Strategy 2016 Backline

[Nest of Cats]

Pls add D Lang to the poll. Class player, He has all the attributes to be a great small defender a la R Laird. Worth grooming in the back line.

 

[Deep North]

Alright, I'll throw in a smokey. I reckon Sam Menagola will be very hard to keep out of this team for long and will end up being the running/attacking/defender we've been looking for since Wojo. Not as quick and I've only seen him once (late night ABC2 viewing), but this bloke has adventure and timing to burn. Hits packs hard, fit as f... and knows the game well. Once they lock him in Kolo, Thurlow, Harry, Hendo, Mackie and Enright, with Gurthrie and Blitz pitch hitting, you've got a very dynamic backline.

 

[Cursed Cat]

I have a couple of problems with Bews in his current output. He's a great stopper but his rebound game leaves too much to be desired at this stage. When you provide little attacking value it frees up your opponent to play unaccountable football since they know you won't hurt them should they be out of position on a turnover. Bews doesn't get involved in our attacks enough and when he does he's often to questionable effectiveness since his skills are average at best especially when he running at pace which is a shame given that he is deceptively fast for his size.

Bartel creates more then on the offense that more then covers for any additional weakness in defending he conceeds when compared to Bews

I see what you're saying for sure and I partially addressed that aspect of Bews' game as a deficiency in my other post (as well as the stuff about his sometimes shady disposal).
And I'm glad to see you do acknowledge his actual defensive ability when it comes to locking down on an opponent, otherwise there wouldn't be much to discuss!

In your direct comparison with Bartel though, I think the damage a good small forward can inflict on the scoreboard outweighs any concerns of that forward's level of accountability.
I'd rather the security of a tight-checking Bews to play on, for example, Lindsay Thomas, than roll the dice in hope that Jimmy's possessions going the other way will ultimately contribute more than very-measurable goals-on-the-board.

I'd argue the merits of Bartel's neat, but hardly damaging, disposal in recent times, too - he's no Motlop/Duncan on the turnover, that's for sure; in fact if we were going down that route I'd probably prefer to play Motlop on Thomas.
Bartel's usual M.O. with ball in hand is to look, look, look then ultimately chip the ball inboard to a safe option. He's not as incisive with his disposal as he once was, in my opinion. At least Motlop would be able to take off and gain us 75 meters with a run and kick.

Also, with regards to shoddy disposal, Bartel's been responsible for some of the team's more egregious defensive clangers in recent times; some howlers. Bews may shank it on the 'fast break', but I can rarely recall him turning it over in the backline and coughing up a goal, unlike Jim.
Bartel has Bews well covered for clangers-per-game ..

Ultimately a good backline needs balance; they can't all be peeling off and looking to provide run and rebound.
And they can't all be dour, completely opponent-focused players either.
Without Lonergan (and in recent times, also Rivers) to lock down a key forward, Harry's hands can be too full to be flying for intercept marks.

You'd hope your team's defenders can have a blend of both defensive and attacking capabilities, but it can be a tricky balance to strike - and imo the small defender's role has been the one position where even the best Geelong team's of recent years have been a bit lacking; open to exploitation.

I acknowledge Bews' limitations (which, as I mentioned, he would be quite aware of, and usually circumnavigates), but by the same token I believe there are games throughout a season when a guy like him is very much needed.

I didn't actually pick him in the poll, btw, as one of my backline 6, but he would definitely be my 7th man and the first one to come in to play on Thomas, Ballantyne, maybe even Bruest; that kind of player.

 

[David the Cat]

Well Guthrie is going to be there, thats clear.......and Henderson will play.... Enright and Taylor are locks.....Thurlow has to be picked....so its Kolo or Lonergan....

Enright Lonergan Henderson
Thurlow Taylor Guthrie

Kolo maybe on the bench for rotation....versatile enough to do that role...

Put your house on it.

 

[catman54]

Will be interesting to see how Ruggles comes alone, he is a very hard worker and a natural footballer ( small defender).

 

[Cursed Cat]

Well Guthrie is going to be there, thats clear.......and Henderson will play.... Enright and Taylor are locks.....Thurlow has to be picked....so its Kolo or Lonergan....

Enright Lonergan Henderson
Thurlow Taylor Guthrie

Kolo maybe on the bench for rotation....versatile enough to do that role...

Put your house on it.

what makes you say that DtC?
has the MC made some kind of statement to that effect?

 

[Partridge]

what makes you say that DtC?
has the MC made some kind of statement to that effect?

Agreed, I don't think it's clear at all.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Agreed, I don't think it's clear at all.

Guthrie's certainly capable of playing there, but I think the MC would be pretty encouraged by Guthrie's progress as a mid?
Unless David the Cat has some kind of quote/statement to the contrary ..

My guess, he might divide his time between the two roles, but if I were a betting man I'd put my money on the Ice Cream Man spending most of his time around the middle of the ground. Reduced rotations means players will need to have a couple of strings to their guitars, and Guthrie will be no different to most in that regard.
Personally, I'd like to see him drifting in from a wing; we don't need him getting banged up in the clinches too much, he has too much pace and skill (and not quite big enough of a body) to require him right in the thick of it; we have better/more appropriate options there - but that's just my opinion ..

 

[you pick one]

Right now the poll has four talls, a tallish mid and Enright as the leading six. Lol.

Yep can not happen,poll means jack shit,good thread but.

 

[Partridge]

Guthrie's certainly capable of playing there, but I think the MC would be pretty encouraged by Guthrie's progress as a mid?
Unless David the Cat has some kind of quote/statement to the contrary ..

Not only that, but for the start of the season we may be two midfielders down. Not sure the solution there is to move one of our best young midfielders to the backline.

 

[you pick one]

Three things will determine Geelong's fortunes more than most in 2016, one the effectiveness of Smith,Stanley and Vardy in the ruck and around the ground and two, some line breaking pace off half back with three a lock down player to take the best small forward.Who brings that to the side should be the question here when you pick your back 6 or 7.
A good tall or two might have to miss out.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Not only that, but for the start of the season we may be two midfielders down. Not sure the solution there is to move one of our best young midfielders to the backline.

good point.

 

[nohairandfair]

Guthrie's certainly capable of playing there, but I think the MC would be pretty encouraged by Guthrie's progress as a mid?
Unless David the Cat has some kind of quote/statement to the contrary ..

My guess, he might divide his time between the two roles, but if I were a betting man I'd put my money on the Ice Cream Man spending most of his time around the middle of the ground. Reduced rotations means players will need to have a couple of strings to their guitars, and Guthrie will be no different to most in that regard.
Personally, I'd like to see him drifting in from a wing; we don't need him getting banged up in the clinches too much, he has too much pace and skill (and not quite big enough of a body) to require him right in the thick of it; we have better/more appropriate options there - but that's just my opinion ..

In Guthrie's interview a few days back he stated that with more depth added to the midfield with the arrival of Dangerfield and Selwood he will be mixing it up between defence and midfield in 2016. http://www.geelongcats.com.au/video/2015-12-14/2016-preseason-cameron-guthrie

 

[David the Cat]

I relied on the interview with Guthrie on the Cats website that indicated he was likely to play, at least in part, in defense, as well as time in the midfield....and suggested that his pre-season was predicated on that..given that Danger, Selwood and Blicavs/Scooter/GH-S might line up at center bounces it makes sense...its not to say he won't spend any time in midfield....

McNicol put to him that he might take on the "James Kelly role" in defense with time in the middle and his answer indicated strongly that was more then likely.....

He will line up on half back....bookmark it.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Three things will determine Geelong's fortunes more than most in 2016, one the effectiveness of Smith,Stanley and Vardy in the ruck and around the ground and two, some line breaking pace off half back with three a lock down player to take the best small forward.Who brings that to the side should be the question here when you pick your back 6 or 7.
A good tall or two might have to miss out.

Do you think Bews is capable of playing a role to that end YPO?

also, agree that we probably have a surplus of talls!

 

[David the Cat]

Agreed, I don't think it's clear at all.

you're usually good at reading between the lines....its clear from his interview...

I am not saying I fully agree, but it looks very likely he will play a role in defense....hence my selection of him off half back.

 

[Cursed Cat]

I relied on the interview with Guthrie on the Cats website that indicated he was likely to play, at least in part, in defense, as well as time in the midfield....and that his pre-season was predicated on that..

McNicol put to him that he might take on the "James Kelly role" in defense with time in the middle and his answer indicated strongly that was more then likely.....

He will line up on half back....bookmark it.

I would have assumed this anyway, given the addition of Dangerfield and another ruckman (releasing Blicavs to play pretty much predominantly as a midfielder), along with the reduced rotations.

But I still think Guthrie will play most of his football along the center line.
I do like Guthrie as a defender; I wish we had two (or three) of him; probably my favourite current player.
No need to bookmark anything; I'm not all that vehement on the issue ..

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Looks like we'll have to fight the good fight ourselves Stan The Caddy not many agree with us with Guthrie

 

[David the Cat]

No need to bookmark anything; I'm not all that vehement on the issue ..

Ssssshhh....neither am I, but its off season...good time to stir a few pots.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Ssssshhh....neither am I, but its off season...good time to stir a few pots.

it's funny how off-season does that; I've definitely noticed a marked increase in my likelihood of getting into stupid football-related arguments on BF in years gone by - I'm pretty conscious of that tendency now; it's a long season, in fact it never really ends - so I save my rage for the important, in-season stuff

 

[Lana]

I see what you're saying for sure and I partially addressed that aspect of Bews' game as a deficiency in my other post (as well as the stuff about his sometimes shady disposal).
And I'm glad to see you do acknowledge his actual defensive ability when it comes to locking down on an opponent, otherwise there wouldn't be much to discuss!

In your direct comparison with Bartel though, I think the damage a good small forward can inflict on the scoreboard outweighs any concerns of that forward's level of accountability.
I'd rather the security of a tight-checking Bews to play on, for example, Lindsay Thomas, than roll the dice in hope that Jimmy's possessions going the other way will ultimately contribute more than very-measurable goals-on-the-board.

A good small forward will still do damage on Bews. How I picture the trade off on a typical week
Bews's opponents will score between 1-3 goals, Bews will get 12 disposals and have 2-4 score involvements
Bartel's opponents will score between 1-4 goals, Bartel will get 25 disposals and have 3-8 score involvements

I'm of the opinion that having an additional creative player in the team makes it even easier for our other creative players to "get of the leash".

I'd argue the merits of Bartel's neat, but hardly damaging, disposal in recent times, too - he's no Motlop/Duncan on the turnover, that's for sure; in fact if we were going down that route I'd probably prefer to play Motlop on Thomas.
Bartel's usual M.O. with ball in hand is to look, look, look then ultimately chip the ball inboard to a safe option. He's not as incisive with his disposal as he once was, in my opinion. At least Motlop would be able to take off and gain us 75 meters with a run and kick.

Also, with regards to shoddy disposal, Bartel's been responsible for some of the team's more egregious defensive clangers in recent times; some howlers. Bews may shank it on the 'fast break', but I can rarely recall him turning it over in the backline and coughing up a goal, unlike Jim.
Bartel has Bews well covered for clangers-per-game ..

I see where you coming from but I just don't agree. Like all defenders you could make a decently sized video of Bews stuff ups. It is the a nature of the game goals will be scored, miss kicks happen, Bartels are more memorable since we expect more from him given his achievements.

Ultimately a good backline needs balance; they can't all be peeling off and looking to provide run and rebound.
And they can't all be dour, completely opponent-focused players either.
Without Lonergan (and in recent times, also Rivers) to lock down a key forward, Harry's hands can be too full to be flying for intercept marks.

You'd hope your team's defenders can have a blend of both defensive and attacking capabilities, but it can be a tricky balance to strike - and imo the small defender's role has been the one position where even the best Geelong team's of recent years have been a bit lacking; open to exploitation.

I acknowledge Bews' limitations (which, as I mentioned, he would be quite aware of, and usually circumnavigates), but by the same token I believe there are games throughout a season when a guy like him is very much needed.

I didn't actually pick him in the poll, btw, as one of my backline 6, but he would definitely be my 7th man and the first one to come in to play on Thomas, Ballantyne, maybe even Bruest; that kind of player.

I agree there is a time and place for Bews I just have him behind Bartel in my rankings

 

[Lana]

Not only that, but for the start of the season we may be two midfielders down. Not sure the solution there is to move one of our best young midfielders to the backline.

The question is what is a bigger incremental loss. For example having GHS play in the middle or Bews in defense, and the the difference of effectiveness of Guthrie in defense compare to when he plays in the middle. Its not an easy question to answer,

 

[Cursed Cat]

A good small forward will still do damage on Bews. How I picture the trade off on a typical week
Bews's opponents will score between 1-3 goals, Bews will get 12 disposals and have 2-4 score involvements
Bartel's opponents will score between 1-4 goals, Bartel will get 25 disposals and have 3-8 score involvements

That's all pretty broad stats-wise, with a lot of room to move, e.g. I'd take Bews restricting his opponent to 1 goal and getting himself 12 disposals/3 score involvements over Bartel giving up 5 goals and having 3 score involvements (i.e. best-case scenario for Bews and worst-case for Bartel, as per your parameters) - the bolded is the bit I will focus on; I think a good small forward will do significantly less damage on Bews - enough of a discrepancy for me to bother replying again (I don't mean that disrespectfully; rather that I am usually content to make my point and leave it at that rather than expanding on it endlessly).

Apart from generally conceding fewer goals, Bews is more likely to be on his opponent's hammer; Bartel, being a looser (and slower) type, will not only generally cough up a goal or so more due to a lack of 'closing speed' (along with a goal or so more due to turnovers, but I'll get back to that) but he is also less likely to exert meaningful pressure on his direct opponent when they have possession, leading to cleaner disposals and more score involvements for that opponent.

To be fair, I think we're both being pretty speculative here and short of an exhaustive study I don't think one of us will be able to prove the other wrong on the issue (ever) .. Even if I were able to find stats on Bews vs Bartel's score involvements (of which I have no doubt Bartel would be in front), there's little way of measuring the score involvements of their opponents short of a full review. And I don't care about making my point that much to go researching! .

I suppose my point here is; Bartel may contribute to more score involvements (and again, going back to the level of creativity and incisiveness in his disposal, some of those 'involvements' would be quite minimal - sometimes a chain doesn't need a lot of links to be strong, as it were) but how many score involvements is he conceding going the other way?

I'm of the opinion that having an additional creative player in the team makes it even easier for our other creative players to "get of the leash".

By that token, the opposite must also be true, having an additional negating player must make it harder for the opposition's creative players to get off the leash.

Again, this ultimately comes down to balance - to my mind Thurlow, Enright and Mackie are more than capable of generating attack from defense; too much of a good thing can lead to a tipping point where not enough mind is being paid to opposition forwards (see: Lonergan/Rivers/Taylor for a good example of a balanced defensive set-up, albeit with key position types); if you have a good lock-down defender or two, then it gives the others a bit more leeway with regards to match-ups and peeling off.

I see where you coming from but I just don't agree. Like all defenders you could make a decently sized video of Bews stuff ups. It is the a nature of the game goals will be scored, miss kicks happen, Bartels are more memorable since we expect more from him given his achievements.

This I disagree with a bit more strongly; I disagree with your assertion that Bartel's critical errors are more 'memorable' for the reason you stated; how much is a Billie Smedts turnover magnified for the opposite reason?

If anything I think the opposite is true; we're more likely to forgive Jimmy's errors because of his past deeds.
If Bews was regularly coughing up goals due to egregious stuff-ups he wouldn't get a look-in. I actually do not think that you could make a decent-sized video of Bews' stuff-ups that directly lead to goals; if anything I'd say that most of his more glaring errors have come when he's been running at pace (which you alluded to) and trying to be a more attacking player. Some of these errors would no doubt have eventually led to opposition scores no doubt; others we would have tidied up - but some of Bartel's errors in defense have basically been goal assists to the opposition.

I agree there is a time and place for Bews I just have him behind Bartel in my rankings

That is of course fair enough!
Obviously we each have a difference in philosophy on the matter and that doesn't bother me in the slightest; ultimately our respective philosophies won't make any difference to the way things actually pan out - and I suspect that the club itself won't commit wholly to either philosophy, either; they will mix and match and chop and change.
If an opposition team doesn't actually have a damaging small forward, then I'm happy enough for Bews to miss out.
If an opposition team does have a damaging small forward then I'd prefer that Bartel wasn't their direct opponent.

 

[Seeds]

Looks like we'll have to fight the good fight ourselves Stan The Caddy not many agree with us with Guthrie

When a young player has a dominant break out 12 weeks like Guthrie did in the second half of the season you tend not to play them in a new position the next season.

 

[catempire]

When a young player has a dominant break out 12 weeks like Guthrie did in the second half of the season you tend not to play them in a new position the next season.

One would hope. It's a bit of a worry to me that he's apparently been told otherwise.

If they are convinced it has to happen then it has to be a running and creative half back, not wasted as a lock-down small defender.