List Mgmt. 2024 List Management Part 2 📃

[Robbo's my hero]

Google search and you’ll spot it but talk initially was 5.5 million over 6 years. May have been front ended so who knows this year and the next 2?

Geez I wish I was younger and a better footballer. Thanks for that.

 

[Arr0w]

I can’t see it but I can’t disprove it. It looks like a list that would be at the low end of the payment structure for regular senior players. $350k seems over the top.

It would mean most others are on around 240K. Doubt those 6 are on 350K as an average

 

[Soapy V]

I can’t see it but I can’t disprove it. It looks like a list that would be at the low end of the payment structure for regular senior players. $350k seems over the top.

Is it? I listened to Paul Marsh the other day and he said avg now way over $400k base and bottom players on close to $300k. Draftees are different and staggered

Also, said that this number will really grow over next year or two

 

[koutashoulda1_1]

Longish one - apologies - arguing we have what we need sans Speedy Defensive Forward, Smart 3rd KPD.

Overall
Our forwards applied very little pressure once Fogarty, then Cotts went down early in the season, putting undue pressure on a slow / slow to react midfield, and leading to snowballing of pressure on our defense.

Part of this is game plan imo. We aim to win contests and sacrifice the safety of structure for momentum/powering through. That's fine given our list of contested ball winners down back and in the middle, plus Charlie and Harry, but less so when it hits the deck in a slow forward line, on days its not going our way (e.g., from a clever opposition stoppage tactic), or when we drop a key contested player or two. Next soldier up doesnt really work when a role is founded on star power (see Weitering, Gov, Saad, Cripps, Walsh, Acres even, Mckay, Charlie).

Pace and defensive intent covers up some of these kinds of sins, but only when you have it. Williams into the forward line was important as it kept at least one oppo accountable and thereby spread their defense, improving Charlie and Harrys chances, even the smalls, and reducing the oppo ability to rebound. His defensive pressure wasnt great, just kept people worried.

Forwards
Motlop has goal sense, is fitter than people give him credit for (check his tracker numbers, often near team high) but he is too slow. Durdin seems slow to me too. Orazio... They are all fighting over the one position, and we will bleed when they are all in, particularly if Williams is out. They are not threatening, and the roles they are playing are weighted away from their particular gifts. None are defensive.

Anyway, keep Durdin and Motlop on the list, but make them fight it out for the one possie. Manage Williams minutes and keep him forward. Bring in Moir from rd 1. He is a threat, might go missing at stages, but his talents wont be expressed except at the top level. Cotts/Lij as HHF is a must in modern footy. Draft or trade for quick, defensive forward. Schulz going to Collingwood had me dirty for ... still dirty about that. But someone like that ideally.

Mids
If Moir takes Kemp's possie, put Kemp in the middle. Williams was our pacey mid plan, didnt work out. Kemp is quick, a damaging kick, can help prolong then replace Cripps through body size, and being in a see ball get ball role might remove a nervousness he seems to play with down back. Opens up Walsh and Cerra to do what they are there for too. Both Kemp and Cripps can roll forward and would be nightmare crossover matchups.

Backs
Imo Haynes or Young will play Rd 1. Weitering takes and beats all of Kemps and Govs and his own marking matchups currently. Plus is often the first to ground balls guarding space.

One plain lockdown matchup (Young), or a smart extra to each contest (Haynes), could free Weiters up to intercept and deliver. His kicking is elite and not at all utilised atm. Gov and Saad are properly freed up then, Cowan/Boyd and Newman can go where they need to. Someone needs to be responsible for dangerous small forwards among them, but 1 more smart player like Haynes would allow us to play more of a team defense than the one on one style we seem to have currently, allowing a Saad to cover a quicker Charlie Cameron

23

Charlie Cameron

Age

31

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.9

3star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.2

4star

type more reliably.

Anyway, roughly -

Speedy DF Charlie Williams
Moir Mckay Cotts

Ollie Cripps Acres
TDK Kemp Walsh

Newman Gov Cowan/Boyd
Saad Weiters Haynes

I/C: Cerra/Kennedy, Lij, Motlop/Durdin, Fogarty, Hewett

Sorry again for long post

On SM-A235F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Blue_Fusion]

IMO it’s a combination.

As I said earlier we have 6-7 players our list to play one role and none have established themselves

Most here would agree that small forward is a real weakness for us and must be improved asap

Other issue is they have contracts for next year and some longer.

Means we are hamstrung (pardon the pun) in what we can do

Decision to re-sign Durdin was baffling

 

[Blue and Silver]

Decided to try and nail down how I thought we could get Houston and stay in the first round

Assuming that Jack Carroll is headed West

Carlton: Pick 31 + Carroll (Value around pick 32)

For

West Coast: Pick 22 + Future 3rd

Then

Carlton: Future 1st + Future 2nd

For

Richmond: Pick 10 (received from Fremantle via Shai Bolton

10

Shai Bolton

Age

27

Ht

176cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.3

3star

K

6.9

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.4

4star

D

12.7

3star

K

9.2

4star

HB

3.5

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.7

4star

CL

1.8

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.6

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.0

1star

/Liam Baker

3

Liam Baker

Age

27

Ht

173cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

7.9

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.7

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

7.9

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

3star

CL

0.5

3star

D

14.4

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.8

4star

CL

1.2

4star

) + Pick 39

Then

Carlton: Pick 10 + Pick 22

For

Port Adelaide: Dan Houston

9

Dan Houston

Age

28

Ht

186cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.2

5star

K

11.8

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.0

5star

MG

289.2

4star

D

17.6

4star

K

11.6

4star

HB

6.0

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.4

4star

MG

319.9

5star

D

16.6

4star

K

12.4

5star

HB

4.2

4star

M

7.0

5star

T

2.6

4star

MG

279.8

5star

+ Pick 37

Which amounts to:

Carlton Out:

Carroll + 31 + Future 1st + Future 2nd


Carlton In:

Houston + 37 + 39 + WCE Future 3rd

Draft Hand:

11, 37, 39, 62, 65, 68


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[Stamos]

Decision to re-sign Durdin was baffling

Only if his shoulders are completely stuffed.

People comparing him to Owies (and their contracts), Owies has just had his best year. Durdin is quicker, more talented, way more upside. When Owies was Durdin’s age, he had kicked 0 AFL goals.

 

[BlueTongue]

Only if his shoulders are completely stuffed.

People comparing him to Owies (and their contracts), Owies has just had his best year. Durdin is quicker, more talented, way more upside. When Owies was Durdin’s age, he had kicked 0 AFL goals.

Yeah I hope his shoulders will come good, I see more upside to Durdin than Motlop.
Durdin has Boomer Harvey type attributes at times (I love his delivery into the forward line) but Motts just looks like a little leaguer to me. He has skills, but always looks frantic, like he has no idea what to do next or where to run.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I can’t see it but I can’t disprove it. It looks like a list that would be at the low end of the payment structure for regular senior players. $350k seems over the top.

Who knows...

iinm, players in their third year usually get an increase from their salary as a draftee.

We find Durdin and Motlop in that situation.

Fanta I suspect would be below AFL average of 400k... which is why 350 could make sense.

Fogarty signed an extension this year too, again if it's not 350k can't imagine it being much lower.

Owies should be on close to 350k, if he's on less than that then I can't see the fuss with the club in re-signing him?

The other mentioned was Cottrell... given he was brought straight back in off a lengthy spell with no form, he's a player that Voss values highly... plus he signed on for 3 years this year so chances are he's on at least 350k.

Draftees from pick 21-50 range are coming in on 110k + 4k per senior game they play.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I'll go to my grave saying our small forwards since Betts have all stunk, and I'm sticking to it!

Just hope that can be addressed in the off season so we're primed for 2025.

I’m a fan of Durd’s and Mots they have shown in small doses they have the ability to be good players, injuries certainly haven’t helped them…

But I’m with you and have said since I’ve been on this site, that we have had the worst drafting of class/impact small and medium forwards compared to every other club in the competition, you can through in needing another couple of developing KPD’s…

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Is it? I listened to Paul Marsh the other day and he said avg now way over $400k base and bottom players on close to $300k. Draftees are different and staggered

Also, said that this number will really grow over next year or two

So it’s a sign of the times then and Carlton is no different to other clubs in the AFL. Its then reduced to the value of each of those players, no matter the coin, to what we see during the season. Thats where the different opinions result in how we assess whether we’re paying the players the right amount based on their output.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I have no issue with re signing him just the length concerned me and IMO wasn’t needed

I don't see why they were in a hurry to sign him and Fogarty but not Owies?

Our cap by most reports is very tight, I don't see what Durdin and Fog have produced to warrant re-signing them so early.

 

[Soapy V]

Only if his shoulders are completely stuffed.

People comparing him to Owies (and their contracts), Owies has just had his best year. Durdin is quicker, more talented, way more upside. When Owies was Durdin’s age, he had kicked 0 AFL goals.

Comments are fair

Issue is how long do we keep players based on talent or upside?

I think we hang onto many players for too long and it hurts us

 

[Soapy V]

I don't see why they were in a hurry to sign him and Fogarty but not Owies?

Our cap by most reports is very tight, I don't see what Durdin and Fog have produced to warrant re-signing them so early.

Agree. Could be purely timing? As I said Owies is the only one out of contract and possibly worth something and we need spots and possibly picks.

Because we have signed the others to longer contracts we don’t have any choice

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Only if his shoulders are completely stuffed.

People comparing him to Owies (and their contracts), Owies has just had his best year. Durdin is quicker, more talented, way more upside. When Owies was Durdin’s age, he had kicked 0 AFL goals.

Durdin has literally achieved nothing. You’re basing this on a hope.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Only if his shoulders are completely stuffed.

People comparing him to Owies (and their contracts), Owies has just had his best year. Durdin is quicker, more talented, way more upside. When Owies was Durdin’s age, he had kicked 0 AFL goals.

The timing of it is what has me puzzled...

Played 11 games last year, signed the extension early in the season and was getting gifted games... no way his form warranted selection when Voss kept selecting him.

Now he has reoccurring shoulder issues...

It's not like other clubs would have been calling his manager with some lucrative offer...

 

[circusdevil]

Im not sure poor kid is the right term with Moir, he was touted as a top 5 pick in his underage year and regressed from there until sliding to our pick around 28. According to people here and draft watches he struggled with application, intensity and form through his top age year.

It seems questioning his work ethic and intensity was spot on, I’ve not seen many question his skills and abilities though, which he has plenty≥

He didn't regress, he was injured ... it wasn't effort or intensity, it was his body. He has shown once his body has started to improve that he is intense enough and has a good work ethic. To question his application is just rubbish. This was never the case.

 

[gbatman]

AFL average is just over $400k. Williams is on about $800k

Whilst I’m estimating it’s a lot of money tied up in a group that haven’t performed and aren’t that young. Not only that several have contracts that go beyond next year

That’s not including Owies and we may well add Konstanty & Rosas.

It’s a lot of money and spots

It’s a concern

He would have been heavily front loaded wouldn't he? Our list was poor at the time, we had to find avenues to spend on to reach our minimum player payments. I am assuming his contract was likely part of it.

An AFL club with a weak list is a bit like a business with a tax problem. You have to find something to spend money on.

Not worth that money, but when your list is young and low quality, you need to overspend on players to one, get them there and two, meet the minimum player payments.

Worse thing you can do list management wise is up the payments to current players to meet minimum player contracts. Far better to overspend on incoming recruits. Uppin payments of young players to meet the MPP is how teams blow their cap up down the track.

We seem to have space to spend so we must be alright. Adding a few long contracts will likely open up our cap a little.

Our biggest issue is trade currency. Having the players and the picks available to us to get what we want.

 

[Arr0w]

Acres is on 350K, but apparently our small forwards are on more

 

[Arr0w]

Really looking forward to this trade and draft period

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Really looking forward to this trade and draft period

I’m looking forward to 2025 and winning the premiership. I can have that optimism before the season starts. I hope the trade and draft period is gold, gold, gold.

 

[Soapy V]

He would have been heavily front loaded wouldn't he? Our list was poor at the time, we had to find avenues to spend on to reach our minimum player payments. I am assuming his contract was likely part of it.

An AFL club with a weak list is a bit like a business with a tax problem. You have to find something to spend money on.

Not worth that money, but when your list is young and low quality, you need to overspend on players to one, get them there and two, meet the minimum player payments.

Worse thing you can do list management wise is up the payments to current players to meet minimum player contracts. Far better to overspend on incoming recruits. Uppin payments of young players to meet the MPP is how teams blow their cap up down the track.

We seem to have space to spend so we must be alright. Adding a few long contracts will likely open up our cap a little.

Our biggest issue is trade currency. Having the players and the picks available to us to get what we want.

Very good reasoned post. Nice to see and read

 

[Soapy V]

I’m looking forward to 2025 and winning the premiership. I can have that optimism before the season starts. I hope the trade and draft period is gold, gold, gold.

Yep. Fingers crossed

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Acres is on 350K, but apparently our small forwards are on more

Yeah Williams is on 800-900k

 

[DangerousD]

I think Austin will end up swapping our F1 for Brisbane’s 1st rounder, after they trade it to Richmond for points.

He will then trade pick 11 to Port for Houston.

We will then try to pick swap our way ahead of a bid for Ben.