Play Nice 2022 Non AFL Crowds/Ratings/Finance/Development thread

[Kwality]

There are two factors at play.
1. The total income divided by the number of participants. Thus single participant sports are paid more but there's very few of them.
2. The total for the relevant market. the U.S.A. is a huge market so elite American sports people are paid (generally) more.

Obviously AFL and NRL players are paid very well considering the size of the Australian market
and the "ease" of of becoming a participant.
i.e. If you want a decent chance of making some decent money then the percentage play are those leagues.
You certainly can earn more somewhere else but you greatly lessen your chances .

Alex Carey is a good example:

Alex Carey (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Alex Tyson Carey (born 27 August 1991) is an Australian international cricketer. Formerly an Australian rules footballer, he is currently a wicket-keeper who plays for the Australian national team in all formats. In domestic cricket, he plays for South Australia and Adelaide Strikers.[2] He was the captain of the Greater Western Sydney Giants in 2010, but when they joined the Australian Football League in 2012, he was left out of the squad and returned to his home state of South Australia, where he began to play domestic cricket.

Carey turned down a rookie contract offer from the South Australian Cricket Association and moved to Sydney in 2010 to join the Australian Football League's (AFL) new expansion club, the Greater Western Sydney Giants,[5]'

His cricket career took a few seasons to takeoff:
'went back into grade cricket with the Glenelg Cricket Club for the 2012–13 season.'
'He played three Shield matches and averaged only 10.1 in six batting innings as he was dropped from the side'.

'Carey was given a rookie contract with South Australia for the 2013–14 season, though he didn't play a game for the state team during the season. After his failures as a top-order batsman, he became a wicket-keeper and moved down the batting order. This resulted in him being able to play several matches for South Australia in the Futures League.[5]
His breakout season came in 2015–16**, when he scored 822 runs at an average of 90.22 in 10 matches for Glenelg, including big scores of 195 against Adelaide and 151 against West Torrens.[5][6]'
'His improvement resulted in his inclusion in Australia's National Performance Squad in the 2017 off-season,[12] and he was also named as the sole wicket-keeper in the Australia A squad which was meant to tour South Africa for the 2017 South Africa Team Tri-Series.'

Fast forward to today & he has more in him of international cricket.


How do those drafted by AFL footy clubs compare with Carey.

*'For the 2016–17 season, Carey was given his first senior contract with South Australia.[9]

 

[RedV3x]

How do those drafted by AFL footy clubs compare with Carey.

Well I presume most like playing AFL and only a few would have an inclination for playing cricket.
The days of crossover sports has long diminished because of the necessity to choose a pathway early in life.
Sports people do have a propensity to be proficient across multiple sports but that translate into being at a professional level.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Alex Carey is a good example:

Alex Carey (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Alex Tyson Carey (born 27 August 1991) is an Australian international cricketer. Formerly an Australian rules footballer, he is currently a wicket-keeper who plays for the Australian national team in all formats. In domestic cricket, he plays for South Australia and Adelaide Strikers.[2] He was the captain of the Greater Western Sydney Giants in 2010, but when they joined the Australian Football League in 2012, he was left out of the squad and returned to his home state of South Australia, where he began to play domestic cricket.

Carey turned down a rookie contract offer from the South Australian Cricket Association and moved to Sydney in 2010 to join the Australian Football League's (AFL) new expansion club, the Greater Western Sydney Giants,[5]'

His cricket career took a few seasons to takeoff:
'went back into grade cricket with the Glenelg Cricket Club for the 2012–13 season.'
'He played three Shield matches and averaged only 10.1 in six batting innings as he was dropped from the side'.

'Carey was given a rookie contract with South Australia for the 2013–14 season, though he didn't play a game for the state team during the season. After his failures as a top-order batsman, he became a wicket-keeper and moved down the batting order. This resulted in him being able to play several matches for South Australia in the Futures League.[5]
His breakout season came in 2015–16**, when he scored 822 runs at an average of 90.22 in 10 matches for Glenelg, including big scores of 195 against Adelaide and 151 against West Torrens.[5][6]'
'His improvement resulted in his inclusion in Australia's National Performance Squad in the 2017 off-season,[12] and he was also named as the sole wicket-keeper in the Australia A squad which was meant to tour South Africa for the 2017 South Africa Team Tri-Series.'

Fast forward to today & he has more in him of international cricket.


How do those drafted by AFL footy clubs compare with Carey.

*'For the 2016–17 season, Carey was given his first senior contract with South Australia.[9]

You would have to be twice as talented at cricket then you would have to be at football to make a living. Football will always be the smart choice

 

[The Tilt]

Alex Carey is a good example:

Alex Carey (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Alex Tyson Carey (born 27 August 1991) is an Australian international cricketer. Formerly an Australian rules footballer, he is currently a wicket-keeper who plays for the Australian national team in all formats. In domestic cricket, he plays for South Australia and Adelaide Strikers.[2] He was the captain of the Greater Western Sydney Giants in 2010, but when they joined the Australian Football League in 2012, he was left out of the squad and returned to his home state of South Australia, where he began to play domestic cricket.

Carey turned down a rookie contract offer from the South Australian Cricket Association and moved to Sydney in 2010 to join the Australian Football League's (AFL) new expansion club, the Greater Western Sydney Giants,[5]'

His cricket career took a few seasons to takeoff:
'went back into grade cricket with the Glenelg Cricket Club for the 2012–13 season.'
'He played three Shield matches and averaged only 10.1 in six batting innings as he was dropped from the side'.

'Carey was given a rookie contract with South Australia for the 2013–14 season, though he didn't play a game for the state team during the season. After his failures as a top-order batsman, he became a wicket-keeper and moved down the batting order. This resulted in him being able to play several matches for South Australia in the Futures League.[5]
His breakout season came in 2015–16**, when he scored 822 runs at an average of 90.22 in 10 matches for Glenelg, including big scores of 195 against Adelaide and 151 against West Torrens.[5][6]'
'His improvement resulted in his inclusion in Australia's National Performance Squad in the 2017 off-season,[12] and he was also named as the sole wicket-keeper in the Australia A squad which was meant to tour South Africa for the 2017 South Africa Team Tri-Series.'

Fast forward to today & he has more in him of international cricket.


How do those drafted by AFL footy clubs compare with Carey.

*'For the 2016–17 season, Carey was given his first senior contract with South Australia.[9]

I wonder if Alex Keath has earned more through cricket or through football...

Alex Keath - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Professor Knowall]

Alex Carey only pursued his cricket career after the choice between AFL and cricket was taken from him. Just like Warnie, his first choice was AFL, but alas, like Warnie, he wasn’t good enough, being de-listed by GWS.

 

[The Educator]

One of the sillier comments provided previously was suggesting you are not comparing apples with apples when comparing money (domestic versus international). Money is about the only thing that lends itself to apples versus apples comparisons!

The reality is there is an enormous amount of money in the AFL which is why it has such an advantage in the competition for Australian sporting talent.

The main reason why the elite players in sports that happen to be played overseas earn more money is primarily because the sports themselves have far fewer players to pay.

The AFL provides only 28% of the games "proscribed revenues" to players which is still far more than any other sport's total player payments for Australians other than rugby league (though it is considerably more than that). Obviously there are a handful of bigger sporting markets (i.e. the US, 5 european countries and, very recently Indian cricket) but the bottom line is that Australia (read AFL particularly and NRL to a lessor extent) are global outliers in terms of the revenues.

The NFL is far wealthier than the NBA but the top NBA players earn more than the top NFL players.

If the AFL was an 12 team basketball competition that paid 50% of revenues in player payments, the top players would be earning 10s of millions. It wouldn't make the AFL any wealthier, just a handfull of players.

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[Rob]

One of the sillier comments provided previously was suggesting you are not comparing apples with apples when comparing money (domestic versus international). Money is about the only thing that lends itself to apples versus apples comparisons!

The reality is there is an enormous amount of money in the AFL which is why it has such an advantage in the competition for Australian sporting talent.

The main reason why the elite players in sports that happen to be played overseas earn more money is primarily because the sports themselves have far fewer players to pay.

The AFL provides only 28% of the games "proscribed revenues" to players which is still far more than any other sport's total player payments for Australians other than rugby league (though it is considerably more than that). Obviously there are a handful of bigger sporting markets (i.e. the US, 5 european countries and, very recently Indian cricket) but the bottom line is that Australia (read AFL particularly and NRL to a lessor extent) are global outliers in terms of the revenues.

The NFL is far wealthier than the NBA but the top NBA players earn more than the top NFL players.

If the AFL was an 12 team basketball competition that paid 50% of revenues in player payments, the top players would be earning 10s of millions. It wouldn't make the AFL any wealthier, just a handfull of players.

The revenue comparison is an apples vs oranges comparison as other overseas sporting leagues don't own a stadium and sell memberships like the AFL does. So the AFLs gross revenue is distorted in any comparison between leagues.

 

[Gigantor]

The very biggest sports leagues in the US and Europe generate massive TV deals.
But once you get to that next tier, the AFL $4.5 billion deal is certainly sitting in the mix.
Soccer people rave on about the J-League and MLS, but their TV deals are pissant compared to the AFL's newest deal.
Also, about a decade ago, I was amazed to learn that in the Spanish league, with Real and Barca doing their TV deals, the La Liga TV deal for the remaining clubs was a tiny fraction greater than the AFL's TV deal (similar story for the Serie A).

 

[jatz14]

IF they are good enough, & up to the challenge.
Team sports internationally tend to offer more scope, e.g soccer & basketball.

IF they are good enough, & up to the challenge.
Team sports internationally tend to offer more scope, e.g soccer & basketball.

I think you need to do some research on motivation. On lots of things really, but for other threads.

You get a lot more money being a formula one driver, but we are not going to lose any female footballers to formula one, not one. Not if they are paid 100 million, not if they have the talent.

For many reasons, First, by the time you get old enough that money is a motivating factor in your decision making, its already to late for most pro sports. 10 year olds dont get into motor racing because of pay packets of F1 drivers, and if your 16 - 18, and not already a top ranked junior driver, its to late. And you dont get to be a top ranked junior driver, and a draft worthy junior footy player at the same time.
Second, you might just not like motor sports. Money is a useless motivator in getting people to take up sports they aren't into.

We are not losing junior girls to soccer because of the pay deals of the Matildas, or whatever.

And I dont mean, not many, I mean none, zero, not one. Now, if there are any girls that are playing both sports at a fairly high level at 16- 18, then it may play a role in which they pursue, but as both sports become more professional at the high end, and the pathways become more streamlined, the number of players at the top of those pathways involved in both will drop to not many, and the girls entering at the bottom will not do so for money.

You seem confused by the cause and effect here.

You see popular sports paying lots of money, and think, money makes them popular, so when they make more money, they will attract more people. But being popular is what made those sports rich, not the other way around. Money will not attract more people to soccer, it never has.

 

[jatz14]

Alex Carey is a good example:

Alex Carey (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Alex Tyson Carey (born 27 August 1991) is an Australian international cricketer. Formerly an Australian rules footballer, he is currently a wicket-keeper who plays for the Australian national team in all formats. In domestic cricket, he plays for South Australia and Adelaide Strikers.[2] He was the captain of the Greater Western Sydney Giants in 2010, but when they joined the Australian Football League in 2012, he was left out of the squad and returned to his home state of South Australia, where he began to play domestic cricket.

Carey turned down a rookie contract offer from the South Australian Cricket Association and moved to Sydney in 2010 to join the Australian Football League's (AFL) new expansion club, the Greater Western Sydney Giants,[5]'

His cricket career took a few seasons to takeoff:
'went back into grade cricket with the Glenelg Cricket Club for the 2012–13 season.'
'He played three Shield matches and averaged only 10.1 in six batting innings as he was dropped from the side'.

'Carey was given a rookie contract with South Australia for the 2013–14 season, though he didn't play a game for the state team during the season. After his failures as a top-order batsman, he became a wicket-keeper and moved down the batting order. This resulted in him being able to play several matches for South Australia in the Futures League.[5]
His breakout season came in 2015–16**, when he scored 822 runs at an average of 90.22 in 10 matches for Glenelg, including big scores of 195 against Adelaide and 151 against West Torrens.[5][6]'
'His improvement resulted in his inclusion in Australia's National Performance Squad in the 2017 off-season,[12] and he was also named as the sole wicket-keeper in the Australia A squad which was meant to tour South Africa for the 2017 South Africa Team Tri-Series.'

Fast forward to today & he has more in him of international cricket.


How do those drafted by AFL footy clubs compare with Carey.

*'For the 2016–17 season, Carey was given his first senior contract with South Australia.[9]

According to your theory, he should drop cricket for baseball, which pays more, or F1.

 

[jatz14]

Alex Carey is a good example:

Alex Carey (cricketer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Alex Tyson Carey (born 27 August 1991) is an Australian international cricketer. Formerly an Australian rules footballer, he is currently a wicket-keeper who plays for the Australian national team in all formats. In domestic cricket, he plays for South Australia and Adelaide Strikers.[2] He was the captain of the Greater Western Sydney Giants in 2010, but when they joined the Australian Football League in 2012, he was left out of the squad and returned to his home state of South Australia, where he began to play domestic cricket.

Carey turned down a rookie contract offer from the South Australian Cricket Association and moved to Sydney in 2010 to join the Australian Football League's (AFL) new expansion club, the Greater Western Sydney Giants,[5]'

His cricket career took a few seasons to takeoff:
'went back into grade cricket with the Glenelg Cricket Club for the 2012–13 season.'
'He played three Shield matches and averaged only 10.1 in six batting innings as he was dropped from the side'.

'Carey was given a rookie contract with South Australia for the 2013–14 season, though he didn't play a game for the state team during the season. After his failures as a top-order batsman, he became a wicket-keeper and moved down the batting order. This resulted in him being able to play several matches for South Australia in the Futures League.[5]
His breakout season came in 2015–16**, when he scored 822 runs at an average of 90.22 in 10 matches for Glenelg, including big scores of 195 against Adelaide and 151 against West Torrens.[5][6]'
'His improvement resulted in his inclusion in Australia's National Performance Squad in the 2017 off-season,[12] and he was also named as the sole wicket-keeper in the Australia A squad which was meant to tour South Africa for the 2017 South Africa Team Tri-Series.'

Fast forward to today & he has more in him of international cricket.


How do those drafted by AFL footy clubs compare with Carey.

*'For the 2016–17 season, Carey was given his first senior contract with South Australia.[9]

So, turned down a pro cricket contract in favour of second tier footy, and only returned to serious cricket after the footy fell through.

A rough summary would be, talented sportsman attempts to make a go of it in the little provisional world of Australian footy, and after failing, succeeds in his second choice of cricket.

Im not sure how this helps your thesis? Shouldn't he have abandoned footy immediately in favour of the money, drama and international intrigue of cricket, and not bothered with the whole trying second tier footy bit first?

I mean, if your general thrust with this is, we will lose all our players to the scope and money of international sports (after they have tried and failed at footy), then, so what?

 

[The Educator]

The revenue comparison is an apples vs oranges comparison as other overseas sporting leagues don't own a stadium and sell memberships like the AFL does. So the AFLs gross revenue is distorted in any comparison between leagues.

Which is true but in practice what I have seen previously are comparisons between the AFL's central revenues and the aggregate revenues of the clubs/franchises in foreign sporting leagues. A like-for-like comparison of revenues would include both central and aggregate club revenues (net of distributions from the central kitty). I.e the AFL will report around $870M in revenues for 2022 and the clubs are tracking for around $1.2B. The total AFL revenues will be over $1.7B (i.e. netting out the $338M the AFL reported distributing to clubs)...

...this is a distraction to my point though. The total money paid in salaries, across a league, is very much an apples for apples comparison. Money as a store of value, medium of exchange and unit of account, is about the only thing apart from apples themselves that lend themselves to an apples for apples comparison.

The AFL, even paying out a much lower share of revenue (both central AFL and clubs) still results in a far bigger pool of payments than other sports can compete with

 

[Kwality]

The safety net is lower in footy.

Do we know how good a footballer Cameron Green was ?

James Sutherland chose cricket & I

I think you need to do some research on motivation. On lots of things really, but for other threads.

You get a lot more money being a formula one driver, but we are not going to lose any female footballers to formula one, not one. Not if they are paid 100 million, not if they have the talent.

For many reasons, First, by the time you get old enough that money is a motivating factor in your decision making, its already to late for most pro sports. 10 year olds dont get into motor racing because of pay packets of F1 drivers, and if your 16 - 18, and not already a top ranked junior driver, its to late. And you dont get to be a top ranked junior driver, and a draft worthy junior footy player at the same time.
Second, you might just not like motor sports. Money is a useless motivator in getting people to take up sports they aren't into.

We are not losing junior girls to soccer because of the pay deals of the Matildas, or whatever.

And I dont mean, not many, I mean none, zero, not one. Now, if there are any girls that are playing both sports at a fairly high level at 16- 18, then it may play a role in which they pursue, but as both sports become more professional at the high end, and the pathways become more streamlined, the number of players at the top of those pathways involved in both will drop to not many, and the girls entering at the bottom will not do so for money.

You seem confused by the cause and effect here.

You see popular sports paying lots of money, and think, money makes them popular, so when they make more money, they will attract more people. But being popular is what made those sports rich, not the other way around. Money will not attract more people to soccer, it never has.

Money is only one measure of value & international sports have a significantly larger talent pool to draw on.

The decisions people make about their life does not only have one template.

In Aus kids come out of school with different sporting opportunities open to them as is best demonstrated by those going to College in the US & the opportunities in basketball, American Football, golf, swimming, athletics, tennis, baseball & I'm confident there would more examples.

As for soccer, our best players will always be drawn to proving themselves internationally.

I smiled:
'You see popular sports paying lots of money, and think, money makes them popular, so when they make more money, they will attract more people'.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I think you need to do some research on motivation. On lots of things really, but for other threads.

You get a lot more money being a formula one driver, but we are not going to lose any female footballers to formula one, not one. Not if they are paid 100 million, not if they have the talent.

For many reasons, First, by the time you get old enough that money is a motivating factor in your decision making, its already to late for most pro sports. 10 year olds dont get into motor racing because of pay packets of F1 drivers, and if your 16 - 18, and not already a top ranked junior driver, its to late. And you dont get to be a top ranked junior driver, and a draft worthy junior footy player at the same time.
Second, you might just not like motor sports. Money is a useless motivator in getting people to take up sports they aren't into.

We are not losing junior girls to soccer because of the pay deals of the Matildas, or whatever.

And I dont mean, not many, I mean none, zero, not one. Now, if there are any girls that are playing both sports at a fairly high level at 16- 18, then it may play a role in which they pursue, but as both sports become more professional at the high end, and the pathways become more streamlined, the number of players at the top of those pathways involved in both will drop to not many, and the girls entering at the bottom will not do so for money.

You seem confused by the cause and effect here.

You see popular sports paying lots of money, and think, money makes them popular, so when they make more money, they will attract more people. But being popular is what made those sports rich, not the other way around. Money will not attract more people to soccer, it never has.

Great post.

 

[RedV3x]

The safety net is lower in footy.

Lower than what exactly?

Money is only one measure of value & international sports have a significantly larger talent pool to draw on.

Yes and that makes for more competition acting against Australians.
I was amazed to see the number of tennis courts and people playing tennis in previous iron curtain countries.

The decisions people make about their life does not only have one template.

Definitely, and that usually reinforces non-monetary aspects.

In Aus kids come out of school with different sporting opportunities open to them

As explained earlier, the sporting die is already set by then w.r.t. pathways for those serious about professional sports.

best demonstrated by those going to College in the US

The college system is unique to the U.S.A. and you coudn't have picked a worse example w.r.t. Australian professional sports.

As for soccer, our best players will always be drawn to proving themselves internationally.

Where there is a mass of soccer-talented players ensuring they stay domestic.
International sports work both ways - initially attracting people but effectively repulsing the individual.

 

[Kwality]

An i

Lower than what exactly?



Yes and that makes for more competition acting against Australians.
I was amazed to see the number of tennis courts and people playing tennis in previous iron curtain countries.



Definitely, and that usually reinforces non-monetary aspects.


As explained earlier, the sporting die is already set by then w.r.t. pathways for those serious about professional sports.



The college system is unique to the U.S.A. and you coudn't have picked a worse example w.r.t. Australian professional sports.


Where there is a mass of soccer-talented players ensuring they stay domestic.
International sports work both ways - initially attracting people but effectively repulsing the individual.

Interesting set of interpretations of the points raised.
What is w.r.t ?

Note the US College system is open to any Australian with sporting aspirations & has been for decades.

 

[JD-Roo]

What is w.r.t ?

'with respect to'....... I think

 

[Professor Knowall]

Note the US College system is open to any Australian with sporting aspirations & has been for decades.

Any Australian? Actually it’s only open to those talented enough to attract a sports based scholarship …. Otherwise one would have to stump up fees of at least $50k (for the cheaper colleges not in the top tier of NCAAP sports) up to and sometimes exceeding $100k per year depending on the college. The U.S. student loan system is only open to U.S. citizens resident in the U.S.

 

[jatz14]

An i

Interesting set of interpretations of the points raised.
What is w.r.t ?

Note the US College system is open to any Australian with sporting aspirations & has been for decades.

Your right.

I expect that the extra money and the draw of open international competition will eventually attract sports people away from domestic sports leagues like the AFL.

It is inevitable that the draw to these international competitions on the same talent pool that Australian football draw from will eventually start to bite, and then over the next 20 years, the sport will really slide until it struggles to keep going at all.

I confidently predict that this will begin sometime around 1975, and footy will be essentially dead by 1990, 2000 at the latest.

The good folks on InsideSport rejoice (again) at the imminent death of AFL and triumphant rise of the A league. After all, highly paid, highly hyped, highly international, Australias biggest sport since the 60s (if only Australians weren't to dumb and provincial to know it). I mean, how dare AFL interfere in every Australian boys dream of playing Greek second division soccer.

 

[Kwality]

Any Australian? Actually it’s only open to those talented enough to attract a sports based scholarship …. Otherwise one would have to stump up fees of at least $50k (for the cheaper colleges not in the top tier of NCAAP sports) up to and sometimes exceeding $100k per year depending on the college. The U.S. student loan system is only open to U.S. citizens resident in the U.S.

Thanks - we are talking about the sport talents here as you have noted.

 

[jatz14]

Thanks - we are talking about the sport talents here as you have noted.

They have been saying the sports talent was going to flock to soccer and kill footy, since the 60s.

Apparently it's finally about to happen now, care to elaborate on what's changed?

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bjo187]

They have been saying the sports talent was going to flock to soccer and kill footy, since the 60s.

Apparently it's finally about to happen now, care to elaborate on what's changed?

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

It's the vibe!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It's the vibe!

The Sleeping Giant FINALLY awakes!

 

[kranger]

Can anyone with access to the full article give a breakdown of the key figures for the WAFL clubs?

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Four WAFL clubs combined to record a loss of nearly $1 million last year as the league’s staggering financial state was laid bare in end of year reports.

Subiaco (-$343,380) and East Fremantle (-$322,104) lodged the biggest losses while Peel Thunder (-$145,525) and East Perth (-$60,863) also finished the year in deficit.