'd said 'I'm not working for these ****ing Ruskis', I think he'd be fired. Or 1,000 other examples of personal views you think are justified/just.

I am not sure he has a case for unfair dismissal unless he can prove the club did not follow proper process; investigate the incident, give him a right to respond etc etc. Situation would be even weaker if he was casual/gig employee.

 

[HarryFlashman]

So if u step back just a little & take a broader view with some very likely possibilities I think it’s pretty clear the club ****ed this up.

To get CC to appear - someone with some influence has asked.

It’s stated fact that some senior (ie influential/powerful brokers) member were in attendance.

So club power brokers asks a favor & CC shows up.
No issue with this, it’s what tipping into the club gets u - it’s just how it is.

Given who’s asking, CC is showing up, “No” is not really an acceptable answer to show up for a bar mitzvah.

He rocks up & money is being raised & donated to wounded IDF solidiers - now just stop for a second & think about the overall mood/tone ideologies of those there, if that’s where they have decided to send funds.
Pretty safe to say their thoughts & allegiances are quite vocal & their stance is rather unshakeable.
Not a lot of room for a nuanced conversation & any thoughts contrary to there own would be met with vehement opposition.

So look at the room right now & the position CC is in - pretty ****ing uncomfortable if he, like a lot of people do not share the same thoughts.

He has obviously said something - not the smartest thing to do given he’s representing the club & who requested him.
Straight up he should have just walked out - if he was to do that thou, does anyone believe that would not have been seen as a massive insult?

He makes a remark, it insults the hosts & just as importantly cause a loss of face to those who organised him coming.

So u now have a powerbroker who’s been insulted, lost face in front of friends/peers/family & had his ideology that is deeply ingrained (hence the fund raising) challenged - CC was ****ed the moment he stepped in there if he didn’t hold the same beliefs.

That said, he 100% should have been fully informed before going in - that’s on the club!

Ask him & tell him about the appearance in a manner that doesn’t offend anyone & give him an easy out - the fact he’s fired off some words knowing full well he’s ****ed the moment he does, would lead me to believe that he didn’t have a full understanding of what he was walking into.

Pissed off & insulted powerbroker then very predictably goes “your fired” & the club makes that happen.

Your delusional if you don’t think that club powerbrokers don’t have some serious sway/pull at the club.

Take the “cause/issues” out of the equation for a second & it’s pretty clear the club did not protect its employee or act in his best interest.

Add in the “cause/issue” it’s understandable (IMO) that he had some words to say & good on him for standing up for his beliefs in the face of that opposition - pretty sure he read the room & realised he was ****ed anyway

 

[Gingerbread man]

Please delete this whole thread

 

[mickelboy182]

I think you can support CC's political conviction but also support the decision to fire him. Pretty much everyone seems to be one or the other.

No matter how much he disagreed with giving money to wounded Israeli soldiers, I don't think you can swear something offensive* and walk out on a gig and not face repercussions. I am not a lawyer and I haven't seen his employment contract, but I'd guess there'd be clauses specifically covering reputational impact.

As much as you might sympathise with CC's views, this has nothing to do with Gaza and genocide.

If he'd been told that the kid was Chinese, but was donating money to the Communist Party and CC had said 'I'm not working for f*ing commies', I think he'd be fired.

If he'd been told he was attending a political event and then found out money was going to One Nation and said 'I'm not working for these f*ing xenophobes', I think he'd be fired.

Or Russia/Putin and he'd said 'I'm not working for these f*cking Ruskis', I think he'd be fired. Or 1,000 other examples of personal views you think are justified/just.

I am not sure he has a case for unfair dismissal unless he can prove the club did not follow proper process; investigate the incident, give him a right to respond etc etc. Situation would be even weaker if he was casual/gig employee.

Again I think the context of how it was said is far more important - and that applies to all of your analogous examples. Muttering to an adult on his way out the door cf. loudly proclaiming it to a large audience is what it turns on, IMO.

 

[Sector 7G]

Again I think the context of how it was said is far more important - and that applies to all of your analogous examples. Muttering to an adult on his way out the door cf. loudly proclaiming it to a large audience is what it turns on, IMO.

What hasn’t been reported is what was said to him prior to the alleged outburst. Who knows ,maybe it was a justified response.

 

[El Topo]

Or Russia/Putin and he'd said 'I'm not working for these f*cking Ruskis', I think he'd be fired. Or 1,000 other examples of personal views you think are justified/just.

I am not sure he has a case for unfair dismissal unless he can prove the club did not follow proper process; investigate the incident, give him a right to respond etc etc. Situation would be even weaker if he was casual/gig employee.

Not many would be defending the club if CC stormed out of an event raising funds for Russian invasion troops - the question would be, why is the club mascot raising funds for another state's illegal military occupation?

 

[mickelboy182]

What hasn’t been reported is what was said to him prior to the alleged outburst. Who knows ,maybe it was a justified response.

Agreed, I honestly think the thread has run it's course to this point without new information. We've just got the same repeated strawmen that are fighting arguments that aren't being made.

 

[ctwenty1]

Again I think the context of how it was said is far more important - and that applies to all of your analogous examples. Muttering to an adult on his way out the door cf. loudly proclaiming it to a large audience is what it turns on, IMO.

To a degree

Making a racist/prejudiced/sexist etc comment to one individuial, and only one individual hears, is enough to get someone fired if it is then reported and found to be inconsistent with the values

The "how" he was at the event in the CC outfit is the more interesting one and may cause issues for the club

 

[HarryFlashman]

Pretty safe to say the next CC won’t be doing to many “party appearances”.

Probably a good idea to get a few suits made up & lend them out in the future

 

[mickelboy182]

To a degree

Making a racist/prejudiced/sexist etc comment to one individuial, and only one individual hears, is enough to get someone fired if it is then reported and found to be inconsistent with the values

Sure but that is operating outside of the published information.

 

[Bletch]

Pretty safe to say the next CC won’t be doing to many “party appearances”.

Probably a good idea to get a few suits made up & lend them out in the future

Yeah, I think there will be a lot more scrutiny of any such requests in the future.

 

[HarryFlashman]

What hasn’t been reported is what was said to him prior to the alleged outburst. Who knows ,maybe it was a justified response.

Pretty safe to say that in a room full of Carlton supporters you are going to here some rather unsavory things about *

Given this is a whole lot more serious than club alliances you would imagine the conversation in the room wasn’t just about “where the best place is to get your yarmulke dry cleaned”