Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 4 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[TommyD13]

Makes sense, but given the pages of discussion on here recently, are you targeting a project/mature lower-tier-comp ruck with #4, or possibly with #6?

(I know Sam Power was briefly on the players-with-two-first-names wagon, but I'm led to believe he's a fan of tongue-twisters too, so maybe rookie Raak and rookie a ruck!)

More likely 6. Would love to take two rookies who are similar to Bedendo, maybe one who is a very athletic tall with upside. Really gotta look for pace and leap with those picks and see if they can make the grade. Then probably be able to look at a couple mature rucks over the pre-season, along with a couple younger lads and see what we think is the best way forward.

 

[flipper83]

Can we move all the ruck talk to another thread. Getting sick of sifting through it for list management discussions

 

[Testekill]

This seems apropos to the ceaseless topic at hand...

Ladhams really sounds like a guy you can rely on to build your ruck stocks around.

Its a shame we missed out on him.

https://www.triplem.com.au/story/to...iSDOyGk0gks7fUFX4B9_XdX7HOBxi94RWFP6QpwJoOcRU

Nonsense, everyone knows that Bevo loves players that won't crack in and work hard off the field.

 

[josh the gent]

I think there was a pretty quick adjustment when we saw the difference in how English and Sweet both competed with Gawn in our loss to them that game, with Sweet completely out of his depth vs Gawn (67% time on ground, only 3 touches, English rucking more as the game went on). I think from that point on was when we considered English a more important ruck given Martin wasn't going to be fit.

I honestly think that we considered English a forward in large part because we were confident in Martin's ability and capacity to stay fit. Sweet rucking R5 without Martin hardly counts because GC were rucking Graham, and all other games English played after he came back from his concussion he did a lot of rucking (at least 40%) other than a one-off trick tactic v Port in R23.

And this circles round to the list management side - English was only ever a forward in the context of having a much better ruck, ie the Martin that quelled Grundy in R1 and what we thought we had. But English is still a better ruck other than that, so someone like Ceglar wouldn't displace English from the ruck position whilst simultaneously not being better than e.g. Schache up forward. Which made it a pointless recruit given the assets that would have been required.

Lynch we were also interested in but salary was a sticking point there.

In the end, our ability to land a genuinely good 1st ruck was hamstrung by injury and a bit of 2020-1 off-season misplaced optimism at Stef's ability to keep fit.

English has quite good forward craft, and we looked at our most threatening with a forward line of Bruce, Naughton and English as third-tall pinch-hitting in the ruck.

That also suited his rucking ability, where he gets regularly beaten at stoppages by much stronger rucks.

Conversely, Martin and Sweet are pure #1 rucks (and always will be). However, can we really rely on them to either stay injury free, or improve dramatically in 2022?

Even if you think we can rely on that - it’s a gamble.

I’ve no doubt we could have pried Goldstein loose by offering North our 2022 second rounder (with something back) - and rocked up a stronger looking team shooting for the flag next season.

It was an absolute no brainer.

 

[Custard Guts]

Ruck summary for the competition (200+ contests)...
View attachment 1261135

Jeez that's stark.

Perhaps not for lack of trying but remarkable to think the team that yielded those figures will attack next season with unchanged personnel.

I tell a lie. We ditched Lewy Young.

All aboard 'improvement from within!'

 

[hatescaptcha]

Jack Lonie

13

Jack Lonie

Age

27

Ht

175cm

Wt

70kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.7

3star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

0.9

4star

D

10.7

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

3.7

4star

T

2.6

4star

G

0.7

4star

D

13.4

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

4.4

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.0

4star

was delisted….


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Testekill]

Jack Lonie was delisted….


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Our national nightmare is almost over.

 

[Al dente]

Centre Bounce Rucks in 2021...
View attachment 1261138

Ruck summary for the competition (200+ contests)...
View attachment 1261135

as expected all our rucks own in that thin end of the curve,

really backs up our decision not to trade for one

 

[Tommycash]

I am still struggling to decide whether people think the ruck position is that important?

Some games it might be, but it is unlikely to be. Our team with the shoddy ruck division didn't stop us being one of the best teams in the comp, nor stop us from spanking Port in a prelim (may be worth remembering for those who think Ladhams would have been the piece of the jigsaw that would make us invincible).

The salary cap and draft system means no team can have an excellent team in all positions. Injuries also play a huge role. I remain convinced that if we played Melbourne in some weird NBA style best of 7 I couldn't say who would have come out on top. Sometimes the other team plays a blinder. Some times they are a bit down. We'll be back in finals again next year. Looking forward to it.

 

[dergert]

Our national nightmare is almost over.

Thank * list spots are tight because we would sign him for sure.

 

[Triple Baileys]

Jack Lonie was delisted….


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

There's only zero Jack Lonies...

 

[Triple Baileys]

Jack Lonie was delisted….


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

and to think, Bailey Dale and Caleb Daniel were still on the board.

 

[Generation West]

Yeah late in the piece there was some 'lifestyle' talk too when attracted him there.
Let's face it, most rucks in the comp would back themselves to beat Rhys Stanley for the no 1 ruck role and given Fort has left he's probably only competing with Ratogalea (forgive spelling) of a forward/ruck role too.
I actually rate English pretty highly as a forward/ruck so there would be very few guys in the comp I'd consider ahead of him there. Ceglar would have known he's a first ruck or nothing with us.
English played some very good roles presenting constantly as the 'get out' option down the line late in the season in that role.

When did Jon Ceglar become Gary Dempsey ?
Who from the club confirmed our interest in this bloke ?
He is the epitome of a football journeyman - a good honest plodder who is an ok VFL player and an at times ok AFL player.
The club signed Sweet and did not seriously chase any other established ruckman (that we’re available) because they were all sub standard to what we already have.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

You're better than this Mof. You've basically names a whole bunch of players who wouldn't have attended a centre bounce in 2021 or very few as a pinch 2nd ruck, who then by extension, we're allowed to name Schache and Bruce as rucks (who did attend centre bounces).

Blokes like Roughead (9 hitouts), McKay (6) likely just took stoppages deep in attack/forward maybe once every 2nd game, and we can't consider them rucks whatsoever. Blokes like Mitch Lewis are no more of a ruck than Schache's proven to be attending maybe 7 or 8 centre bounces a game.

Quietly looking forward to the melts when Bevo decides that versatility demands we turn Naughton into ruck #1….
You all know he’s considering it

 

[Arkangel]

Centre Bounce Rucks in 2021...
View attachment 1261138

Ruck summary for the competition (200+ contests)...
View attachment 1261135

Interesting to note from that table that Hickey, who's been perceived as a revelation in the ruck for Sydney this year, is only marginally better in both hit-outs and hit-outs-to-advantage than our remaining terrible trio. I guess he makes up for it by having a very strange-looking head, which distracts the opposition and provides an advantage to Sydney's midfielders.

 

[weltschmerz]

Interesting to note from that table that Hickey, who's been perceived as a revelation in the ruck for Sydney this year, is only marginally better in both hit-outs and hit-outs-to-advantage than our remaining terrible trio. I guess he makes up for it by having a very strange-looking head, which distracts the opposition and provides an advantage to Sydney's midfielders.

Naughton has the weirdest head on our team, which lends credence to the Naughton-in-the-ruck theory discussed above.

 

[adogsfan5]

If we ever ruck Bont again, I’ll lose my mind.

 

[hutchy31]

When did Jon Ceglar become Gary Dempsey ?
Who from the club confirmed our interest in this bloke ?
He is the epitome of a football journeyman - a good honest plodder who is an ok VFL player and an at times ok AFL player.
The club signed Sweet and did not seriously chase any other established ruckman (that we’re available) because they were all sub standard to what we already have.

I don’t think anyone is saying the rucks available were top drawer, or we should spend a lot of trade or draft capital on them. But we have a bottom six ruck division so maybe some ruck depth is useful when current state looks like Martin/English/Sweet - all of whom have massive question marks due to health/age, aptitude/physicality, and experience/stamina respectively. Particularly when our own coach stated the ruck would look different going forward because it was obvious we were in deficit there.

Some posters will strongly disagree that the ruck is an issue - they are entitled to their opinion. Hopefully those of us who believe it’s a significant problem, including how it affected our performance late in the home and away season and/or impacted finals, are also entitled to that opinion. It’s not ludicrous or mind-boggling to have either opinion.

 

[doggies ftw]

When did Jon Ceglar become Gary Dempsey ?
Who from the club confirmed our interest in this bloke ?
He is the epitome of a football journeyman - a good honest plodder who is an ok VFL player and an at times ok AFL player.
The club signed Sweet and did not seriously chase any other established ruckman (that we’re available) because they were all sub standard to what we already have.

He’s no world beater but he still had 17 touches, 6 clearances, 3 contested marks and 34 hitouts against English & Young’s combined 14 hit outs…

 

[Dogsman16]

Opposition rucks (Draper, Ceglar and Lycett) all got coaches votes in all 3 of the rd 21-23 games.

People have short memories if they don't think our ruck stocks are a genuine problem. And yes it hasn't improved.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Meanwhile, we need a couple of assistant coaches, preferably ones with new and dynamic ideas (short of turning Astro into a ruckman ).

 

[TiAn_]

But it's not as if we made those choices to completely avoid English rucking whatsoever or anything more than pinching. Other than once in R23. English still attended about half of the matches' ruck contests in the five games other than that from R22 onward.

Because we were using a barely passable Lewis Young and a post-injuries unfit Stef Martin during that stretch. We didn’t suddenly change English’s role to more ruck time because he was going great guns in there, it was literally only after Martin went down injured and Sweet proved to be not good enough. Even then, we only did it for Rds 14-21 before deciding we were better off using Young in there and moving English back to his forward/ruck role. Was that to replace Bruce? Probably. But that gets to the point - Bruce and Young won’t be there next year, so we’re starting next season already in Plan B.

I really hope English becomes a decent and competitive ruck next year, it would help us enormously. But is he more valuable in there or as a replacement for Bruce? I’d agree with the coaches and say the latter. Maybe JUH and Schache have enormous pre-seasons and become influential and consistent players, or Sweet/Martin stay on the park and overperform and it’s a moot point. I really hope any of those scenarios play out and my fears look misplaced in hindsight.

 

[Generation West]

I don’t think anyone is saying the rucks available were top drawer, or we should spend a lot of trade or draft capital on them. But we have a bottom six ruck division so maybe some ruck depth is useful when current state looks like Martin/English/Sweet - all of whom have massive question marks due to health/age, aptitude/physicality, and experience/stamina respectively. Particularly when our own coach stated the ruck would look different going forward because it was obvious we were in deficit there.

Some posters will strongly disagree that the ruck is an issue - they are entitled to their opinion. Hopefully those of us who believe it’s a significant problem, including how it affected our performance late in the home and away season and/or impacted finals, are also entitled to that opinion. It’s not ludicrous or mind-boggling to have either opinion.

No that’s fine to have an opinion re our ruck situation - I too see it as an issue, but I’m optimistic that Sweet/English have plenty of natural improvement and can work.
Everyone is holding the coach to his comment that our ruck will look different next year is a bit of a stretch in my view. He also said that Ash Hanson would be promoted to senior assistant and days later he went to Carlton.
We obviously had someone in mind but it did not eventuate and weren’t satisfied with what was available.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

There are some major psychological impact considerations to list changes that a lot of posters seem to overlook when discussing bringing additional players in.
For every action there will be a reaction.

Hypothetically if we had done what so many posters have been calling for and some how miraculously traded in an A grade ruckman with plenty of gas left in the metaphorical tank without giving up a lot and not blowing the salary cap. What would be the likely impact on the existing rucks and the list in general of such an event?

Sweet would probably start desperately looking for the nearest exit to save his fledgling AFL career.
English would likely start planning to head back to WA asap, and in the meantime have to switch his focus to being mainly a key forward.
Martin, if he stayed on the list would likely just go through the motions waiting/hoping for injury opportunities before retirement at the end of the season if not earlier.

English's adjusted focus would then likely have detrimental implications for guys like Marra, Schache, Bruce (late in the season) and any other non-entrenched player trying to squeeze into or stay in our forward line.

So next year our existing Rucks would all likely be trying to leave and need to be replaced to assist the mid career person we hypothetically got in this trade period. Marra might also be looking for an early exit come seasons end.

To be worth risking such an outcome, this hypothetical player would want to be very bloody good and the sort of player you want to build around. Such players are very hard to find and don't tend to come cheap either.

The other more realistic option would have been to try to bring in a very short term mature player close to the end of his career, basically a like for like replacement for Stef Martin. However any player at that stage is a gamble fitness wise, plus they may not fit in well with the rest of the list.

Stef Martin is a known quantity, he obviously fitted in well with the playing group this year and still suits our needs.

In spite of all the protests, keeping our existing ruck division moving forward was a reasonable and relatively low risk list management strategy compared to any of the potential alternatives I saw being floated during the trade period.

This is exactly what I heard from within the club. If we had brought in an A grade youngish ruckman then English would 100% leave to go home. He wants to be the #1 ruckman.

 

[maddog37]

This is exactly what I heard from within the club. If we had brought in an A grade youngish ruckman then English would 100% leave to go home. He wants to be the #1 ruckman.

He better put on his big boy pants soon then. Has all the tools, needs to get angry.