November 24th – Howard Vs Rudd

[jenny61_99]

Is there a 3rd option.? For me it's who I despise less. Can't stand Rudd, Gillard and especially Garrett but could never vote for the corrupt, deceitful, morally bankrupt, elitist Howard government.

Bring back Keating.

Mickey Mouse looks like a good option this year.

 

[relapse]

link ??

Come on, the last federal election the Libs conducted a scare campagn for the polictically uneducated. They were bringing the interest rates up constantly throughout the campaign.

The question that I seriously wonder is for that such supposedly great economic managers wouldnt they have forseen to some degree that interest rates would be going to rise anyway ? That is the problem with dirty politics it can come back to haunt you and the interest rates have turned around and have hurt the government. This is why I question how great they supposedly are because surely they knew that the rates were on the way up ??? Didnt they ???

Things to consider are that the interest rates were massively higher under Howard when he was treasurer for the Fraser Liberal Government I think the rates were about 21% at their highest. The economy was a mess, Keating had put the country in recession to slow the economy down and had gotten the interest rates down at one stage to 7.5% before the Howard government was elected and the other important thing to also remember is that housing affordability is the worst ever in our countries history. So with that being the case the rates should be on the decrease, but the people on the higher end are still causing the economy to blow out and this is causes a danger of losing the middle class.

For years the king of political spin doctoring (Howard) has claimed that under Liberal when rates go up it is due to the international economy and consumer spending and not the libs economic management yet when they come down they claim credit for it yet with Labor when rates rise it is due to their economic mismanagement.

At the end of the day, your abilities to run an economy arent based on what party you are aligned to. If they didnt bring in the IR reforms and didnt run a scare campagn last election that has now blown up in their faces they most probably would have wont government again.

 

[FlyingCrow]

Either way, I dont think much will ctually change. Economic Rationalism and GLobal Politics/Economics are what runs Australia...We are a minnow on the world scale.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

Mickey Mouse looks like a good option this year.

So your voting for team Howard then?

 

[PsyCrow23]

Vote Liberal for Howard!

Kevin Rudd = Kevin Crud

 

[jenny61_99]

So your voting for team Howard then?

Ha ha! Seriously, I am not sure who to vote for. I am normally a "swinging" voter and whilst I think the coalition have far better policies overall for the greater good of the country, I think it is time for a change and there are some policies I absolutely loathe. On the other hand I cannot stand Crud and whatsherface and don't think they have a concrete policy. There's lots of airy-fairy pie in the sky stuff from them. On the OTHER hand I also cant stand Costello and he's the next PM should Floward win. So I'm torn. I reckon Mickey Mouse is my only option!

 

[beartoo]

Might be worth noting that when Keating had 17.5 % interest rates in Oz, that mad, socialist, red Maggie Thatcher had 19.8% in pommyland. Pollies shouldn't promise what they can't deliver and they do this all the time. Anyone remember core and non-core promises?
It is time for change. The mob in power are devoid of ideas and ethics.

 

[FlyingCrow]

Three ships was not a huge involvement. However that war was fought from afar. it was not an invasion like this one. Fought from Sea and Air. With US troops driving them out of Kuwait. Point is if called upon by US, Liberal or Labor we go.

Howard promising to keep rates down was a huge mistake. Govt doesnt control them at all. They are controlled by economy and RBA reflection on CPI and future forecasting. CPI figures for next quarter are out Late Oct. CPI is bound to have risen. When RBA meets in Nov be interesting to see if they go up.

I have voted Labor before. I am just not confident in the current Shadow Front Benches ability, and there links to unions. And anyway who wants a PM that looks like Mr Sheen????

We already have one that looks like a cane toad.

End of the day though the world will go on after November we wake up on November 25th.

We got more important issues to worry about, like how the Crows are gonna go next year and when will win our next flag...

 

[jackster83]

Workchoices, the war in Iraq, sale of Telstra, lack of broadband infrastructure (28k dial up ), the media ownership laws, failure until just before an election to accept climate change and let's not forget the recent APEC summit ($350 million spent but in the end it was the chaser team who got all the publicity ).

Whichever way you vote folks, just put a little thought into your vote: the ignorant were fooled last time around with the government's scare tactics about interest rates. Look where we are now: record house prices and interest rates at an 11 year high.

PS: if any party were for the deportation of all baby boomers, they'd have my vote!

 

[relapse]

Might be worth noting that when Keating had 17.5 % interest rates in Oz, that mad, socialist, red Maggie Thatcher had 19.8% in pommyland. Pollies shouldn't promise what they can't deliver and they do this all the time. Anyone remember core and non-core promises?
It is time for change. The mob in power are devoid of ideas and ethics.

Lets not forget the 21.5% rate when little johnny was treasurer to Fraser.

The economy has changed and due to inflation etc if the rates went above 10% the bottom would fall out of the economy IMO. Housing affordability is at its worst point ever therefore the rates cannot go too high it is just teetering now where it is about right to slow up the economy.

 

[Jars458]

He actually said they would be lower under a Coalition Govt than under a Labour Govt.

That's true. But the ad campaign was a fear campaign on the basis that interest rates would sky rocket under labor and that was never going to happen, as neither party controls significantly what happens to interest rates unless they are going to spend significantly more money. Given that Howard was spending shit loads himself that wasn't a factor.

Howard made a promise that could never be judged as their could only be one winner. Mean and tricky at the very least

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Come on, the last federal election the Libs conducted a scare campagn for the polictically uneducated. They were bringing the interest rates up constantly throughout the campaign.

The question that I seriously wonder is for that such supposedly great economic managers wouldnt they have forseen to some degree that interest rates would be going to rise anyway ? That is the problem with dirty politics it can come back to haunt you and the interest rates have turned around and have hurt the government. This is why I question how great they supposedly are because surely they knew that the rates were on the way up ??? Didnt they ???

Things to consider are that the interest rates were massively higher under Howard when he was treasurer for the Fraser Liberal Government I think the rates were about 21% at their highest. The economy was a mess, Keating had put the country in recession to slow the economy down and had gotten the interest rates down at one stage to 7.5% before the Howard government was elected and the other important thing to also remember is that housing affordability is the worst ever in our countries history. So with that being the case the rates should be on the decrease, but the people on the higher end are still causing the economy to blow out and this is causes a danger of losing the middle class.

For years the king of political spin doctoring (Howard) has claimed that under Liberal when rates go up it is due to the international economy and consumer spending and not the libs economic management yet when they come down they claim credit for it yet with Labor when rates rise it is due to their economic mismanagement.

At the end of the day, your abilities to run an economy arent based on what party you are aligned to. If they didnt bring in the IR reforms and didnt run a scare campagn last election that has now blown up in their faces they most probably would have wont government again.

Well said.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Great thread!

To be honest, i am not a massive fan of Rudd/Labor but i can no longer tolerate the actions of John Howard and the Liberal party in some areas, particularly those of human rights or anything really that distracts from the almighty dollar.

AWB corruption, David Hicks, Tampa, WorkChoices (yes it will benefit some people but overall it shifts the balance of power towards those with the most power and away from those with least...good for the economy, bad for the marginalised), Foreign Aid (of 25 richest countries our proportional giving in these times of supposed prosperity is ranked 22nd), War in Iraq (it seems that an Iraqi childs life isn't really worth a great deal), Climate Change (an economic, environmental and social issue) and now the latest in a long history of racism...

The huge backflip re Indigenous recognition (i wont call it rights cos this constitutional preamble is nothing but nice platitudes). Does Howard truly believe that the electorate will fall for this. The interventions in indigenous communities are a mixed bag (some good, some bad) but seriously this PM has exacerbated the division between white and black Australia for so long that i am convinced this latest ploy is nothing but clever campaigning.

Secondly, Kevin Andrews is a disgrace as Immigration Minister and makes Pauline Hanson look tame. What does the average Australian now feel when they see a Sudanese person walking down the street? 'Crap, here comes a dangerous gang member up to no good simply freeloading on society'. Disgusting propaganda. I am sure if we were r*ped, tortured and lost half our family and were in a foreign land whose language we struggled with, we would have a few adjustment issues and maybe find comfort in hanging around similar people.


Enough of the rant on a footy forum! (btw i am white middle class so no particular minority bandwagon to naturally align to...just fed up with heartless gov unfortunately)

It seems that Economy is King, and to hell with anyone that stands in the way. YES, the economy is a very important factor BUT strong economic growth does not equate to strong society/communities. The 'trickle down effect' is a fallacy for the most part. In fact, the means employed to reach that end is often detrimental to those most vulnerable. We need a better balance of social and economic concerns.

I guess in the end it's a matter of underlying philosophy on how we would like our country to progress, though pessimistically i feel most vote for who benefits them the most without a lot of regard for the bigger picture.

Anyways, great hearing all the viewpoints!

 

[NikkiNoo]

I'm with you LeftFist#8 but unfortunately most people will vote with their hip pockets and not what is best for the country or the world.

The Human rights and immigration issues are fairly important to me and the incumbent government has one of the worst records in the world.

My dad works at a school that has a lot of these kids from Africa and the stories and backgrounds they have come from are quite shocking. We should welcome and help them not vilify them.

Plus I work at a University that is affected by the Federal Government cutting back on services to students and now they have this horrible thing called the Research Quality Framework that is inheriently flawed and will result in a huge decrease in money to any University that is not a part of the "Group of 8"

 

[jenny61_99]

Lets not forget the 21.5% rate when little johnny was treasurer to Fraser.

The economy has changed and due to inflation etc if the rates went above 10% the bottom would fall out of the economy IMO. Housing affordability is at its worst point ever therefore the rates cannot go too high it is just teetering now where it is about right to slow up the economy.

Which they inherited from a mad spending Whitlam (ie. a dangerous blowout and massive deficit). Be careful who you blame for what because it seems they are all somehow inextricably involved in everything!

 

[slappy]

Come on, the last federal election the Libs conducted a scare campagn for the polictically uneducated.

gotta love this. did you say the same thing about the fightback scare campaign in 93, the gst and now workchoices or does labor just run free education programs for the public? tell me whats the diff?

sale of Telstra, lack of broadband infrastructure

thats a good point. its was such a stupid decision to sell it off and the geography of the country tells you the reason why. you simply dont make money servicing small and remote areas and now telstra has massively conflicting interests ... not surprisingly the reason it is so stuffed.



labor have always been the party that supposedly stuck up for low to middle income earners, at least thats the perception. so for those voting labor, how do you rationalise the following:

1. the alp have always been fundamentally opposed to the gst since it was introduced and i clearly remember them saying that it was going to destroy the lives of low income earners.

if that is indeed true then surely one of their highest priorities should be to roll it back. but when quizzed on it they said "its too difficult to rollback" which is ofcourse total bullshit.

in reality the gst is a huge money spinner and is here for good, you just dont kill the golden goose if you are expecting to win power. so what right does that give 'little' kevin rudd to call howard cynical?

this is pure hypocrisy, end of.



2. secondly if they truly represent low income earners then why do they never contemplate lifting the tax free threshold? its the perfect policy to target low income earners, its a vote winner, so where is it?

dont tell me the health of the economy is too important.

 

[Jars458]

if that is indeed true then surely one of their highest priorities should be to roll it back. but when quizzed on it they said "its too difficult to rollback" which is ofcourse total bullshit.
.

Do you honestly believe it would be practical to roll back the GST?

And do what? Put back wholesale sales tax and various indirect state taxes?

Not to mention all the moeny spent by buisness on compliance with the new taxation regime.

It is impossible to rollback GST without stuffing up the whole economy.

 

[slappy]

Do you honestly believe it would be practical to roll back the GST?

And do what? Put back wholesale sales tax and various indirect state taxes?

Not to mention all the moeny spent by buisness on compliance with the new taxation regime.

It is impossible to rollback GST without stuffing up the whole economy.

rolling it back WAS their policy so the alp obviously thought it could be done, did you support them back then???

 

[Markthirtytwo]

Which they inherited from a mad spending Whitlam (ie. a dangerous blowout and massive deficit). Be careful who you blame for what because it seems they are all somehow inextricably involved in everything!

That is so not true. He wasn't allowed to, the Liberal dominated Senate blocked supply and hence a Liberal plot to hatch another term or three in office.

 

[Jars458]

rolling it back WAS their policy so the alp obviously thought it could be done, did you support them back then???

I have never voted for Howard put it that way.

But you didn't answer my question, for obvious reasons.

 

[slappy]

But you didn't answer my question, for obvious reasons.

i didnt answer that part of your question because i am not an economist BUT ...

the fact remains that one of the two major parties did want to roll it back so therefore it is logical to assume that the advice they had was that it could be done. fast forward a few years and all of a sudden they say it is impossible, so what happened?

that is why i say it is bullshit that they cant roll it back now, not because i have some alternative plan ... but because labor implied it could be done.

 

[kimirocks]

Can't vote in this one. I forgot to get enrolled as an overseas voter, so providing I can't find some way around this, no voting for me. I am 21, and still havent voted in an election, funny thing is I'm not trying to get out of it, they just want to find all possible ways of preventing me from voting. What will they invent next?

Anyway, Labor should win in a landslide (well win all the marginals and safe seats), providing Rudd doesn't **** himself over real bad.

 

[KUNG FU]

That is so not true. He wasn't allowed to, the Liberal dominated Senate blocked supply and hence a Liberal plot to hatch another term or three in office.

This is correct. Fraser & Howard's economic mismanagement was appalling. The reforms under Keating as Treasurer were crucial to the current economic success we are now enjoying by opening up the economy through deregulation and removing tariffs. Costello has been an excellent Treasurer, albeit benefitting from stable international conditions, but as PM Howard is just plain pathetic. He's a populist, pork-barrelling idiot. Far from the excellent economic manager he is perceived to be.

I'm doing my PhD on the Howard government and its approach to Commonwealth-state relations. The amount of money that has been wasted by Howard and his centralist policies is just sickening. Mersey is just the tip of the iceberg of absolute governmental incompetence.

I do have concerns over what a Rudd government will look like, but there are just way too many issues for me to justify keeping Howard in power, particularly with the Coalition controlling the Senate.

Rudd will win by six seats. Howard will lose Bennelong.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Rudd 1st pick in the draft, Lance Howard Whitnall delisted, not even wanted in SANFL, WAFL or any amateur club. Sold as dog food

 

[KUNG FU]

Also, on a personal level, the fact that I can't find anywhere to rent and have to pay 25% more HECS fees than my predecessors makes the choice easy.