86-89 Hawks vs 13-15 Hawks

[Bungeye]

Lmao even the 1991 team would thrash the 86 team. The inclusion of Darren Jarman alone would be enough to make a difference.

Hell, even the West coast 1994 team would've thrashed the 89 Hawthorn side. West coast completely prioritised defence under Mick Malthouse.
People seem to forget that Hawthorn made the finals between 1990-1994. West coast made those 80s players look silly...

 

[Osho]

Outrageous flirting!

I'm shocking, I know!

 

[Bungeye]

So too did Jeans.

Mew, Langford, Ayres, Collins, Greene were just as good as Jakovich, McIntosh, Worsfold, McKenna & Brennan.

Only Carlton of the 90's could rival such talented backmen as they had the likes of Silvagni, Dean, Sexton, Hannah, McKay & Christou which is a ridiculously solid back six if you compare it to any modern day back line.

Nah West coast revolutionised team defence. They only conceded 1500 points against in 1991. That was far superior to what Hawthorn was capable of at the time.

Unfortunately, they didn't win when it counted.

 

[My Tilly]

Nah West coast revolutionised team defence. They only conceded 1500 points against in 1991. That was far superior to what Hawthorn was capable of at the time.

Unfortunately, they didn't win when it counted.

I don't disagree with you in regards to West Coast's defense becoming a precursor of what was to follow but Hawthorn could beat anyone in a shoot-out and still fall back on it's defense to ice the game in the final quarter. The best of both world's. Very similar to Hawthorn in recent times when they acquired Brian Lake from the bulldogs.

West Coast took the 'tag' to another level in the 90's. Often assigning a designated player (none better than Worsfold) to the opposition's best players.

 

[Bungeye]

I don't disagree with you in regards to West Coast's defense becoming a precursor of what was to follow but Hawthorn could beat anyone in a shoot-out and still fall back on it's defense to ice the game in the final quarter. The best of both world's. Very similar to Hawthorn in recent times when they acquired Brian Lake from the bulldogs.

West Coast took the 'tag' to another level in the 90's. Often assigning a designated player (none better than Worsfold) to the opposition's best players.

Yea I just find it interesting that their defence stood out in a time where high scoring was the norm. I thought Hawthorn were still a good side circa 1992-94. The merger talks were a total overraction to their slide down the ladder in 1995. Lmao

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Dunstall walked into the greatest team of the 80's early 90's.

The matches in which he kicked a handful of goals . . . Hawthorn won every grand final by 8+ goals.

Put Scott Cummings at full forward and he would have managed just as many goals in those games.

He kicked 4 on a bloke called Tim Darcy!
Yes, Tim Darcy.

He was brilliant but again, Dunstall had the luxury of playing in one of the greatest teams of all time.
He never came in and turned a clubs fortunes around like Wayne Carey did.



Hawthorn finished 5th, 4th, 6th from 1992-1994.
They may have lost the 'dream team', but they still has some pretty damn good footballers.

His goals in grand finals are underappreciated for a valid reason, Hawthorn smashed all and sundry in the big dance. Most full forwards of that era would be kicking bags of goals if they were winning by 10 goals.

Dermott Brereton is the bloke who is underappreciated as time goes by. His overall value to the team was more substantial than Dunstall's.
Big game player too. When matches needed to be turned, it was he who clunked the pivotal marks and protected his forwards with his dominance & aura on the field.

Even Moncrief booted over 600 goals playing in that Hawthorn team!
They were a bloody powerhouse in the late 70's to early 90's.

Wow, I almost don't know how to react to this view - not only in it being a quite outlandish take (that no-one is agreeing with) or the fact that I tend to agree with most of your views on footy.

I suppose firstly, the idea that Dunstall was just a lucky passenger or the cherry on top of an all time team and any decent full forward could have done what he did is a galling view to me. Plenty of people view the 88-89 Hawks as one of, if not the, greatest teams of all time - we can agree on that part. However, of that team of greats, Dunstall was THE best player in that all time team (which was pretty much consensus at the time). Hell, he rightfully won the best and fairest quite comfortably in both 1988 AND 1989. He also won the Coleman both years and was one of the few Hawks selected to the team of the year both years. He also finished top 3 in the Brownlow both years. Hell, in both '88 and '89, he kicked over 50 more goals (in each season) than anyone else in the entire comp! (and 100 more goals than the next best Hawk!). He was the STAR of that team, more than any other (he even won the Simpson and Whitten medals as the best player in the SOO matches too!).

Then when the team dropped away, Dunstall got BETTER!. I know you spoke of Hawthorn still being good from 92 on, etc but take a closer look. In '92, Hawthorn won 14 games for the year. In 93, 13 games and the same in '94.They were a middling team absolutely carried by Dunstall. Don't believe me? Take '92 for example. He wasn't just Hawthorn's best player (by a mile), he was the best in the comp. He kicked 145 goals, won the Coleman, won the MVP, swept all the media awards and was absolutely robbed in the Brownlow (finishing 2nd). Tony Lockett was the only player within 62 goals of Dunstall's tally (and no Hawthorn player within 105). In fact, if you go through the Hawthorn games that season and replace Dunstall with a 'normal, decent' full forward - let's use your example of Scotty Cummings who averaged 2.7 goals/game across his career - so replace Dunstall with 3 goals per game every game from someone like Scott. Hawthorn go from 5th to 5th last. 1993 is even worse, Hawthorn go from 4th to 3rd last! That team, whilst still having a few decent players, were absolutely being carried by one of the all time greats at his peak.

For example, in 1992 against your mob. Geelong were a very good team at the time and better than Hawthorn. In the first encounter, Geelong led by 5 goals at half time but had their lead eroded and lost in a tight tussle by 20 points. Dunstall had 18 possessions, took 10 marks and kicked 12 goals! He'd rotated through 3 opponents, was then double and triple teamed and still won the Hawks the game in the last. In the second encounter, it was a similar story, Hawthorn won by just 19 points, whilst Dunstall kicked 9 goals! Hawthorn win neither of those games with even a good full forward, rather than an all timer. If you take a close look through those mid 90's seasons, you'll see many games that tell the same story.

Not only that, but between '92-'94, Hawthorn had a 62% win percentage when Dunstall was playing and a 25% win percentage when he wasn't!!

Do you really think it's a coincidence that every time Dunstall played close to a full season (i.e. 19+ games) in the 90's, he kicked 100+ goals and Hawthorn made finals ('92, '93, '94, '96). Every year he missed a chunk of games through injury, Hawthorn finished bottom 4 ('95, '97, '98). Even in his 30's with multiple knee recos, smashed cheekbone, broken collarbone, etc - he was still carrying the Hawks, both off the field as captain (including through the merger) and on the field, where he still averaged over 4 goals a game, even in bottom teams. Hell, even his final season, off a knee reco (and later a broken collarbone), at 34, he still kicked 54 goals in just 13 games for a team that finished bottom 4.

It's a complete furphy that he relied on a dominant team to be as good as he was or that he couldn't or didn't perform just as well in both middling and struggling teams.

There's good reason that people like Wayne Carey and Tony Lockett both rate him as the best player they've ever seen and every top20/top50 list of all time (or last 50 years) always has Dunstall in the top 6 or so.

 

[My Tilly]

There's good reason that people like Wayne Carey and Tony Lockett both rate him as the best player they've ever seen

And you realize Carey rated Ablett Sr as the 11th best player he had ever seen?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

And you realize Carey rated Ablett Sr as the 11th best player he had ever seen?

That's surprisingly low but certainly doesn't negate everything I said.

Besides, Ablett Snr at 11 is only 5-10 spots lower than most have him but the way you've described Dunstall would have him ranked 50-100+ spots lower than everyone has him.

I chose Lockett and Carey in particular as you'd assume they have a pretty good grasp of what it takes to be an all time great key forward.

But I've never seen a list from any football analyst that doesn't rate Dunstall amongst the top 10 or so players of all time.

I remember the AFL released a book to celebrate 150 years of Aussie football and they had a go at the 50 greatest players of all time. They had Dunstall at 4 (behind Carey, Matthews and Ablett Snr).

A few years ago, a bunch of coaches, former players and footy analysts/writers (Mick Malthouse, Dermott Brereton, David King, etc, etc) all did their top 25 of the last 50 years and they out together a combined list based on everyone's rankings. In that, Dunstall was rated the 6th best player of the last 50 years.

Recently, every man and his dog has been doing best of lists - Matthew Lloyd recently did a top 30 of "his time around the game" and Kane Cornes did an AFL era top 10, etc (they both had Dunstall top 6). I think 7th all time is the lowest I've seen him ranked in anyone's list.

I think if everyone else sees something differently, this might be one of the (few) times you might need to reconsider your view (I've certainly had to reconsider my view on certain players the more I've watched/listened/dug into things).

 

[My Tilly]

That's surprisingly low but certainly doesn't negate everything I said.

Besides, Ablett Snr at 11 is only 5-10 spots lower than most have him but the way you've described Dunstall would have him ranked 50-100+ spots lower than everyone has him.

I chose Lockett and Carey in particular as you'd assume they have a pretty good grasp of what it takes to be an all time great key forward.

But I've never seen a list from any football analyst that doesn't rate Dunstall amongst the top 10 or so players of all time.

I remember the AFL released a book to celebrate 150 years of Aussie football and they had a go at the 50 greatest players of all time. They had Dunstall at 4 (behind Carey, Matthews and Ablett Snr).

A few years ago, a bunch of coaches, former players and footy analysts/writers (Mick Malthouse, Dermott Brereton, David King, etc, etc) all did their top 25 of the last 50 years and they out together a combined list based on everyone's rankings. In that, Dunstall was rated the 6th best player of the last 50 years.

Recently, every man and his dog has been doing best of lists - Matthew Lloyd recently did a top 30 of "his time around the game" and Kane Cornes did an AFL era top 10, etc (they both had Dunstall top 6). I think 7th all time is the lowest I've seen him ranked in anyone's list.

I think if everyone else sees something differently, this might be one of the (few) times you might need to reconsider your view (I've certainly had to reconsider my view on certain players the more I've watched/listened/dug into things).

Sorry but I certainly don't need to reconsider anything. Dunstall is one of the greatest forwards to have ever play the game.
I'd have him 10th all time.

 

[Lingsface]

Sorry but I certainly don't need to reconsider anything. Dunstall is one of the greatest forwards to have ever play the game.
I'd have him 10th all time.

Please name the other 9 ahead.

 

[Spook]

you know how strong the era was when the 1985 Reserves grand final team included Gary Ayres, Chris Mew, John Kennedy, Dermott Brereton, Michael McCarthy, Jason Dunstall, Michael Tuck, Peter Knights, Peter McKinnon, Gary Buckenara, and Rodney Eade.

 

[MasterSamurai]

**** Dunstall was good!! Could he be the most underrated all timer?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Who is better?

Dunstall vs Franklin
Breust vs Buckenarra
Stratton vs Langford
Hodge vs Ayers
Mitchell vs Platten
Smith vs Wallace
Lewis vs Eade
Roughead vs Brereton
Rioli vs Dipper
Birchall vs Tuck

Some weird set ups here.

It should have been Position v Position.

Lake v Langford, not Stratton.
Rioli v Morrisey, not Dipper.
Birchall v Kennedy Jnr, not Tuck.
Lewis v Dipper, not Eade.
Smith v Pritchard, not Wallace.
Stratton v Mew, not Langford.