Pay holding the ball

[footyfan1978]

Finally someone else who has clearly read the rule book..

And yes incorrect disposal is a rule in general play, it doesn’t apply when a player is being tackled. A tackle either results in holding the ball or play on.

I think you missed something here. You have forgotten one very very important aspect which is a concern that even a good thoughtful post has totally forgotten too. Why are you not even thinking about whether a tackle is legal in the first place?
It is every bit as important for umpires to take note if tackles are legal. If you tackle too high or too low, umpires should be paying a free kick against sloppy attempts at tackles that are illegal. Also be bloody quick about it too. I see way too many tackles I see as terrible not paid free kicks against and it just encourages players to have really poor tackling techniques that just encourages more stoppages and congestion. If someone had prior opportunity and tackled legally and do not dispose of correctly pay holding the ball. If someone tackles very poorly, pay a free against the tackler so they know if you going to attempt to tackle make sure you are tackling around the waist and not head or shoulder region. It is sad state of affair that fans are not even seemingly concerned if tackles are poor at all. They just want more tackles and give tackler benefit of doubt he done it right.
Sad indeed.

 

[Magnum27]

You want to fix footy: pay holding the ball.

This sport has been ruined by listening to moron players who think winning the ball means you get protection. Abolish prior opportunity and pay holding the ball.

Agreed, this idea of prior opportunity is crap, what is the tackler supposed to do count to ten and then tackle the player. Tackling is part of our great game and if is done correctly regardless of how long the other player has the ball should be rewarded, players are just dropping the ball now without fear of penalty.

 

[PendlesPremiers]

Agreed, this idea of prior opportunity is crap, what is the tackler supposed to do count to ten and then tackle the player. Tackling is part of our great game and if is done correctly regardless of how long the other player has the ball should be rewarded, players are just dropping the ball now without fear of penalty.

This is just silly. A great tackle is always rewarded- you stop the opposition from moving the ball how they want to. If they haven't had prior opportunity and attempted to dispose of it legally, it's a ball up. if they have had prior opportunity and don't dispose of it legally, you get a free kick. There is no downside to a legal tackle at all.

 

[Magnum27]

This is just silly. A great tackle is always rewarded- you stop the opposition from moving the ball how they want to. If they haven't had prior opportunity and attempted to dispose of it legally, it's a ball up. if they have had prior opportunity and don't dispose of it legally, you get a free kick. There is no downside to a legal tackle at all.

If you don't dispose of it legally, isn't it incorrect disposal, hence a free kick, all we see now is players throw it or drop the ball, why bother tackling if that is allowed now.

 

[PendlesPremiers]

If you don't dispose of it legally, isn't it incorrect disposal, hence a free kick, all we see now is players throw it or drop the ball, why bother tackling if that is allowed now.

If you have prior opportunity, you must dispose of it legally. If you don't have prior opportunity, you must ATTEMPT to dispose of it legally- there is no requirement to be successful in that attempt. That's the rule.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

I’m more worried that throwing/dropping the ball doesn’t even seem to be a rule anymore. It’s like the umps would genuinely rather players throw the thing than hold it in the tackle.

dont you hear the umps say "he tried", when players are in a scrum and throwing the ball out

 

[blue harvest]

How many times is the ball thrown or handed over and paid? Very few and even if it’s blatantly obvious they don’t pay, how in ****s name can you dispose of the ball by hand using one arm? Read the ******* the rules moron, the umpires have no ******* idea about what constitutes correct disposal , att3mpting to kick and missing the ball is not and never has been correct disposal . Rugby throws , Clayton Oliver and Adam Treloar are the leading exponents has never been correct disposal,

Read the rules

I have read the rules.

Attempting to kick and miss may not be a 'correct disposal' but it's not a free kick if you had no prior. This is covered by htb rule. The incorrect disposal rule relates specifically to throwing and handing the ball. In fact the rule book specifically mentions your 2 examples as not being free kicks if you had no prior.


15.2.3 Holding the Football – Prior Opportunity/No Prior Opportunity
(a) Where the field Umpire is satisfied that a Player in possession
of the football:
(i) has had a prior opportunity to dispose of the football, the
field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against that Player
if the Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football
immediately when they are Correctly Tackled;
(ii) has not had a prior opportunity to dispose of the football,
the field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against that
Player if, upon being Correctly Tackled, the Player does not
Correctly Dispose or genuinely attempt to Correctly Dispose

15.2.4 Application – Specific Instances where Play shall Continue
For the avoidance of doubt, the field Umpire shall allow play to
continue when:
(a) a Player is bumped and the football falls from the Player’s hands;
(b) a Player’s arm is knocked which causes the Player to lose
possession of the football;
(c) a Player’s arms are pinned to their side by an opponent which
causes the Player to drop the football, unless the Player has had
a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which
case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply;
(d) a Player, whilst in the act of Correctly Disposing of the football,
is swung off-balance and does not make contact with the
football by either foot or hand, unless the Player has had a prior
opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case
Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply; or
(e) a Player is pulled or swung by one arm which causes the football
to fall from the Player’s hands, unless the Player has had a prior
opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case
Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply.

15.3.2 Incorrect Disposal and Payment of Free Kick
When the football is in play, a Free Kick shall be awarded against a
Player who hands the football to another Player or throws the football.

 

[blue harvest]

If you have prior opportunity, you must dispose of it legally. If you don't have prior opportunity, you must ATTEMPT to dispose of it legally- there is no requirement to be successful in that attempt. That's the rule.

They should put this on giant billboards outside the ground and on the big video screens every decision. Maybe then all the clueless morons will stop yelling 'baaaallll', 'how did he get rid of it' and 'he just dropped it'

 

[doppleganger]

If there is no rule as dropping the ball (which I grew up playing with, albeit 30 years ago) why do the umpires still signal dropping the ball after they blow the whistle? Arms to the chest, out to the side. Which used to mean 'dropping the ball' ?

That is the signal for ‘holding the ball’.

 

[doppleganger]

I think you missed something here. You have forgotten one very very important aspect which is a concern that even a good thoughtful post has totally forgotten too. Why are you not even thinking about whether a tackle is legal in the first place?
It is every bit as important for umpires to take note if tackles are legal. If you tackle too high or too low, umpires should be paying a free kick against sloppy attempts at tackles that are illegal. Also be bloody quick about it too. I see way too many tackles I see as terrible not paid free kicks against and it just encourages players to have really poor tackling techniques that just encourages more stoppages and congestion. If someone had prior opportunity and tackled legally and do not dispose of correctly pay holding the ball. If someone tackles very poorly, pay a free against the tackler so they know if you going to attempt to tackle make sure you are tackling around the waist and not head or shoulder region. It is sad state of affair that fans are not even seemingly concerned if tackles are poor at all. They just want more tackles and give tackler benefit of doubt he done it right.
Sad indeed.

Indeed, of course the player has to be tackled correctly.

There would be a bigger outrage if umpires started paying ‘incorrect disposal’ every time a player was tackled.

There would be pushing 150 frees a game, and then the same nuffies complaining now will be up in arms at the umpires thinking they are an important part of the game blah blah blah

 

[doppleganger]

I have read the rules, so have the umpires, have you?

Attempting to kick and miss may not be a 'correct disposal' but it's not a free kick if you had no prior. This is covered by htb rule. The incorrect disposal rule relates specifically to throwing and handing the ball. In fact the rule book specifically mentions your 2 examples as not being free kicks if you had no prior.


15.2.3 Holding the Football – Prior Opportunity/No Prior Opportunity
(a) Where the field Umpire is satisfied that a Player in possession
of the football:
(i) has had a prior opportunity to dispose of the football, the
field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against that Player
if the Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football
immediately when they are Correctly Tackled;
(ii) has not had a prior opportunity to dispose of the football,
the field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against that
Player if, upon being Correctly Tackled, the Player does not
Correctly Dispose or genuinely attempt to Correctly Dispose

15.2.4 Application – Specific Instances where Play shall Continue
For the avoidance of doubt, the field Umpire shall allow play to
continue when:
(a) a Player is bumped and the football falls from the Player’s hands;
(b) a Player’s arm is knocked which causes the Player to lose
possession of the football;
(c) a Player’s arms are pinned to their side by an opponent which
causes the Player to drop the football, unless the Player has had
a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which
case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply;
(d) a Player, whilst in the act of Correctly Disposing of the football,
is swung off-balance and does not make contact with the
football by either foot or hand, unless the Player has had a prior
opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case
Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply; or
(e) a Player is pulled or swung by one arm which causes the football
to fall from the Player’s hands, unless the Player has had a prior
opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case
Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply.

15.3.2 Incorrect Disposal and Payment of Free Kick
When the football is in play, a Free Kick shall be awarded against a
Player who hands the football to another Player or throws the football.

They have modified for 2019 actually

17.6 HOLDING THE BALL
17.6.1 Spirit and Intention
The Player who has Possession of the Football will be provided an opportunity to dispose of the football before rewarding an opponent for a Legal Tackle.

It appears that the actual spirit of the rule is at complete odds with the masses, most on here apparently think the tackler should be rewarded!!

17.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity
(a) Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately when they are Legally Tackled.
(b) Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, the field Umpire shall throw up the football when a Player, in the act of applying a Legal Tackle, holds the football to the body of the Player
being tackled or the football is otherwise pinned to the ground.

17.6.3 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player elects to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled.
For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when:
(a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football;
(b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the Player’s possession.

Again the rule says the umpire has to be clear that a player made no attempt to correctly dispose, and the tackle itself didn’t contribute to possession being lost.

17.6.4 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: No Genuine Attempt
Where a Player is in Possession of the Football and is able but does not genuinely attempt to Correctly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled, a Free Kick shall be awarded.

17.6.5 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Diving on Top of the Football
A Free Kick shall be awarded against a Player who dives on top of or drags the football underneath their body and fails to immediately knock clear or Correctly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled.

 

[footyfan1978]

Indeed, of course the player has to be tackled correctly.

There would be a bigger outrage if umpires started paying ‘incorrect disposal’ every time a player was tackled.

There would be pushing 150 frees a game, and then the same nuffies complaining now will be up in arms at the umpires thinking they are an important part of the game blah blah blah

Indeed. What I want to see from umpires is a sharper focus on both making sure a tackler is tackling legally. No benefit of doubt, If it not clearly below shoulders and above knees, free kick against. Similarly, if tackled perfectly, and player had an opportunity to dispose of ball and does not, free kick to a legal tackle. The worst place to be is sloppy tackles not penalised or even rewarded and players dropping ball after properly tackled not penalised. It is not an easy job umpiring but think the umpiring fraternity can be improved upon, big time. If mroe free kicks are paid for stupid tackles, great, guy going after ball looked after and players just jumping on players with no care to tackle properly are taught if you continue to do this, free kick every time. It was soon stop the rolling mauls and repeated stoppages if umpires got way sharper on these things during games. I remember last year I made a conscious effort to notice how it was umpired when first started watching football and sloppy tackles had free kick against super fast and it really did encourage proper contests for ball and lack of congestion. I do not know how it slowly got so far away from that. It changed two decades ago and made the spectacle worse as a result.

 

[blue harvest]

They have modified for 2019 actually

17.6 HOLDING THE BALL
17.6.1 Spirit and Intention
The Player who has Possession of the Football will be provided an opportunity to dispose of the football before rewarding an opponent for a Legal Tackle.

It appears that the actual spirit of the rule is at complete odds with the masses, most on here apparently think the tackler should be rewarded!!

Thanks, I hadn't seen the 2019 version yet, must have only recently come out. Essentially identical to last year just rejigged the wording.

Edit:
Looks like however they have cleared up the confusion around incorrect disposal wording. Previously the wording wasn't very good, an incorrect disposal free was listed as a throw or handing the ball. Correct disposal was listed as kick or handball. So you had situations where a player didn't dispose correctly (eg: drop) but it wasn't an incorrect disposal as such - very confusing language. Now the wording is much better. Incorrect disposal is no longer just throw or handing the ball and is no longer listed as a free. Throwing and handing are now listed separately as frees which still apply at all times, and incorrect disposal is now discussed in the true sense of the word ie if it's not a correct disposal then it's an incorrect disposal, including drops. And it's now much clearer that an incorrect disposal is not a free if you had no prior and were trying to dispose correctly. The rule hasn't changed, just worded better. I have been waiting years for them to fix this wording.

 

[oak79]

"Two second rule"

If you are tackled after 2 seconds, you've had a prior.

Once tackled, you have 2 seconds to legally dispose of it - if you don't handball or kick it, it's incorrect disposal / HTB
(Knocked out is NOT play on, its incorrect disposal).

If tackled within 2 seconds of gaining possession, and you can't dispose of it then:
held to you = ball up, knocked out = play on

No gray are, simple to officiate (as long as the umpire is in a position to see).

 

[footyfan1978]

Seriously, the lack of thinking about tackles here is incredible.
There is a thing called a Legal Tackle. That is what players need to do. If you do not tackle legally, you should be penalised.
Why are so many football fans totally blind to this ? Can only assume they been conditioned to it there is a mental blindness and obsession with going after the guy first to the ball. Nuts we have got to this. Media have a lot to answer for ignorance of so many of our football followers.

 

[Hoops]

When would a player with the ball tackled not result in HtB

 

[JT_the_Man]

dont you hear the umps say "he tried", when players are in a scrum and throwing the ball out

Yeah but it shouldn’t matter. The rule is throwing the ball. If he tried and it didn’t work, it’s a ****ing throw.

 

[Achilles Heel]

Thanks, I hadn't seen the 2019 version yet, must have only recently come out. Essentially identical to last year just rejigged the wording.

Edit:
Looks like however they have cleared up the confusion around incorrect disposal wording. Previously the wording wasn't very good, an incorrect disposal free was listed as a throw or handing the ball. Correct disposal was listed as kick or handball. So you had situations where a player didn't dispose correctly (eg: drop) but it wasn't an incorrect disposal as such - very confusing language. Now the wording is much better. Incorrect disposal is no longer just throw or handing the ball and is no longer listed as a free. Throwing and handing are now listed separately as frees which still apply at all times, and incorrect disposal is now discussed in the true sense of the word ie if it's not a correct disposal then it's an incorrect disposal, including drops. And it's now much clearer that an incorrect disposal is not a free if you had no prior and were trying to dispose correctly. The rule hasn't changed, just worded better. I have been waiting years for them to fix this wording.

Define handball with what’s going on

 

[Vindicater]

After watching The games on Wednesday and Thursday I don't think incorrect disposal is a rule anymore.

It is clear coaches are starting to train their players to simply drop the ball when tackled.

 

[iBeng]

After watching The games on Wednesday and Thursday I don't think incorrect disposal is a rule anymore.

It is clear coaches are starting to train their players to simply drop the ball when tackled.

You are about 70% more likely to get PAID a free for being held, than for incorrect disposal, because Umpires are seeing it as "Dislodged" in the tackle and not just straight up dropped, pinging the guy tackling in the first place.

Its stupid and horrible to see.

 

[ciaobella]

I find it hilarious when people have a whinge about there being too many frees paid yet are the first to whinge when one isn't paid! If it's there, pay it. Couldn't give a rat's arse if 50 or more frees are paid in a game. Pay them! IMO holding the ball is the easiest one to pay. I don't watch much footy. Mostly only my own team. I did see the other week an ump pay a free against a Geelong player for incorrect disposal in that he just dropped the ball when he got tackled. Yep you can't do that. I was like wow, you don't see that often! I was happy to see it! The Ump let him know he just dropped it. I'm at a loss as to why the Umps don't pay this a lot more especially when players just drop the pill. If they've had prior and they don't see the player kick or handball but just simply drop it it's goodbye. This also applies to players who have had prior and then simply allow the tackler to tackle them over the boundary. You're toast! Or you should be!

I don't believe making the Umps full time will fix the problem. Removing grey rules and tightening up on the black and white ones. Oh and no guessing! If you can't see what's happening it's play on!

 

[HairyO]

And it is simple.

To dispose of the ball you need to handball or kick it.

Anything else is holding/dropping the ball.

Tackled literally as you get the ball and it spills free.

Holding the ball/Dropping the ball?

Reward the tackler not the one getting the ball?

 

[LFC2010]

Agreed.

If the ball falls out when you're tackled, you didn't dispose of it properly...

Properly being the key word here.

have the reward the player in making a good tackle, not penalise them.

 

[theyellowsash]

Just pay it. It’s a fundamental feature of the game. Pay it.

The game would improve immeasurably if they paid it.

You sir get all my likes for this week

 

[Finn Jim]

Holding the ball is one of the things that makes the game what it is. (As are the mark, bounce/ball ups, and goal umpire mustaches) If you look at all other football codes, basketball, handball, hockey (ice and field), etc. Australian Rules Football is the only one where the defending team are rewarded for successfully tackling the opposing player by being given possession (as opposed to tackling the player and then forcing the ball from him). In rugby after you tackle the bloke either he gets to get up and do it 5 more times or some strange lining up thing happens, someone doesn't move away and there's a penalty, US football you line up and do it again, soccer a tackle is a different thing.. etc. The point is holding the ball is what creates the flowing game because players are so nervous about being penalized and they try to dispose of the ball, which is good.

I don't mind a series of stoppages resulting from no prior opportunity, because the no prior opportunity rule is as good a compromise as there can be (doing away with it would be interesting). What drives me insane is when a player takes on a tackler, gets tackled, slung around, goes to ground, has the tackler on top of him, and "keeps the arms free" and after all that gets off a throwy handball. When everyone in the stadium is thinking "What does the defender have to do?" when in the same game a player can be running, have one arm held while still running and dragging the tackler for at most half a second, but that's "Holding the ball, free kick" and to a novice like me I have no idea when is someone "Gone". I just want to be able to know how long you can resist a tackle before it's ball.