Society/Culture Notional Take Back Australia Day

[Episode IV]

My question is take back Australia from what exactly?

The bullshit it's being (been) drowned in, for a start.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The bullshit it's being (been) drowned in, for a start.

Care to elaborate?

 

[WeightOfTheWorld]

Care to elaborate?

I think these marches represent concerns from the community that economic immigration is too high. Numerous polls confirm the same - that being that the majority of the community believe that economic immigration is at unsustainable levels.

These people feel like their voices are not being listened to. I personally, would have thought that was a perfectly reasonable and common sense approach to things.

It is worth noting, that the poorest people in the community are the ones that feel the heat when population growth is at unsustainable levels.

Do you not agree with this point? If the majority of the community want lower economic immigration? Should the elected government of the day not acquiesce to same?

 

[the_interloper]

The bullshit it's being (been) drowned in, for a start.

Some specifics would be good.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think these marches represent concerns from the community that economic immigration is too high. Numerous polls confirm the same - that being that the majority of the community believe that economic immigration is at unsustainable levels.

These people feel like their voices are not being listened to. I personally, would have thought that was a perfectly reasonable and common sense approach to things.

It is worth noting, that the poorest people in the community are the ones that feel the heat when population growth is at unsustainable levels.

Do you not agree with this point? If the majority of the community want lower economic immigration? Should the elected government of the day not acquiesce to same?

I don't disagree with this sentiment.

That's not what I'm asking, where and when was Australia taken in the first place and from where and who are we supposed to take it back from?

Last time I looked, Australia has not been taken.

Can you point to where and when Australia was taken?

 

[WeightOfTheWorld]

I don't disagree with this sentiment.

That's not what I'm asking, where and when was Australia taken in the first place and from where and who are we supposed to take it back from?

Last time I looked, Australia has not been taken.

Can you point to where and when Australia was taken?

Yeah. You are engaging in word games/semantics/gotcha tactics.

Let me break it down

Australia has no obligation to economic migrants looking to make a better life. That is the bottom line. No obligation whatsoever.

Nil. Zilch. Get the picture?

We should have the option, as a community, to decide on the level of economic immigration that the majority feel is appropiate.

The majority of the community want immigration reduced. We are ignored and mocked. Derided as racists. As scum.

I want immigrarion reduced. I dont care whether they are English, Indian, or from NZ. We have no obligation to them.

We should have the option to welcome them if we feel it is in our interests to do so.

Perhaps these people were taking back their voices?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yeah. You are engaging in word games/semantics/gotcha tactics.

Let me break it down

Australia has no obligation to economic migrants looking to make a better life. That is the bottom line. No obligation whatsoever.

Nil. Zilch. Get the picture?

We should have the option, as a community, to decide on the level of economic immigration that the majority feel is appropiate.

The majority of the community want immigration reduced. We are ignored and mocked. Derided as racists. As scum.

I want immigrarion reduced. I dont care whether they are English, Indian, or from NZ. We have no obligation to them.

We should have the option to welcome them if we feel it is in our interests to do so.

Perhaps these people were taking back their voices?

Maybe if there was better INFRASTRUCTURE to cater to a growing population the strains on what exists now wouldn't be as noticable. Ever think of that?

Maybe if the STATE owned critical resources to spread as the common wealth instead of PRIVATE INTERESTS FOR PRIVATE PROFIT a growing population could benefit without the cracks showing. Ever think of that?

You might be getting angry at the situation but I'd suggest that anger be better directed. Just thinking 'We'll stop anyone else from coming in at it will all be magically better!' is very simplistic.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Let me break it down

Australia has no obligation to economic migrants looking to make a better life. That is the bottom line. No obligation whatsoever.

Nil. Zilch. Get the picture?

We should have the option, as a community, to decide on the level of economic immigration that the majority feel is appropiate.

I already know this and not disputing it.

The majority of the community want immigration reduced. We are ignored and mocked. Derided as racists. As scum.

Those who do this are not worth the time of day, any rational minded person would not view a reduction in immigration as racist or discriminatory.

They'd look into the nuance and ask why you want immigration reduced and then let you give your reasons and THEN judge you, not dismiss you immediately before you can say 'reduce'

We should have the option to welcome them if we feel it is in our interests to do so.

We as a country do have that option

Perhaps these people were taking back their voices?

Taking their voice back from what / who? When was their voice taken from them?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

The majority of the community want immigration reduced. We are ignored and mocked.

A growing movement, no doubt.

Here's today's effort in Australia's largest city.

 

[WeightOfTheWorld]

A growing movement, no doubt.

Here's today's effort in Australia's largest city.

View attachment 2488064

You dont have any concerns about the current NOM numbers?

 

[Episode IV]

Maybe if there was better INFRASTRUCTURE to cater to a growing population the strains on what exists now wouldn't be as noticable. Ever think of that?

Maybe if the STATE owned critical resources to spread as the common wealth instead of PRIVATE INTERESTS FOR PRIVATE PROFIT a growing population could benefit without the cracks showing. Ever think of that?

You might be getting angry at the situation but I'd suggest that anger be better directed. Just thinking 'We'll stop anyone else from coming in at it will all be magically better!' is very simplistic.

You would probably benefit from looking into who actually does own (or is responsible for) "infrastructure" in Australia. Power networks, hospitals, water, roads.

Once again, there are very few people suggesting we "stop anyone else from coming in at all". The argument is against unsustainable exponential growth. You're very aptly demonstrating what WeightOfTheWorld is saying - that many arguments are not being made in good faith.

Having said that, of course, there is the fact that halting all immigration immediately would greatly decrease pressure on resources. I really cannot understand why anyone would argue it wouldn't. Obviously it's not something which is likely to happen in the near future, nor is it something anyone is really arguing should happen - nonetheless, if the population isn't increasing, then... well. Bit of a no-brainer there, isn't it.

I tend to think that anyone who thinks that the problems we're having could be solved by simply improving forward planning (how that actually looks in the face of the majority of migration to Australia being "unplanned" arrivals might be interesting - perhaps we should take the Chinese view and build whole ghost cities in anticipation?) is completely missing the point being made - that "large numbers of people" are not something many Australians want to see.

There's this little thing I'll refer to as "quality of life" which is steadily being eroded in Australia as the direct result of a fast growing population. That "strain on what exists now" is not a purely economic consideration.

I'm looking at the housing being built all along the coast North of Perth right now. Alkimos, Butler, all the way up to Yanchep and Two rocks... ugly, small, grey and beige houses (one of which I'm currently living in) of similar design and poor build quality and which are so closely packed together I can quite clearly hear my neighbors having showers next door - among other things. The other day I thought my car had been stolen because I walked up the next street instead of the one I lived in - looked exactly the same.
Look at the aerial photos. Depressing, ugly, and cheap suburban housing. No trees, of course. There's not enough room between the houses or in the yards to grow them.

This is what our future looks like.
This debate has many more talking points than simply exhorting Australians accept the decline in living standards and plan better for even more arrivals.

 

[Episode IV]

Those who do this are not worth the time of day, any rational minded person would not view a reduction in immigration as racist or discriminatory.

They'd look into the nuance and ask why you want immigration reduced and then let you give your reasons and THEN judge you, not dismiss you immediately before you can say 'reduce'

Sounds great.
Is that what is actually happening?

 

[Episode IV]

Some specifics would be good.

You have an entire forum here full of threads discussing the specifics.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Sounds great.
Is that what is actually happening?

For the most part yeah, if you’re out in the real world and you mention we need to reduce immigration coz infrastructure etc. Not many are gonna immediately call you racist.

 

[WeightOfTheWorld]

You would probably benefit from looking into who actually does own (or is responsible for) "infrastructure" in Australia. Power networks, hospitals, water, roads.

Once again, there are very few people suggesting we "stop anyone else from coming in at all". The argument is against unsustainable exponential growth. You're very aptly demonstrating what WeightOfTheWorld is saying - that many arguments are not being made in good faith.

Having said that, of course, there is the fact that halting all immigration immediately would greatly decrease pressure on resources. I really cannot understand why anyone would argue it wouldn't. Obviously it's not something which is likely to happen in the near future, nor is it something anyone is really arguing should happen - nonetheless, if the population isn't increasing, then... well. Bit of a no-brainer there, isn't it.

I tend to think that anyone who thinks that the problems we're having could be solved by simply improving forward planning (how that actually looks in the face of the majority of migration to Australia being "unplanned" arrivals might be interesting - perhaps we should take the Chinese view and build whole ghost cities in anticipation?) is completely missing the point being made - that "large numbers of people" are not something many Australians want to see.

There's this little thing I'll refer to as "quality of life" which is steadily being eroded in Australia as the direct result of a fast growing population. That "strain on what exists now" is not a purely economic consideration.

I'm looking at the housing being built all along the coast North of Perth right now. Alkimos, Butler, all the way up to Yanchep and Two rocks... ugly, small, grey and beige houses (one of which I'm currently living in) of similar design and poor build quality and which are so closely packed together I can quite clearly hear my neighbors having showers next door - among other things. The other day I thought my car had been stolen because I walked up the next street instead of the one I lived in - looked exactly the same.
Look at the aerial photos. Depressing, ugly, and cheap suburban housing. No trees, of course. There's not enough room between the houses or in the yards to grow them.

This is what our future looks like.
This debate has many more talking points than simply exhorting Australians accept the decline in living standards and plan better for even more arrivals.

100%.

Acutally shed a tear reading this post. It is very well written. Thank you for that.

 

[CM86]

100%.

Acutally shed a tear reading this post. It is very well written. Thank you for that.

You would probably benefit from looking into who actually does own (or is responsible for) "infrastructure" in Australia. Power networks, hospitals, water, roads.

Once again, there are very few people suggesting we "stop anyone else from coming in at all". The argument is against unsustainable exponential growth. You're very aptly demonstrating what WeightOfTheWorld is saying - that many arguments are not being made in good faith.

Having said that, of course, there is the fact that halting all immigration immediately would greatly decrease pressure on resources. I really cannot understand why anyone would argue it wouldn't. Obviously it's not something which is likely to happen in the near future, nor is it something anyone is really arguing should happen - nonetheless, if the population isn't increasing, then... well. Bit of a no-brainer there, isn't it.

I tend to think that anyone who thinks that the problems we're having could be solved by simply improving forward planning (how that actually looks in the face of the majority of migration to Australia being "unplanned" arrivals might be interesting - perhaps we should take the Chinese view and build whole ghost cities in anticipation?) is completely missing the point being made - that "large numbers of people" are not something many Australians want to see.

There's this little thing I'll refer to as "quality of life" which is steadily being eroded in Australia as the direct result of a fast growing population. That "strain on what exists now" is not a purely economic consideration.

I'm looking at the housing being built all along the coast North of Perth right now. Alkimos, Butler, all the way up to Yanchep and Two rocks... ugly, small, grey and beige houses (one of which I'm currently living in) of similar design and poor build quality and which are so closely packed together I can quite clearly hear my neighbors having showers next door - among other things. The other day I thought my car had been stolen because I walked up the next street instead of the one I lived in - looked exactly the same.
Look at the aerial photos. Depressing, ugly, and cheap suburban housing. No trees, of course. There's not enough room between the houses or in the yards to grow them.

This is what our future looks like.
This debate has many more talking points than simply exhorting Australians accept the decline in living standards and plan better for even more arrivals.

I just read this entire thing out at a hospital ER, and when I was done, everyone stood up and clapped.

The only awkward question they asked me, was how 'neighbours' was spelt. And I had to admit that it was the American spelling...

 

[WeightOfTheWorld]

I just read this entire thing out at a hospital ER, and when I was done, everyone stood up and clapped.

The only awkward question they asked me, was how 'neighbours' was spelt. And I had to admit that it was the American spelling...

What are you there for?

 

[schneebly111]

I just read this entire thing out at a hospital ER, and when I was done, everyone stood up and clapped.

The only awkward question they asked me, was how 'neighbours' was spelt. And I had to admit that it was the American spelling...

They’re called Emergency Departments in Australia, not Emergency rooms.

And you didn’t just get up in the middle of an ED and read out a politically charged post on an anonymous internet forum to staff and patients in various states of distress and get them to give you a standing ovation.

Pull the other one mate…….

 

[schneebly111]

What are you there for?

Paranoid delusions if they think they got a standing ovation in an ED for reading that out……

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I'm looking at the housing being built all along the coast North of Perth right now. Alkimos, Butler, all the way up to Yanchep and Two rocks... ugly, small, grey and beige houses (one of which I'm currently living in) of similar design and poor build quality and which are so closely packed together I can quite clearly hear my neighbors having showers next door - among other things. The other day I thought my car had been stolen because I walked up the next street instead of the one I lived in - looked exactly the same.
Look at the aerial photos. Depressing, ugly, and cheap suburban housing. No trees, of course. There's not enough room between the houses or in the yards to grow them.

This is what our future looks like.
This debate has many more talking points than simply exhorting Australians accept the decline in living standards and plan better for even more arrivals.

Too right. I hear you on this. The Yanks would call them 'cookie cutter' suburbs. Poor build quality, for sure. But this is a question of regulation not being tight enough to FORCE better standards. Industry is always going to do the bare minimum... if they can get away with it.

Lack of green spaces. Poor aesthetics. Immigrants are really to blame for that?

There is so much we can do as a society to better ourselves and our situation without resorting to the politics of exclusion.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You would probably benefit from looking into who actually does own (or is responsible for) "infrastructure" in Australia. Power networks, hospitals, water, roads.

Once again, there are very few people suggesting we "stop anyone else from coming in at all". The argument is against unsustainable exponential growth. You're very aptly demonstrating what WeightOfTheWorld is saying - that many arguments are not being made in good faith.

Having said that, of course, there is the fact that halting all immigration immediately would greatly decrease pressure on resources. I really cannot understand why anyone would argue it wouldn't. Obviously it's not something which is likely to happen in the near future, nor is it something anyone is really arguing should happen - nonetheless, if the population isn't increasing, then... well. Bit of a no-brainer there, isn't it.

I tend to think that anyone who thinks that the problems we're having could be solved by simply improving forward planning (how that actually looks in the face of the majority of migration to Australia being "unplanned" arrivals might be interesting - perhaps we should take the Chinese view and build whole ghost cities in anticipation?) is completely missing the point being made - that "large numbers of people" are not something many Australians want to see.

There's this little thing I'll refer to as "quality of life" which is steadily being eroded in Australia as the direct result of a fast growing population. That "strain on what exists now" is not a purely economic consideration.

I'm looking at the housing being built all along the coast North of Perth right now. Alkimos, Butler, all the way up to Yanchep and Two rocks... ugly, small, grey and beige houses (one of which I'm currently living in) of similar design and poor build quality and which are so closely packed together I can quite clearly hear my neighbors having showers next door - among other things. The other day I thought my car had been stolen because I walked up the next street instead of the one I lived in - looked exactly the same.
Look at the aerial photos. Depressing, ugly, and cheap suburban housing. No trees, of course. There's not enough room between the houses or in the yards to grow them.

This is what our future looks like.
This debate has many more talking points than simply exhorting Australians accept the decline in living standards and plan better for even more arrivals.

This isn't the fault of immigration though, willing to bet govt. DO have the coffers to address the infrastructure problems and private enterprise charged with that infrastructure isn't being held to account for it as alluded to by Geelong_Sicko - hence the declining living standards.

Sure, all the talk is 'we can't handle the numbers!!' and on face value yeah it looks that way, yet govt. ALWAYS has funds if it comes to the crunch. ALWAYS, yes I know we're told differently but that's a Will Ferrell 'I don't believe you' meme moment.

A little off topic, I own a house in Merriwa, and the suburb doesn't fit your description. I've been to house opens in Butler, Clarkson, Merriwa, Midarie, Quinns Rocks etc. and your description is not the whole suburb / area. Yes, there are some streets with mirror copy housing on small blocks like your description, but certainly not the majority. But you've given the impression that this is the future, 'sheep housing' for want of a better term - it isn't.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Take Back Australia Day.

Sponsored by Gina Rinehart.

 

[Episode IV]

For the most part yeah, if you’re out in the real world and you mention we need to reduce immigration coz infrastructure etc. Not many are gonna immediately call you racist.

In my experience, there aren't many who are willing to talk about it at all, without knowing exactly what sort of company they were in first.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

In my experience, there aren't many who are willing to talk about it at all, without knowing exactly what sort of company they were in first.

It all depends on how you frame it, I guess. The infrastructure argument might alienate the racists and the racist argument is going to alienate everyone else.

Acknowledging that there IS a problem is a key first step. I acknowledge that there is a problem.

 

[Episode IV]

This isn't the fault of immigration though, willing to bet govt. DO have the coffers to address the infrastructure problems and private enterprise charged with that infrastructure isn't being held to account for it as alluded to by Geelong_Sicko - hence the declining living standards.


A little off topic, I own a house in Merriwa, and the suburb doesn't fit your description. I've been to house opens in Butler, Clarkson, Merriwa, Midarie, Quinns Rocks etc. and your description is not the whole suburb / area. Yes, there are some streets with mirror copy housing on small blocks like your description, but certainly not the majority. But you've given the impression that this is the future, 'sheep housing' for want of a better term - it isn't.

Mindarie, Quinns Rocks... Those are upmarket areas which have been around for decades. Merriwa has been around since the 1980's.
It's the new developments I'm talking about - where the changes are visible.

Average block sizes have been falling for a decades, accelerated in recent years, particularly in the Perth area... we used to live on a least 700m2 even in the heart of suburbia. Many homes would have a couple of fruit trees and a veggie garden out the back. Back when I were a lad, my parents bought a quarter acre on a shoestring one-income budget.
It is fast becoming the norm. I could talk a little more about the lifestyle changes as well, if you like.

I'll also comment on your use of the word "fault" up there.
Saying that there are things resulting from high immigrations numbers is less emotionally charged than saying it's the fault of immigration. This might sound like semantics, I know, but it is an aspect of this argument which has been noted previously.



As to the rest of it, providing infrastructure for new suburbs is difficult to plan for, though, yes. I've worked ten years in the utilities industry myself, nothing is ever simple. The idea that this sort of thing is a problem which can be solved simply by throwing money at it is definitely oversimplifying things.
IT doesn't actually matter if Australia can fund new infrastructure or not.

Neither is it a matter of the infrastructure itself - you need the people, too. I've had reason to be in and around hospitals quite a bit in recent months, and the variety of accents you hear in there is simply astounding. It's not just tradies to build houses we're desperate for. There are other things which suffer greatly when new additions are made to the system who have not been brought up within it - as I've mentioned before, the immigration numbers in Australia are largely the result of "unplanned" arrivals. For the most part, they aren't doctors, nurses, electricians... they're the people who need all those things to be provided for them, and which our current society can't provide for.

There is absolutely no sense in building a new hospital if you can't staff it.
And right now - that's exactly the position we're in. Those unplanned arrivals are not filling needs and requirements. The stress that our medical staff are under is not a secret. Our teachers are resigning in droves. We don't have enough police, and those we have are snapping under the pressure.
Australia needs to stop, and think. Breathe.



You've been asking whom it is we're supposed to be taking Australia back from. It's a good question, and not one easily answered.
I believe the answer lies in a couple of different places. One is something I've noted before, the idea of the "Left" and Corporate Australia becoming strange bedfellows.
I'm probably going to get back to this at some point.