Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[Brunswick Trap King]

Wrong. Heaps do. Eg there is a common belief that things like the caste system didn't exist in India until the Brits arrived. Which is absolutely wrong.

There are the tabula rasa and noble savage beliefs, which rest on the belief that civilisation is 'fallen' in some way and we have deviated from a pure nature.

I still find it hard to believe. You're essentially saying people don't believe the Egyptians had a hierarchical system.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I apologise for responding with a video - but I found this today, and it articulates my point better than I think I could. There is no straw manning of Peterson as far as I can see, since the video provides video and audio clips directly from JP, and establishes bullet points at the same time.

It's 24 minutes but it's worth watching. Would love to hear feedback on why SH's points are incorrect.

Here it is:

Except it's not JP vs SH, it's some vested interests critical extrapolation.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I'm getting a Jim Jones vibe around this guy. If he says y'all should move to Guyana, don't do it.

Says the spokesman for the truly brainwashed.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Why are you all so afraid of someone who is pretty much just telling people to do the best they can with their lives, for themselves, their families and for the world?

Because he's been unwittingly chosen to play against their team.

The actual content of his work is irrelevant.

 

[Chief]

He has been on travelling around the world giving advice to people on how to live their lives, then says that he has been unhappy and unhealthy all of this time. If I was unhappy and unhealthy, I wouldn't be giving people advice on how to live their lives. I would try and get happy and healthy, then explain how I achieved it. What use is success if you are unhappy.

If it came across as a cheap shot, which I acknowledge it could have, I apologise. It wasn't my best post.

Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I apologise for responding with a video - but I found this today, and it articulates my point better than I think I could. There is no straw manning of Peterson as far as I can see, since the video provides video and audio clips directly from JP, and establishes bullet points at the same time.

It's 24 minutes but it's worth watching. Would love to hear feedback on why SH's points are incorrect.

Here it is:

Got only as far as 1.40 out of 24.00. False claim that Peterson believes Darwinian truth's are the only truths we have access to, and that he goes on to say that this is how prescriptively guide our thought processes in the future. Not worth watching the rest.

 

[yebiga]

I still find it hard to believe. You're essentially saying people don't believe the Egyptians had a hierarchical system.

The essential foundation of the extreme left - post modern thinkers - is that much of what human culture is merely a social construct - and a patriarchal dominance hierarchy at that

What Peterson is trying to show with the lobster is that hierarchy and dominance is not socially constructed but biologically rooted. And the lobster being 480 million years old makes it predate any conceivable social construct.

Where many get confused is that they aren’t familiar with the ideological underpinnings of post modernism.
But this is the foundation argument of extreme feminism, trans rights, demands for equal outcomes, minimising competition amongst children in education...
All these and many other modern agenda pushed by the extreme left are underpinned by this argument that hierarchies are merely social constructs and so we can change them at will.

Peterson targets thus foundation and thereby removed the very ground on which the extreme left stands on - and this naturally pisses them off and so they resort to attempts at painting him as - pick your ogre.

 

[Chief]

No that is the way someone who doesn’t know much tries to impress you with banality dressed up as profundity.

Peterson dabbles in the same salad of abstraction but grounds it within a clear framework of what it means to be human.

U wot m8?

"Pasnau's words here are not the mark of a hardline skeptic; in fact, he rejects skepticism as a belief to which one can commit. At one point, he adopts a position of philosophical humility toward the very word "knowledge" itself, writing, "The word 'knowledge'… can take care of itself. It needs no defense from us and deserves to be left in peace by the philosophers for a while." Humans experience life in the world every day, acting as if they have what is philosophically supposed to be knowledge, and few end up stumbling so badly that they reveal a fundamental fissure between the human mind and the external world which never shall be bridged. Upon surveying a broad history of knowledge, Pasnau concludes that while such quests have been fruitful, and even illuminating in their failures, for the everyday person and even for the uncertain philosopher, hope can lead the way, cutting through the hand-wringing of the skeptics and taming the lofty expectations of grander theories of knowledge. "

 

[Snake_Baker]

All I want to know is who the hell is "pussnose"?

 

[its free real estate]

I still find it hard to believe. You're essentially saying people don't believe the Egyptians had a hierarchical system.

People believe that Egyptians looked like sub Saharan Africans. Fashionable nonsense is prevalent everywhere.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

The essential foundation of the extreme left - post modern thinkers - is that much of what human culture is merely a social construct - and a patriarchal dominance hierarchy at that

What Peterson is trying to show with the lobster is that hierarchy and dominance is not socially constructed but biologically rooted. And the lobster being 480 million years old makes it predate any conceivable social construct.

Where many get confused is that they aren’t familiar with the ideological underpinnings of post modernism.
But this is the foundation argument of extreme feminism, trans rights, demands for equal outcomes, minimising competition amongst children in education...
All these and many other modern agenda pushed by the extreme left are underpinned by this argument that hierarchies are merely social constructs and so we can change them at will.

Peterson targets thus foundation and thereby removed the very ground on which the extreme left stands on - and this naturally pisses them off and so they resort to attempts at painting him as - pick your ogre.

This has no relevance to my discussion.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

People believe that Egyptians looked like sub Saharan Africans. Fashionable nonsense is prevalent everywhere.

100%. The black Egyptian theory is nonsense. But anyone who posits western culture invented hierarchies is a fringe nutter. I don't really think this is what ShanDog was getting at.

I just don't really believe that anyone without schizophrenia believes that hierarchies were a western invention

 

[Partridge]

Wrong. Heaps do. Eg there is a common belief that things like the caste system didn't exist in India until the Brits arrived. Which is absolutely wrong.

There are the tabula rasa and noble savage beliefs, which rest on the belief that civilisation is 'fallen' in some way and we have deviated from a pure nature.

There certainly are. All the way back to Rousseau. Steven Pinker demolished that in The Blank Slate and again in The Better Angels of Our Nature.

 

[ShanDog]

100%. The black Egyptian theory is nonsense. But anyone who posits western culture invented hierarchies is a fringe nutter. I don't really think this is what ShanDog was getting at.

I just don't really believe that anyone without schizophrenia believes that hierarchies were a western invention

There are nutters out there like that, but what I was going for was the tabula rasa or social constructivist critiques of modernity, science and society that are embedded within postmodern philosophy as someone rose mentioned above. They often lay blame at the feet of society and power structures for the existence of hierarchies with inherent inequalities. This is the argument Peterson doesn't like, because it doesn't account for the natural and consistent existence of hierarchies that pre-date humans and can be found literally everywhere. The problem with hierarchies is not that they exist and not that systems like capitalism perpetuate them, it's that they can disenfranchise people at the bottom and destabilise if they aren't kept in check, leading to all sorts of bad times.

We can control these disparities and - if you wanted to go to the extreme - effectively eliminate them (communism, for example). Ironically, to do so is to engage in the same social constructionism that the social construction advocates blame for the current problems. Much like how people against discrimination and happy to discriminate against those who are "in power", it's ultimately hypocritical and a poor substitute for a fruitful solution.

 

[pugsville]

Also re: climate change, Peterson doesn't say it doesn't exist at all. Not sure where this is coming from, but it's now been mentioned a couple of times.

Peterson says it;s teh greatest problem facing mankind, but we should do nothing.

More quality crackpot advice from Guru of Blather,

 

[Snake_Baker]

Peterson says it;s teh greatest problem facing mankind, but we should do nothing.

More quality crackpot advice from Guru of Blather,

You can't even properly utilise a keyboard.

 

[pugsville]

Most of us do, but some of us a social constructionist who like to assign blame on western capitalist patriarchy for the existence of social hierarchies. That's the point. Peterson uses one of the oldest examples in nature he can find to say "Nope, you can't lay this at the feet of humans or western philosophy or capitalism or patriarchy etc". It's a very simple point that gets way too much attention.

It;s complete distraction and irrelevance. Heierchaires exist in nature so what? SHuld we just throw up our hands and stop tryingto make the most of Human society

Give Us one practical example of how the lobster thing leads to anything useful.

It's just babble without meaning.

 

[pugsville]

You can't even properly utilise a keyboard.

I can but it takes concentration. You get the piont you understand what I'm saying. You are just chosing to response o=in manner that is what any substance or meaning. Andres the arguments and save the empty posturing.

 

[twotooto]

This discussion is giving me a bit of deja vu. It's like we've all been here before.

Anyway, this just showed up in my YouTube suggested playlist. Could it be a case of divine providence?

Alas, some light listening whilst the finer details are being fleshed out.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I can but it takes concentration. You get the piont you understand what I'm saying. You are just chosing to response o=in manner that is what any substance or meaning. Andres the arguments and save the empty posturing.

It takes effort to embarrass the contemporary left, but I have to hand it to you for successfully achieving that goal.

 

[ShanDog]

It;s complete distraction and irrelevance. Heierchaires exist in nature so what? SHuld we just throw up our hands and stop tryingto make the most of Human society

Give Us one practical example of how the lobster thing leads to anything useful.

It's just babble without meaning.

Yeah that's exactly what Peterson advocates - everyone should give up on life and go live in a cave somewhere. That way we can really get back to basics where we can club our women over the head and get procreating...

Is there any caricature or misrepresentation of Peterson's views you aren't willing to make?

 

[yebiga]

U wot m8?

"Pasnau's words here are not the mark of a hardline skeptic; in fact, he rejects skepticism as a belief to which one can commit. At one point, he adopts a position of philosophical humility toward the very word "knowledge" itself, writing, "The word 'knowledge'… can take care of itself. It needs no defense from us and deserves to be left in peace by the philosophers for a while." Humans experience life in the world every day, acting as if they have what is philosophically supposed to be knowledge, and few end up stumbling so badly that they reveal a fundamental fissure between the human mind and the external world which never shall be bridged. Upon surveying a broad history of knowledge, Pasnau concludes that while such quests have been fruitful, and even illuminating in their failures, for the everyday person and even for the uncertain philosopher, hope can lead the way, cutting through the hand-wringing of the skeptics and taming the lofty expectations of grander theories of knowledge. "

Common! Surely you want him to put together something more than it been a waste of time for philosophers to search for knowledge.
JP also concludes the external world cannot be fully understood
But ok then - what do you do with that?

 

[yebiga]

This has no relevance to my discussion.

Really! Think about it a little
The entire post modern foundation is that heirarxhies are arbitrary constructions
This informs the radical left

And post after post you keep repeating to shandog how you can’t believe anyone thinks that
Who thinks that?

Well you’ve been told who and how widespread it is

And your response is it’s irrlevant ffs!

 

[its free real estate]

100%. The black Egyptian theory is nonsense. But anyone who posits western culture invented hierarchies is a fringe nutter. I don't really think this is what ShanDog was getting at.

I just don't really believe that anyone without schizophrenia believes that hierarchies were a western invention

The other day I read an indigenous activist assert that they don’t believe in colonialist Western migration theories, and that indigenous people have always been on the land, have never come from anywhere else.



Yeah ok. Unless you descended from koalas or some s**t you’re out of Africa like everyone else.

 

[The Passenger]

Unless you descended from koalas or some s**t you’re out of Africa like everyone else.