November 24th – Howard Vs Rudd

[KUNG FU]

I think that the ill-feeling towards unions has been miscalculated by Howard. Although less people are now in unions that doesn't mean that a significant, if not a majority of people are sympathetic towards or even grateful for them. The increasingly amorphous nature of the workplace has meant people are spending less time at one place of work and therefore feel less inclined to join a union. That does not necessarily equate for a dislike for unions.

Having said that, I'm of the view unions are a necessary evil, as is big business and government. The important thing is that there is a reasonable balance and counteraction between all these competing organizations.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Why are people suddenly afraid of unions? Unions are a good thing people! They look after your rights at work, they fought long and hard to get the rights that you probably used to enjoy before work "choices" came along. Maybe turbo182 was right about 80% being too stupid to vote, the scare tactics really get to people, I mean the Government could keep repeating "the pears are invading us" for long enough and some people would vote Liberal because they were going to save us from the pears.
Anyone else notice its really only in the last 6 months to a year that this anti-union feeling has come around, its all from the Governments propaganda. Ridiculous.

You are spot on

 

[relapse]

Why are people suddenly afraid of unions? Unions are a good thing people! They look after your rights at work, they fought long and hard to get the rights that you probably used to enjoy before work "choices" came along. Maybe turbo182 was right about 80% being too stupid to vote, the scare tactics really get to people, I mean the Government could keep repeating "the pears are invading us" for long enough and some people would vote Liberal because they were going to save us from the pears.
Anyone else notice its really only in the last 6 months to a year that this anti-union feeling has come around, its all from the Governments propaganda. Ridiculous.

I agree Liberal are protraying unions to be a bad things, but thats not what they are at all. At the end of the day someone with a basic intellect can work out that the AWA's favour businesses and not the workers. If people actually believe that workers are getting better deals with them than what unions were negotiating then why are businesses scared of the unions surely if workers were now getting a fair deal the unions wouldnt have anything to complain about.

At the end of the day in a capitalist economy it is all about the dollar. Business will do what they can to maximise profits both through prices and through saving money with staffing and if that means ripping their staff of overtime and leave loading etc then they will try and do it and the Liberals have now given them a platform in which to use to do it. It has gotten the balance wrong between the workers and business IMO and we need to address that. i work in a position where the AWAs havent effected me, but they effect others and that is what I look out for when I vote not just whether something affects me or not.

As for the rubbish about being able to run the economy etc that is just liberal scare talk just ask someone about little johnny when he was treasurer for Fraser and how well the australian economy was doing

 

[brucetiki]

I honestly think Labor is going to win this election. I think Johnny's attempt to destroy free speech on Sunday night was the killer for him IMO. Also, the latest opinion poll in today's Advertiser has shown Labor with a 58/42 lead.

Then there's the front-line campaigning in the electorates. For example, in Wakefield, Labor's been out there campaigning while the Libs have sat around assuming that they're going to win.

 

[crow87]

... i work in a position where the AWAs havent effected me, but they effect others and that is what I look out for when I vote not just whether something affects me or not.

(Sorry about the long post, hope its a decent read, its a bit late now)
Well said, its nice to hear someone say that once in a while because it seems like alot of people vote with their hip-pocket. I'm at uni at the moment and it is irrelevant what I will graduate as but lets just say that if I made certain choices I could be in a position where money wasnt something to worry about and either way be able to live comfortably.
This would probably put me in the position of many people who vote liberal, ie consider the tax cuts favouring the upper thresholds in this upcoming election.
I mention this because the thought crossed my mind on the train home tonight (darn projects due on Friday ), am I just a bit of a leftie because I'm a student? I dont think this is entirely the case, and hopefully there are more people out there who like me wants to see money spent on the country, improve things like Hospitals, Schools and Universities, and most importantly move the country forward, not just feed money into the pockets of fat-cats (even if I was one myself-which will not happen lol but I can hope!).

Getting side-tracked here but riddle me this, why does the government (State or Federal-whoever it is, I think its the Federal) pump ridiculous amounts of Money into Private schools, while the public schools suffer? Again I come to (Without turning too commie on you ) wondering why the best off get the best deal? Someone will pull some figures and shut me up but there is definitely a lack of "the fair go".

Brucetiki I hope you are right about the upcoming election but I wouldnt read too much into polls, least of all the advertisers opinion poll. While there is certainly a real anti-Howard feeling and a sentiment for change around at the moment come election day alot of people are going to get scared and go back to what they have had for the past 11 years and also vote thinking they're protecting their wallets. There is nothing to say that a Labor Government will pose a great risk to this leather item anyway.

Cue Waltzing Matilda music:
I want to see this country do good things, not trample on human rights, humiliate refugees, and go to war on false pretences. I want leadership that is actually going to do something about Global Warming and I want to be proud of Australia again for things other than sport. The bottom line is I want to have confidence in our Federal leaders again.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Cue Waltzing Matilda music:
I want to see this country do good things, not trample on human rights, humiliate refugees, and go to war on false pretences. I want leadership that is actually going to do something about Global Warming and I want to be proud of Australia again for things other than sport. The bottom line is I want to have confidence in our Federal leaders again.

 

[Jars458]

I Then there's the front-line campaigning in the electorates. For example, in Wakefield, Labor's been out there campaigning while the Libs have sat around assuming that they're going to win.

I think the Libs have conceded Wakefield Makin and Kingston to an extent as teh margins are too thin.

Most of their dough will be going into Sturt and Boothby and believe it or not Gray is even in some trouble apparantly.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Interest rates are set to go up.

Anyone else hear the sound of a nail being driven into a coffin?

 

[betterthanu]

I don't know anything about politics and i am voting for Rudd. If that's anything to go by it could give you an idea of how the politically stupid people are gonna vote. Seems like you have my vote Nicole

 

[Dogga79]

(Sorry about the long post, hope its a decent read, its a bit late now)
Well said, its nice to hear someone say that once in a while because it seems like alot of people vote with their hip-pocket. I'm at uni at the moment

I vote with my hip pocket because that is the bottom lime for families and business.

Cue Waltzing Matilda music:
I want to see this country do good things, not trample on human rights, humiliate refugees, and go to war on false pretences. I want leadership that is actually going to do something about Global Warming and I want to be proud of Australia again for things other than sport. The bottom line is I want to have confidence in our Federal leaders again.

Allow me to retort

What is wrong with our human rights. I'd say if you compare us to China we don't scrub up to bad in that region.

There are about 21 million refugees annually. Can you imagine what would happen if we just opened up the borders. It would be anarchy. I'm happy for any one to come here as long as they do it the proper way.

I support the war, as it means more to me than a bumper sticker or following the Uni crowd like a sheep.

You should check out the film the Great Global Warming swindle on you tube. It opened my eyes to what is really happening with global warming.

Middle Australia vote liberal in massive numbers. They are from that silent majority that aren't heard from until it is time to vote on election day.

 

[hey shorty]

Im one of those who thinks global warming is greatly exaggerated. I mean it may exist, but it isnt anywhere near as bad as most people portray it. Also, I think our human rights are good, right up there with the rest of the world. Our standard of living is quite good really. I am yet to have a job that involves an AWA so I dont know a great deal about the whole process apart from what I learnt in TAFE, which was a very biased union point of view so that I cant comment too much on.

Im also not a guy who pays too much attention to the opinion polls. Whilst it is important, you dont hear from EVERY single person as to what their opinions are. I am still yet to decide as to which way I will vote, and it might take me up until the very minute I walk into my booth. Its the first time I have voted in a federal election so I want to make sure I know as much as possible from each perspective. My electorate is a safe Libs seat (Mayo) and that doesnt look as if it will change although you can sense it a little in the community. Wont be enough to swing it the ALP way but it may get a lot closer than in recent times.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Allow me to retort

What is wrong with our human rights. I'd say if you compare us to China we don't scrub up to bad in that region.

There are about 21 million refugees annually. Can you imagine what would happen if we just opened up the borders. It would be anarchy. I'm happy for any one to come here as long as they do it the proper way.

I support the war, as it means more to me than a bumper sticker or following the Uni crowd like a sheep.

You should check out the film the Great Global Warming swindle on you tube. It opened my eyes to what is really happening with global warming.

Middle Australia vote liberal in massive numbers. They are from that silent majority that aren't heard from until it is time to vote on election day.

Im going to assume that was intentional satire and say good stuff.

 

[Dogga79]

Im going to assume that was intentional satire and say good stuff.

Feel free to elaborate a little more.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Feel free to elaborate a little more.

Oh Christ... you were serious? Ok, here we go...

What is wrong with our human rights. I'd say if you compare us to China we don't scrub up to bad in that region.

Is China really the standard you want to set? I can tell you this, in recent times our standing with the United Nations human rights bodies has fallen dramatically.

http://arts.anu.edu.au/democraticaudit/papers/20060809_charlesworth_aust_un.pdf

There are about 21 million refugees annually. Can you imagine what would happen if we just opened up the borders. It would be anarchy. I'm happy for any one to come here as long as they do it the proper way.

Oh please. Noone suggests an open border policy. On the other hand, holding people in what amounts to a prison for years without access to representation is also clearly wrong.

I support the war, as it means more to me than a bumper sticker or following the Uni crowd like a sheep.

What does it mean to you exactly?

You should check out the film the Great Global Warming swindle on you tube. It opened my eyes to what is really happening with global warming.

That doc. has been discussed at great lengths on these boards, do a search. Its far from credible.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342914&highlight=Global+warming

Middle Australia vote liberal in massive numbers. They are from that silent majority that aren't heard from until it is time to vote on election day.

This is my favourite of all. I think you may be in denial.

 

[Dogga79]

Is China really the standard you want to set? I can tell you this, in recent times our standing with the United Nations human rights bodies has fallen dramatically.

http://arts.anu.edu.au/democraticaudit/papers/20060809_charlesworth_aust_un.pdf

The UN has zero credibility. To me its just a building full of kleptocrats. This is the same mob that let Zimbabwe sit in a commission on Human Rights.

Oh please. Noone suggests an open border policy. On the other hand, holding people in what amounts to a prison for years without access to representation is also clearly wrong.

Well what then? You pose more questions than answers.

What does it mean to you exactly?

To me its a chance for Iraq.

That doc. has been discussed at great lengths on these boards, do a search. Its far from credible.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342914&highlight=Global+warming

So says you. I love the intolerance from the left when someone doesn't agree with the polemic of man made global warming.

A British judge last week ruled that Al Gore's doco has 9 major scientific flaws in it. When he stated in that movie the debate is over it lost all credibility with me.

This is my favourite of all. I think you may be in denial.

Maybe, but I just love the way everyone thinks it will be bliss with Rudd at the helm.

 

[Southerntakeover]

The UN has zero credibility. To me its just a building full of kleptocrats. This is the same mob that let Zimbabwe sit in a commission on Human Rights.

Thats nice. When told we fail to meet international standards on human rights, you choose to attack the international standards, instead of our own actions.

Let me point this out, we are voluntarily a signatory to the UN human rights treaties. It is not good enough to then attack those treaties when we violate them.

Well what then? You pose more questions than answers.

Asking questions is not a danger. Its when people accept things unquestioningly that problems arise. Id suggest the system, if it is to remain as it is needs to a) allow those detained to recieve proper representation, b) be sped up to avoid holding people for years (at taxpayers expense and c) operate in a way that doesnt pose a serious risk to the human beings we are detaining.

To me its a chance for Iraq.

Thats a nothing answer. A chance for them to what?

Be driven into a civil war perhaps?

So says you. I love the intolerance from the left when someone doesn't agree with the polemic of man made global warming.

A British judge last week ruled that Al Gore's doco has 9 major scientific flaws in it. When he stated in that movie the debate is over it lost all credibility with me.

Tell you what, if you want to argue that issue, do it in the thread that i linked you to, where the debate in full is.

Do you have a link to the British Judge's ruling? I would be interested in reading it for myself.

Maybe, but I just love the way everyone thinks it will be bliss with Rudd at the helm.

Sunshine, lollypops and rainbows all round.

 

[Dogga79]

Tell you what, if you want to argue that issue, do it in the thread that i linked you to, where the debate in full is.

Do you have a link to the British Judge's ruling? I would be interested in reading it for myself.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/corporate_law/article2633838.ece

I will have a look at the board you suggested and look forward to throwing a few curve balls your way at a later stage.

 

[crow87]

What is wrong with our human rights. I'd say if you compare us to China we don't scrub up to bad in that region.

I wasnt talking about the rights of you, or I but of refugees, many indigeneous people and a certain South Australian who was in the wrong place in the wrong time and did something stupid. Oh yeah, lets not forget those locked up without charge in the hell we call guantanamo bay, which our government supported. And seriously, compared to China? *big sigh*

There are about 21 million refugees annually. Can you imagine what would happen if we just opened up the borders. It would be anarchy. I'm happy for any one to come here as long as they do it the proper way.

As Southern said, no-one is suggesting an open border policy and such an over-reaction of a statement is so typical of this government you could have a job with them if they survive this campaign.

I support the war, as it means more to me than a bumper sticker or following the Uni crowd like a sheep.

Why? A chance for Iraq? A chance for what exactly? How do you feel about the false pretences under which we went to war? And AWB? The war in Iraq is the biggest shame of our time.

You should check out the film the Great Global Warming swindle on you tube. It opened my eyes to what is really happening with global warming.

I've seen it, actually I have it. Its important to get your hands on as many sources as possible when you want to understand something. I was unimpressed, a pretty ordinary and shady "documentry".

Middle Australia vote liberal in massive numbers. They are from that silent majority that aren't heard from until it is time to vote on election day.

On this you are probably the most right out all all the above.

Congratulations it seems you're following the crowd that thinks they're not following the crowd.

 

[noddy]

I vote with my hip pocket because that is the bottom lime for families and business.





Allow me to retort

What is wrong with our human rights. I'd say if you compare us to China we don't scrub up to bad in that region.

There are about 21 million refugees annually. Can you imagine what would happen if we just opened up the borders. It would be anarchy. I'm happy for any one to come here as long as they do it the proper way.

I support the war, as it means more to me than a bumper sticker or following the Uni crowd like a sheep.

You should check out the film the Great Global Warming swindle on you tube. It opened my eyes to what is really happening with global warming.

Middle Australia vote liberal in massive numbers. They are from that silent majority that aren't heard from until it is time to vote on election day.

Others have already debated your views on your other points but this one has me a little non-plussed.

You add later that it was for the Iraq people that we went to war when in fact it was to remove all those WMDs that Saddam had hidden under every sand dune & in the process try & secure oil for future needs.

What really gets me is the brazen way John Howard blindly follows the worst president of the USA ever into a war that not only was for all the wrong reasons but in the aftermath has given thousands upon thousands of brand new terriosts a new haven to thrive in.

Not to mention taking their collective eyes of off the "ones-that-we-let-slip-away" in Afghanistan.

hope you are enjoying the war.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

For the most heavily taxed country in the world to be so backwards in education and health is a bloody disgrace. Apart from the phantom WMD in Iraq, we went in there to get Saddaam, a leader who like Bin Laden was groomed by the USA, because he mudered off the top of my head 1500 Kurds back in the 80's. 1500. Thats right he was a War Criminal for killing 1500 Kurds. How many are messers Howard, Bush and Blair guilty of murdering during there illeagal war in Iraq? Then there is Howard moving the international border between Australia and one of the poorest countries in the world, East Timor, so that we can reep over $1,000,000 a day in oil that is rightly theres. Then there is our treatment of immigrants, women kids and men who are the desperate to escape there war torn countries in a rusty overcrowded boat, we throw them in a desert for 5 years and then ship them out. How much hatred do you think these people have towards Australia, the lucky country. I worry about the retaliation we will cop from these people in terms of terrorism in the future. I could go on, but Im sure ive already bored the crap out of whoever bothered reading this

 

[NikkiNoo]

Dogga79 - can you tell me how people who are persecuted in their own country can immigrate legally? If they are persecuted, they do not bring themselves to the attention of their government officials that they want out. Some of these people would be killed/tortured etc.

Also many of the refugees do not have access to the internet or television or the radio or anyway of finding out how to immigrate. They have a strong desire to get out of that country and do it the only way they realistically have access to.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

Ummm....just a technical point here. Australia hasn't fought in a war since the Second big one. To be at war the country's leader must declare war on another country in parliment.

That hasn't happened. They have declared that we will send troops/aircraft/ships, etc. but no war has been declared by us or on us since 1939.

Everything else has been a military detachment or deployment. Whether at the invitation of the UN or just following our Big bum buddy Brother.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Ummm....just a technical point here. Australia hasn't fought in a war since the Second big one. To be at war the country's leader must declare war on another country in parliment.

That hasn't happened. They have declared that we will send troops/aircraft/ships, etc. but no war has been declared by us or on us since 1939.

Everything else has been a military detachment or deployment. Whether at the invitation of the UN or just following our Big bum buddy Brother.

Murder then? Protecting oil? Certainly was no invitation by the UN to go to Iraq...

 

[Markthirtytwo]

Murder then? Protecting oil? Certainly was no invitation by the UN to go to Iraq...

Your right with the second choice. With the last one that was Korea.

 

[Dogga79]

Dogga79 - can you tell me how people who are persecuted in their own country can immigrate legally? If they are persecuted, they do not bring themselves to the attention of their government officials that they want out. Some of these people would be killed/tortured etc.

Also many of the refugees do not have access to the internet or television or the radio or anyway of finding out how to immigrate. They have a strong desire to get out of that country and do it the only way they realistically have access to.

Ok here we go. I have got a few people to reply to so be patient.

How do they get here legally? The quick answer it would be very hard.

Firstly I agree with everything in your above statement, in reference to the desperate humanitarian plight these people face. It must be horrible and nobody wants to see people suffer. The problem with what you have said is that it still doesn't answer anything. This is were conservatives and liberalism part. I think it is inhumane the way people were coming here to start with. The people smugglers or snakeheads in Indonesia were making all the money and god knows how many people died on the voyage to our shores. There has to be a plan. I'm sure I cant begin to imagine the horror like existance it is for these people, but I will never agree to Australia becoming essentially a dumping ground for the worlds problems. What we should be doing is addressing problems at their source. That is why you help governments with aid. If we start accepting all the people from the worlds wars can you imagine the social impact of this. Refugees have a myriad of problems and needs. If there was to be a flood of them it just wouldn't work.

So in a nutshell. Money is better spent in overseas aid. If we help treat the problem at its source I believe it is a better outcome. Simply moving people doesn't help the ones left behind in the war torn and corrupt countries. But by no means am I anti immigration, seeing as we are all immigrants to start with. You may not agree with me but, that is my honest answer to a complex problem.