Religion Bondi shooting - 16 confirmed dead at Jewish event

[faible]

Maybe those you deem islamophobic are just labelling the problem what it is.

Very unlikely that's the case, those I deem Islamophobic tend to be highly uneducated on the topic, and offer deeply simplistic solutions (e.g. deport Muslims, ban Islam etc..) that do nothing to address a broad and complex issue such as the rise of extremism in various forms.

In the past few years we've seen shootings by Christian extremists, a Sovereign Citizen, and now ISIS extremists. This simplistic solution ignores a fairly massive portion of the issue, simply to focus on one specific thing. Where it becomes very clear they just want to punch down on Muslims, not actually deal with anything.

If your first response is 'all Muslims are responsible for this' then you're probably just Islamophobic, not 'labelling the problem what it is'.

 

[Bloods86]

Imagine a thread full of 99% non jews defending the pm who jews have been warning for 2 years straight was abhorrently weak and dismissive of the rising threat.

Imagine a thread full of non jews, who’s biggest concern this week is what ice cream they tuck into after dinner, thinking they understand what jews are going through in this country/thinking they experts on anti semitism.

I am not jewish but its not difficult for me to have common sense and go, they were right on the gov’t. Dead right.

Its also not difficult for me to understand the radical islam problem which targets ALL OF US.

I know you all have 0 problems in life, but get your heads out of the sand ffs

You're assuming that Jewish Australians are a monolith and have the same views on what has caused a rise in anti-semitic acts, what should be done about it, and if the government is to be blamed for not doing things (which isn't necessarily true) that sections of the Jewish community want.

 

[faible]

No one has said to stay away from muslims or that they are all bad

A number of posters have lumped blame on the entire Muslim community.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

This might've been discussed earlier in the thread, but I've missed a huge number of posts so apologies if I'm covering old ground.

Beyond their purely evil pathology, I'm really curious as to the mindset of the two gunmen who committed this atrocity in their choice of where they actually carried out their attack. If their aim was to kill as many Jewish people as possible, why did they choose such an open area with so many escape points? Why not a setting such as a synagogue where the victims are essentially captive in an enclosed space, like the horrific Christchurch attack in a mosque a few years ago?

Also, the choice of Bondi Beach suggests that many of those who may be in the precinct and might ultimately become victims would've been visitors to the country, backpackers and the like, and most likely non-Jewish. Yes, the Hanukah celebrations were the initial target, but the footage also shows the gunmen shooting quite indiscriminately, and if they hadn't been taken down then it's doubtful they would've halted their murderous rampage until they'd exhausted their supply of ammunition.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Also what gets lost by the international community... is what happened in Bondi is what happens in Gaza EVERYDAY... and WORSE.

Could you imagine if a Bondi was happening EVERY SINGLE DAY to Westerners, on top of starvation, complete lack of security, health, education, freedom... Hope. That's right... you couldn't.

The assymetrical nature of how the USA and Israel have weaponised language by re-framing certain people as terrorists... and others as "moral armies" but simultaneously, killing children like their fish in a barrel on a regular basis and to normalise that, while what's happening in Gaza is not on the mechanical scale of what happened in Germany 80 years ago but given the amount of video footage there is, it's surprising that nearly 100k (most of them women and children) have been murdered since October 7th. And while that date was tragic, is no where near the scale of what's happened in Gaza and for Palestinians since.. and before.


If you watch the video I've linked below with Piers Morgan... you can see that the former IDF spokesperson, literally mocking Palestinians for taking their land, and then simultaneously saying that Palestinians post "fake me woe" videos about their plight. The most disgusting people on earth right now.

Another guest was saying that "Islamophobia isn't real".. But anti-Semitism of course is.

There's no doubt, that both are real. But it's the framing that's the most dishonest part. It's pure gaslighting because there's no other way to frame war crimes and atrocities committed by a genocidal state.

Using Piers Morgan Uncensored as a reliable source of wider opinion or behavior of a group, is about as dumb as blaming all Muslims for the actions of ISIS affiliated barbarics.

 

[Saint]

Maybe those you deem islamophobic are just labelling the problem what it is.

The Anti-semitism Envoy would make that kind of talk about Israel illegal. If you follow the logic, then pointing it out about Iran or Sudan would also be illegal.

The hypocrisy of complaining that Israel shouldn't be criticised because it's racist while also saying you want to be more racist against Muslims is the fundamental stupidity of the Envoy's report and the view of the supporters in the public.

"I just want to label Islam as the Problem that it is"
"How dare you label Israel the problem in the Israeli Genocide, that's hurtful to every Jew around the world"

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Apart from this attack, Islamophobia is just as much a problem, or 3x worse if you look at general Australian attitudes according to studies (and posters on this board).

I completely reject singling any single religion or belief system out by law. The special treatment requested by the Envoy made things worse, not better. WHy should Israel be protected from criticism if Iran isn't?

The reality is this board is in no way a reflection of the average Australian. It's a hyperbole of polarized opinion that really is a long way removed from reality.

 

[blue boy]

A number of posters have lumped blame on the entire Muslim community.

show me

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So is cutting off peoples heads

So, are we better than these people whose barbarism you despise, or are we just the same?

And don’t reply with “they started it”.

 

[blue boy]

The Anti-semitism Envoy would make that kind of talk about Israel illegal. If you follow the logic, then pointing it out about Iran or Sudan would also be illegal.

The hypocrisy of complaining that Israel shouldn't be criticised because it's racist while also saying you want to be more racist against Muslims is the fundamental stupidity of the Envoy's report and the view of the supporters in the public.

"I just want to label Islam as the Problem that it is"
"How dare you label Israel the problem in the Israeli Genocide, that's hurtful to every Jew around the world"

Its more that israel is held to a different standard to other nations. If israel committed a genocide, US and ADF forces committed a genocide of many more proportions in both afghan and iraq. Far, far more innocents killed by these forces in a far less densely populated area. 10x the genocide

 

[Saint]

This might've been discussed earlier in the thread, but I've missed a huge number of posts so apologies if I'm covering old ground.

Beyond their purely evil pathology, I'm really curious as to the mindset of the two gunmen who committed this atrocity in their choice of where they actually carried out their attack. If their aim was to kill as many Jewish people as possible, why did they choose such an open area with so many escape points? Why not a setting such as a synagogue where the victims are essentially captive in an enclosed space, like the horrific Christchurch attack in a mosque a few years ago?

Also, the choice of Bondi Beach suggests that many of those who may be in the precinct and might ultimately become victims would've been visitors to the country, backpackers and the like, and most likely non-Jewish. Yes, the Hanukah celebrations were the initial target, but the footage also shows the gunmen shooting quite indiscriminately, and if they hadn't been taken down then it's doubtful they would've halted their murderous rampage until they'd exhausted their supply of ammunition.

It needs to be pointed out that these terrorists are probably extremely stupid people. Martin Bryant's IQ was incredibly low and from the sounds of it, the son isn't much better. I'm guessing that apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Add to that religious indoctrination, unemployment, probably depression, you're looking at a deeply troubled person. Trying to make sense of their decision-making is a fools' errand.

Find out what influenced them to attack that event will be an important part of the investigation. If somebody posted something online about it, to a hateful group, I hope they find that person and lock them up too.

 

[faible]

This might've been discussed earlier in the thread, but I've missed a huge number of posts so apologies if I'm covering old ground.

Beyond their purely evil pathology, I'm really curious as to the mindset of the two gunmen who committed this atrocity in their choice of where they actually carried out their attack. If their aim was to kill as many Jewish people as possible, why did they choose such an open area with so many escape points? Why not a setting such as a synagogue where the victims are essentially captive in an enclosed space, like the horrific Christchurch attack in a mosque a few years ago?

Also, the choice of Bondi Beach suggests that many of those who may be in the precinct and might ultimately become victims would've been visitors to the country, backpackers and the like, and most likely non-Jewish. Yes, the Hanukah celebrations were the initial target, but the footage also shows the gunmen shooting quite indiscriminately, and if they hadn't been taken down then it's doubtful they would've halted their murderous rampage until they'd exhausted their supply of ammunition.

Whilst I'm doubtful it'll happen, one of the gunmen survived so there's a chance that the community might, maybe get some kind of explanation out of him.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Apart from this attack, Islamophobia is just as much a problem, or 3x worse if you look at general Australian attitudes according to studies (and posters on this board).

I completely reject singling any single religion or belief system out by law. The special treatment requested by the Envoy made things worse, not better. WHy should Israel be protected from criticism if Iran isn't?

I think there’s two things about Islamophobia though. If it’s about treating Muslim people in the community badly, abusing etc., that’s obviously a bad thing and should stop. But then there’s also a legitimate fear of extremist attacks, all over the world, that seem to mostly be perpetrated by Islamic extremists. That’s the “phobia” part.

 

[faible]

show me

Over 3000 posts in this thread, and you'll do the usual thing where you just handwave it all away as 'telling it how it is'. So no, I think my time can be used in more productive ways.

 

[Saint]

Its more that israel is held to a different standard to other nations. If israel committed a genocide, US and ADF forces committed a genocide of many more proportions in both afghan and iraq. Far, far more innocents killed by these forces in a far less densely populated area. 10x the genocide

The Australian and US Governments didn't forefully starve the population under occupation. That's the crime Israel is charged with. And I don't even think we should be discussing Israel here. Clearly these Jewish people are not to blame for the crimes of the Israeli Govt. And even if they're IDF fighters or supporters of the war, this attack has nothing to do with holding Israel to account.

 

[Saint]

I think there’s two things about Islamophobia though. If it’s about treating Muslim people in the community badly, abusing etc., that’s obviously a bad thing and should stop. But then there’s also a legitimate fear of extremist attacks, all over the world, that seem to mostly be perpetrated by Islamic extremists. That’s the “phobia” part.

And the treatment is inclusion of the people of the religion and exclusion of the extremist part.

 

[faible]

I think there’s two things about Islamophobia though. If it’s about treating Muslim people in the community badly, abusing etc., that’s obviously a bad thing and should stop. But then there’s also a legitimate fear of extremist attacks, all over the world, that seem to mostly be perpetrated by Islamic extremists. That’s the “phobia” part.

That's not what the 'phobia' in Islamophobia means. Kudos for trying to rewrite the dictionary so that being called Islamophobic (which you have been, repeatedly) is some kind of rational position though.

 

[faible]

Its more that israel is held to a different standard to other nations. If israel committed a genocide, US and ADF forces committed a genocide of many more proportions in both afghan and iraq. Far, far more innocents killed by these forces in a far less densely populated area. 10x the genocide

They really aren't. The US is very good at hiding their civilian slaughter and have an excellent PR machine in Hollywood, but social media also wasn't nearly as prevalent when they were doing it to have it live streamed to the world.

Israel have obviously and deliberately starved the entire population of Gaza, bombed their hospitals, schools, kindergartens and religious institutions. It is a genocide. It is war crimes. It is crimes against humanity.

Pretending it's some kind of antisemitic or anti-Israel thing to call out a sovereign nation and nominal ally for doing these things is an absurd position to take.

 

[Saint]

The reality is this board is in no way a reflection of the average Australian. It's a hyperbole of polarized opinion that really is a long way removed from reality.

Correct.

Some posters here believe themselves to be pro-Jewish and anti-Muslim and align every other poster into these categories.

I prefer to align them as anti-discrimination and pro-discrimination and consider myself anti-discrimination.

Some people think it's ok to be pro-discrimination prejudiced against a group if they decide there is good reason for it.

(I'm biased/prejudiced against all religious people, btw, it's just how my atheist brain reacts to things).

 

[blue boy]

The Australian and US Governments didn't forefully starve the population under occupation. That's the crime Israel is charged with. And I don't even think we should be discussing Israel here. Clearly these Jewish people are not to blame for the crimes of the Israeli Govt. And even if they're IDF fighters or supporters of the war, this attack has nothing to do with holding Israel to account.

Israel didnt starve anyone, not even close.

Mod Edit: this claim is misinformative.

The australian and us government and other western govs killed over 400,000 civilians. Australia had no direct threat at all, unlike what israel faced. Once again, if you view idf as bad, adf are far worse

 

[ferball]

What has the bloke actually done… name one achievement he has done off the back of his work.. he is the worst since Whitlam.. Morrison at least showed up at the bushfires knowing knowing he would cop a kicking . This guy just cares about his image.. nothing more. Snuck into Bondi in the early hours of Monday morning then disappeared when a crowd might be seen

**** off. He made them worse.

He got chased out of Cobargo by an angry mob because he turned up to a town where everyone had lost absolutely everything except what they were wearing (and had barely survived) for a photo opportunity wearing new clothes in new vehicles and strutted around expecting everyone to pat him on the back.

He gave them nothing and ****ed off when they got angry about it. If he was a decent leader he'd have at least brought them a change of clothes and some food.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

In Josh Frydenburgs speech he spoke about the increased security at major Jewish events and police presence at schools etc.

What has this county become that a minority religious group need protection from who? Is it only Islamic extremism’s or are they being targeted by others?

If what Josh has said is true and judging by Bondi’s event this country is in an utter mess.

I worked an event at a Jewish school in Sydney’s eastern suburbs at least thirty years ago and had my van comprehensively searched on entry.

So this is not new for the Jewish community sadly. It’s appalling.

But if Frydenberg is trying to put about the notion that this is new and unprecedented, he can take a hike.

 

[T2B_]

Israel didnt starve anyone, not even close.

wat

 

[Saint]

Israel didnt starve anyone, not even close.

The australian and us government and other western govs killed over 400,000 civilians. Australia had no direct threat at all, unlike what israel faced. Once again, if you view idf as bad, adf are far worse

There's a war crimes tribunal to test things like that, and another thread about the Israel genocide, this isn't the place for it. In fact, it just reinforces the possible link in the terrorists' mind between Israel's genocide and this attack.

Nobody should be justifying links between Israel's genocide and attacks on Australia's local Jewish population.

 

[dean33]

Andrew bolt and sky news calling on Albo to resign by not attending Matildas funeral, even though his reason was respecting the family's wishes as he wasnt invited. If he attended against their wishes he would have coped just as much backlash by those same commentators. Whatever the ALP do, the right will say it was wrong. Hopefully the Australian public can see through what they are currently doing.