”The Essendon fans are the real victims of this”

[DapperDon]

Actually I, and many others were saying this 3 years ago Doss. Not just today.

Completely missed his point right there.

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

No way, after reading their dribble the last couple years, they can cop it sweet.

 

[Doss]

Doss, read the Essendon board read bomberblitz, listen to the radio, read the comments pages of newspapers.

The 'nothing wrong' crowd is out-barking the 'yeah we did it' crowd by a large margin.

Maybe there are a lot of Essendon supporters out there that are somehow silent?

Blitz? Don't read it, ever. Talk back? Same, don't listen, ever. Newspaper comments? Again, don't bother. It's lowest common denominator peanut gallery guff.

In between the crazies on those sort of places and the ones who are prepared to vocalise that we did stuff up, there is indeed a large silent group. My feeling with them is generally that they will most likely go along with the dominant narrative that the media articulates. But that's only a guess.

My point was, this idea that we all sit here still pretending nothing was wrong is ridiculous. Yet some (not Wook, he's clarified that) still push that like it's fact.

 

[DapperDon]

And it still doesnt stop me or anyone else having an opinion on how i or others would respond under the same circumstances. And the closest example we have is how Carlton people responded to their clubs governance issues in 2002.

We also have other examples of how other clubs dealt with salary cap breaches.

The two are completely different circumstances and just can't be compared no matter what moral high ground you want to put yourself on.

 

[FootyGeek]

Blitz? Don't read it, ever. Talk back? Same, don't listen, ever. Newspaper comments? Again, don't bother. It's lowest common denominator peanut gallery guff.

In between the crazies on those sort of places and the ones who are prepared to vocalise that we did stuff up, there is indeed a large silent group. My feeling with them is generally that they will most likely go along with the dominant narrative that the media articulates. But that's only a guess.

My point was, this idea that we all sit here still pretending nothing was wrong is ridiculous. Yet some (not Wook, he's clarified that) still push that like it's fact.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Between twitter, facebook, forums, newspaper comments, talkback radio and everything else it is a very large sample size.

You might be right, the silent majority might just be sitting out there waiting and twiddling their thumbs until something else happens.

 

[The_Wookie]

We also have other examples of how other clubs dealt with salary cap breaches.

The two are completely different circumstances and just can't be compared no matter what moral high ground you want to put yourself on.

Ill compare them to whatever the hell I like. You want to hold your supporters out as some special breed of superhuman, thats your call. And since my club didnt conduct experimental and poorly documented procedures on our players, and our supporters didnt have to follow some mythical player from yesteryear through his judicial journey, and since our players didnt put themselves out there as infallible, I think Ill occupy the moral high ground quite happily, thanks.

 

[Doss]

And it still doesnt stop me or anyone else having an opinion on how i or others would respond under the same circumstances. And the closest example we have is how Carlton people responded to their clubs governance issues in 2002.

An opinion, yes. Not an ironclad certainty that your opinion is how it would have played out in reality. You'll never know, and hopefully you'll never have to know, because I'd never wish this sort of mess on any other supporter group.

The Carlton issue is different. When that story broke, it was basically "here we go, Carlton have committed these breaches and here is the fine". Unfortunately for Carlton fans, there was never any ambiguity around the fact that a grave error had been made. If, on February 5, 2013, a press conference had been called to announce that Essendon players had tested positive to a banned substance on the back of a club-sponsored programme, they'd be a good comparison.

We all know that's not what happened, however, and while those who said three years ago that they got a bad initial vibe from that 'I'm shocked to be sitting here' presser have been proven right, there was so much water- unclear, muddy and turbulent water- that had to go under the bridge that it really bears little practical comparison to Carlton's situation, as awful as that was for your supporter base at the time.

 

[DapperDon]

No I didnt, but Im certain Doss will correct me if I have. After all, what the **** would i know. Im not an Essendon supporter.

Correct, you're not.

No matter what you like to think, you can't possibly say what would go through your head if this was on the other foot. By all means feel free to jump up and down and claim superiority but you'll never truly know.

It's really as simple as that.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The fans are the true victims. Agreed.


Some of them don't have a voice, the ones we talk about in these pages unfortunately do, and they're the ones who are too pigheaded to actually read what their players and club have done in order to receive these penalties.

The ones who have quietly moved on, decided footy isn't for them anymore, who feel betrayed by the incompetence and spin of the club...they're the victims.

Not these mouthy toads getting about on social media who have not read the CAS findings, but instead chose to carry on about conspiracies, how unfair it all is and how there's "no evidence" and whatever else. They're not victims, just morons.

 

[The_Wookie]

Correct, you're not.

No matter what you like to think, you can't possibly say what would go through your head if this was on the other foot. By all means feel free to jump up and down and claim superiority but you'll never truly know.

It's really as simple as that.

How much of a stretch of an imagination do you honestly think it takes to imagine how you respond under the same circumstances? If my club had even delivered the internal report that switowski had, I would have been down at Princes Park calling for heads. But apparently it was cool to have an experimental and poorly documented program at the time, and none of us can know how we would respond. What utter crap.

it may not have happened to us, it doesnt mean we dont know how we wouldnt respond in the same situation.

 

[DapperDon]

Ill compare them to whatever the hell I like. You want to hold your supporters out as some special breed of superhuman, thats your call. And since my club didnt conduct experimental and poorly documented procedures on our players, and our supporters didnt have to follow some mythical player from yesteryear through his judicial journey, and since our players didnt put themselves out there as infallible, I think Ill occupy the moral high ground quite happily, thanks.

No need to get angry mate, just having a conversation.

You seem overly emotional about Essendon supporters so I'll leave it and let you fawn over yourself.

 

[The Prosecutor]

How much of a stretch of an imagination do you honestly think it takes to imagine how you respond under the same circumstances? If my club had even delivered the internal report that switowski had, I would have been down at Princes Park calling for heads. But apparently it was cool to have an experimental and poorly documented program at the time, and none of us can know how we would respond. What utter crap.

it may not have happened to us, it doesnt mean we dont know how we wouldnt respond in the same situation.

After being hounded for four months from every angle, the supporter base naturally had a siege mentality. You really don't know how you would react when considering report in context with the months previous to its release.

 

[The_Wookie]

No need to get angry mate, just having a conversation.

You seem overly emotional about Essendon supporters so I'll leave it and let you fawn over yourself.

Im neither emotional nor angry. Nor am I an Essendon supporter. Im not patronising either.

 

[The_Reaper]

No need to get angry mate, just having a conversation.

You seem overly emotional about Essendon supporters so I'll leave it and let you fawn over yourself.

I do think he's right that Essendon supporters did act a bit different to what other clubs would have and I think it comes down to Hird.

Essendon fans seem to hold (or held) him in a certain level beyond what other fanbases hold their own champions.

 

[The Prosecutor]

The fans are the true victims. Agreed.


Some of them don't have a voice, the ones we talk about in these pages unfortunately do, and they're the ones who are too pigheaded to actually read what their players and club have done in order to receive these penalties.

The ones who have quietly moved on, decided footy isn't for them anymore, who feel betrayed by the incompetence and spin of the club...they're the victims.

Not these mouthy toads getting about on social media who have not read the CAS findings, but instead chose to carry on about conspiracies, how unfair it all is and how there's "no evidence" and whatever else. They're not victims, just morons.

Of courses they're victims, for the most part, they're the fans who love footy just for the footy.

They don't obsess in the way the likes of which we do into reading every article and reading court documents, most of them only hear soundbites on the radio/news and see other comments on social media from the same community.

So what if they are a bit simple, doesn't make them any less a victim just because they don't understand the details of what occurred.

 

[DapperDon]

I do think he's right that Essendon supporters did act a bit different to what other clubs would have and I think it comes down to Hird.

Essendon fans seem to hold (or held) him in a certain level beyond what other fanbases hold their own champions.

Definitely without a doubt when It comes to Hird.

Not all of us though.

 

[The_Wookie]

After being hounded for four months from every angle, the supporter base naturally had a siege mentality. You really don't know how you would react when considering report in context with the months previous to its release.

The supporter base in general bought it from the word go. Go back and read the threads if you dont believe me. However you want to put it, the Essendon faithful in general toed the company line rtight up until yesterday at 7.30am. Apparently now theres some mysterious and widespread movement out there that changes all that now though.

 

[The Prosecutor]

I do think he's right that Essendon supporters did act a bit different to what other clubs would have and I think it comes down to Hird.

Essendon fans seem to hold (or held) him in a certain level beyond what other fanbases hold their own champions.

I mentioned similar circumstances previously, but realistically there really isn't that many comparisons for other clubs to draw upon as to what Hird is to modern Essendon.

With the siege mentality that occurred when this broke, eventually Essendon supporters had to draw battle lines somewhere and Hird was the face of the saga.

The more time has unfolded, the majority of Essendon supporters are now becoming more disenchanted with Hird.

I don't think any other supporter group would be any less defensive of the club, it's just a matter of where the battle lines are drawn. With Fremantle for instance, it might of been Matthew Pavlich for instance instead of Ross Lyon.

Ultimately, just have a look at the Dustin Martin thread as a good example of how Richmond supporters reacted to a scandal where the facts weren't clear. To think if Richmond supporters acted like that to Martin, what would they be like with something like this?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Of courses they're victims, for the most part, they're the fans who love footy just for the footy.

They don't obsess in the way the likes of which we do into reading every article and reading court documents, most of them only hear soundbites on the radio/news and see other comments on social media from the same community.

So what if they are a bit simple, doesn't make them any less a victim just because they don't understand the details of what occurred.

Sorry, but adults who want to continue to carry on about something they either don't understand or have shown no will to educate themselves about are morons to me, and I can't really see them as victims worthy of sympathy.

My twin nephews who love the bombers, but don't understand the cases and appeals or why everyone says the players took drugs, they're victims.

 

[DapperDon]

Sorry, but adults who want to continue to carry on about something they either don't understand or have shown no will to educate themselves about are morons to me, and I can't really see them as victims worthy of sympathy.

My twin nephews who love the bombers, but don't understand the cases and appeals or why everyone says the players took drugs, they're victims.

All supporters are victims. Doesn't matter what their level of understanding on the subject is.

 

[The Prosecutor]

Sorry, but adults who want to continue to carry on about something they either don't understand or have shown no will to educate themselves about are morons to me, and I can't really see them as victims worthy of sympathy.

Agree to disagree, ultimately, they just love their club and are hurting from actions beyond their control.

Is it ranting and inaccurate? Probably, but they ultimately just want to enjoy their footy for the fun of it and their club has let them down.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

All supporters are victims. Doesn't matter what their level of understanding on the subject is.

I think they are, but yes I have completely different levels of sympathy for them, depending on how much they understand in line with how much bleating they're doing.

If that makes sense.

I feel for those who understand completely, but have just had to sit and watch their club bumble it's way through the last 3 years.

 

[compact72]

Screw the victims, they are not victims.

Scum. They should be ashamed of themselves. There is one thing to dislike and have different opinions, but threats is just ridiculous, especially when somebody is just doing what their job requires them to do

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...n/news-story/4ed2b183d250ce2ba3c1d54a392b8531

Essendon guilty verdict: ASADA CEO Ben McDevitt’s hardest investigation

THE former crack policeman who delivered ASADA the most stunning doping sanctions in Australian history says he has never encountered more threats of danger and personal harm than in the time he worked on the Essendon drugs case.

Ben McDevitt, the hard-nosed former cop who oversaw Australia’s investigation into the Bali bombings, led Australia’s peace keeping mission in a war ravaged Solomon Islands and was part of dangerous police investigations into organised crime, says the Essendon case was one of the most challenging and hazardous job he has ever encountered.

“I have never been subject to anything like it,” he said. “There was a lot on the line but the attacks became very personal, there were threats on my life and a threat to blow up the ASADA building.

“The language in those threats was disgraceful. For people to take sport to that level, it was an eye opener but I just kept saying to myself ‘without fear or favour.’”

A former junior AFL and rugby union player, McDevitt came back from the brink to oversee the Court of Arbitration for Sport hearing against Essendon after a resounding loss in the Melbourne anti-drugs tribunal.

After that devastating blow, McDevitt was asked by many AFL heavies to “turn a blind eye”, to allow the sport to “get on with it” but he kept going back to what his brief was when he took the job — to pursue the difficult cases.

“I was absolutely convinced, despite the heavy loss in the Melbourne court, that we had a very strong case. I just didn’t believe it had been assessed properly in that jurisdiction.

”I knew the case was already there. The evidence was there. There were so many compelling facts here. IN fact, the case we argued was essentially the ASADA case from the tribunal. The evidence was just viewed in a very different light at the CAS.”

The decision to fast track the case and to go straight to the CAS, the world’s leading arbitrator of drugs in sport cases, was made after consultation with ASADA and WADA lawyers. McDevitt was prodded by the delusional response out of Melbourne from the AFL, Essendon and the players who genuinely believed the case was closed.

He was even more motivated by what he calls the cheap shots, the rumour and innuendo which did took little of the evidence into account.

“Some people produced their books, put them on the shelves without bothering to wait for the final chapter,” he said. “The truth was finally revealed in that last chapter. I was bound by strict rules of what I could and couldn’t say but those rules didn’t apply to any of our critics.”

McDevitt has been particularly disappointed by player representatives and certain members of the media who continue to deny the players did anything wrong.

“When you see how many testing missions were conducted by ASADA, when not a single player ever queried the regime or asked a question about a banned substance, it is disappointing to hear them feign ignorance,” he said.

”Why didn’t they declare it at those tests? The continual denial of the facts is doing a huge disservice to all involved. It is not helping Australia’s sporting reputation that the players are seen as victims here.”

McDevitt’s challenge now is to ensure the AFL does not break away from the WADA code, a move he sees as absolutely reprehensible for fans, players and all Australians who support fairness in sport.

The result would be a free-for-all, a code with its own limited doping rules and no body overseeing the footballers. IN other words, an open invitation to cheat.

“Team sport is no different from individual sport,” he said. “All athletes have a responsibility under the code to stay clean. Why is it different if 34 are injecting than just one? It is probably just worse to be honest. There are already many team sports at the Olympic level that comply with the WADA code.”

The target of creating clean, fair, sport is McDevitt’s aim, no matter what flak he cops on the way through. He shrugs off the Elliot Ness tag but there is no doubt that, without him, the truth may never have been revealed.

“ASADA is not the enemy. The AFL Players Association, the AFL themselves and the fans must look at the judgement, read it carefully and see that so much can be done to fix the problems. That has to be a joint project for us with the AFL so something like this dark chapter can never, ever happen again.”

 

[sherb]

And it still doesnt stop me or anyone else having an opinion on how i or others would respond under the same circumstances. And the closest example we have is how Carlton people responded to their clubs governance issues in 2002.

I have to agree with you on this.

Whilst the two situations may not be identical, they do have a common thread - in both instances the club, via people within it, embarked on a course of action which put the club in a world of hurt and landed it squarely in a big steaming pile of doggy doo.

I know precisely what I would have done if this had happened at my club. I would have been going at them, asking what the hell was going on, very early in the piece. Not deflecting the blame all over the shop from ASADA to various parts of the media and all manner of people.

And the "legality" of the substances wouldn't have prevented me from doing this. The fact that my club went about a highly questionable "supplements" programme, injecting substances it couldn't specify into the players would have been more than enough for me.

I have held this view from very early on, so it isn't hindsight. I've learnt that club management needs to be held to account by its members. Blind loyalty and faith can be very dangerous and counter-productive. As I believe many Dons' supporters have found out.

 

[scribbs]

Why do you think the fifteenth smoking gun in the gun rack is the one that stunk enough to be noticed?

The AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal clearly had the question framed in such a way that there could be no guilty verdict. The reaction by the AFL and the AFLPA yesterday confirmed that they just wanted it swept under the carpet.

The AFL is not interested in keeping drug cheats out of the AFL. They are only interested in making people think they're doing something.

Seeing from afar in pommie land I agree with this statement. While it's not directly involved with this saga the 3 strikes rule and self reporting issue on illicit drugs does come across as a cop out. Never understood AFL's stance, shades of MLB's steroid era in some regards until they cleaned up. Head's buried in the sand.