List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[gringo2011]

That one trade set us back ten years?

Topping up when we should have drafted did. We should have dropped back like Freo, Hawks and Adelaide did. Taken bulk kids and done the foundations first. It was a lost era that has consequences still. Our players in the 23 to 27 age bracket don’t exist because we didn’t draft any. A lot of the top ups are now at the end and we have nothing to show for any of it.

 

[gringo2011]

If you take this out of a post where I criticise a decision of the club (the mistake of drafting Gamble) then we might as well be speaking different languages.

Ross Lyon was the problem not Gamble. He didn’t want inexperienced players in the side. We have had 15 years to get over Gamble. Could easily say that Richo stuffed up by giving up on Siposs and Lee types because he wanted to play his own boys. We didn’t really know what we were doing or care to learn how to.

 

[MordySaint]

We're not talking about Petracca we're talking about the trade with Fremantle for Hill.

We gave up a heck of a lot of draft capital for Hill.

• No. 10
• Blake Acres
• Future second round
• Future fourth round

Any many people thought we came out on top at time too.

We literally game away our future picks like they were coin purse.

 

[beside the seaside]

Topping up when we should have drafted did. We should have dropped back like Freo, Hawks and Adelaide did. Taken bulk kids and done the foundations first. It was a lost era that has consequences still. Our players in the 23 to 27 age bracket don’t exist because we didn’t draft any. A lot of the top ups are now at the end and we have nothing to show for any of it.

Yep the strategy failed in the end. Now we're dropping back. Hopefully it works this time. The next five years talking about how we should have drafted Bont Petracca and Serong will sure be fun.

 

[beside the seaside]

We gave up a heck of a lot of draft capital for Hill.

• No. 10
• Blake Acres
• Future second round
• Future fourth round

Any many people thought we came out on top at time too.

We literally game away our future picks like they were coin purse.

Gallagher was a terrible negotiator unfortunately. SOS is much better in that department thankfully.

 

[The Punter]

Ross Lyon was the problem not Gamble. He didn’t want inexperienced players in the side. We have had 15 years to get over Gamble. Could easily say that Richo stuffed up by giving up on adipose and Lee types because he wanted to play his own boys. We didn’t really know what we were doing or care to learn how to.

Can't play 'em if you don't draft 'em. Isn't that why we have no 23-27 year olds? I read a post somewhere saying that... gimme a sec to find it...

Topping up when we should have drafted did. We should have dropped back like Freo, Hawks and Adelaide did. Taken bulk kids and done the foundations first. It was a lost era that has consequences still. Our players in the 23 to 27 age bracket don’t exist because we didn’t draft any. A lot of the top ups are now at the end and we have nothing to show for any of it.

We didn't draft any.

I mean, this is incorrect - we didn't draft enough, didn't draft the right ones, didn't develop who we had.

2016 we drafted Battle and Long. Both going OK, unfortunately for us right now, at other clubs.
2017 Coffield
2018 Bytel, Young, Hind and Parker
2019 Connolly
2020 Allison

All drafted in that age bracket (23-27 now).

 

[gringo2011]

Yep the strategy failed in the end. Now we're dropping back. Hopefully it works this time. The next five years talking about how we should have drafted Bont Petracca and Serong will sure be fun.

It was doomed to failure from the start. If you are relying on luck as your main strategy, you are up against it.

We have done a lot of remedial work and still tried to stay competitive. It is absolutely light years ahead of Lethlean's reckless version. Only time will tell if it works out now but the fundamentals are much better and having a football department with experience is a huge boost for its chances.

Having a pro recruiter alone is a huge boost. We'd sell of players with nearly zero chance that we'd recover a player of equal or better quality before. Gresham looks like a really positive move so far and even if Collard does't come off it looks like we might end up better for putting time into others.

 

[gringo2011]

Can't play 'em if you don't draft 'em. Isn't that why we have no 23-27 year olds? I read a post somewhere saying that... gimme a sec to find it...

We didn't draft any.

I mean, this is incorrect - we didn't draft enough, didn't draft the right ones, didn't develop who we had.

2016 we drafted Battle and Long. Both going OK, unfortunately for us right now, at other clubs.
2017 Coffield
2018 Bytel, Young, Hind and Parker
2019 Connolly
2020 Allison

All drafted in that age bracket (23-27 now).

We drafted some. it's not like you can avoid the draft completely but none have bee above average except for the guys we let go.

 

[beside the seaside]

It was doomed to failure from the start. If you are relying on luck as your main strategy, you are up against it.

We have done a lot of remedial work and still tried to stay competitive. It is absolutely light years ahead of Lethlean's reckless version. Only time will tell if it works out now but the fundamentals are much better and having a football department with experience is a huge boost for its chances.

Having a pro recruiter alone is a huge boost. We'd sell of players with nearly zero chance that we'd recover a player of equal or better quality before. Gresham looks like a really positive move so far and even if Collard does't come off it looks like we might end up better for putting time into others.

What are your thoughts on getting TDK, Bergman and Aleer, and possibly others? Is the timing right for those players?

 

[gringo2011]

We gave up a heck of a lot of draft capital for Hill.

• No. 10
• Blake Acres
• Future second round
• Future fourth round

Any many people thought we came out on top at time too.

We literally game away our future picks like they were coin purse.

Great trade, we gave up 2538 points value and got back 395 points in value. If you want to understand why we haven't really moved forward and why people are still suggesting that this era was a disaster look here.

2019 Trade for Blake Acres and Brad Hill - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

 

[The Punter]

We drafted some. it's not like you can avoid the draft completely but none have bee above average except for the guys we let go.

Very good, and I'll stand corrected if you can find my post saying we didn't make mistakes during that period, or any other period.

Saying I'm excusing the stuff ups is inaccurate. Saying we are in the situation we are in solely because of those admitted (by all) stuff ups is also inaccurate.

 

[gringo2011]

What are your thoughts on getting TDK, Bergman and Aleer, and possibly others? Is the timing right for those players?

Bergman is probably the only one I'd look at but think that he's going to cost more than we would really like to give up for him. If I was a Port fan I'd want a decent FRDP. Probably around pick 10 at a minimum. I would rather take our luck at the draft and get Rodriguez or Grlj types in. Maybe even a Ludowyke if King looks cooked.

Aleer looks worse than what we already have IMO. He looks stylish doing not much and probably has some growth but to me Caminiti looks better. Bergman could play the Battle role but really we need a star mid that develops up and we just don't have enough yet.

If we could get into Butters or Matt Rowell's ear we maybe change direction a bit earlier but when you sit firmly in the bottom 6 teams and everyone else has stockpiled more talent already you need to keep drafting a bit longer.

Doing what Melbourne did and condensing picks up to chase specific players works too.

 

[gringo2011]

Very good, and I'll stand corrected if you can find my post saying we didn't make mistakes during that period, or any other period.

Saying I'm excusing the stuff ups is inaccurate. Saying we are in the situation we are in solely because of those admitted (by all) stuff ups is also inaccurate.

Why are we shitting up the forum still? You are a Pollyanna and I'm a Grinch, I don't think anyone else gives a shit what we are saying.

 

[True Believer]

The ball is in the court of the list managers and recruitment team.

This statement is the very neat segway for people to stop driveling on about what we ****ed up ten years ago, because most of us lived through it, we know what happened. It's the journey that got us to today! You know what, I lived through us losing the greatest full forward in the history of the game (and the only reason we had crowds for a few years there!), to Sydney.....The sun still came up after that.....even when the Swans came back to poach the long-term replacement key forward we found....... the sun continued to rise in the mornings.

The coaching, recruiting, and list management team has basically been put into place in the past 3 years.....anything prior to that is moot.

We seem to be identifying talent the best we have in 20 years.....

We seem to be developing them OK so far,......

We seem to understand that we need to get top end talent through the door ASAP, and it can't just be the draft, because that won't give us enough new talented bodies fast enough to make up ground......

Where there is life, there is hope, Saints fans of all clubs should know this!

Some years ago, someone important to me dropped dead one morning in the shower at the age of 35, from an aneurism that ruptured, with no prior warning or symptoms, so trust me when I say there are far worse things in life than your footy team stinking it up. I am as passionate about our beloved Saints as anyone. I have a Saints tattoo, memorabilia around the house, I sponsor a player, have been a member for years....so I get the frustration, but at least keep it to pissing and moaning about the now, not crap that happened twenty years ago!!

Focus on the now, remember today is a gift, that's why it's called the present!

Burning energy on things you cannot change is a waste of a life.......

 

[The Punter]

Why are we shitting up the forum still? You are a Pollyanna and I'm a Grinch, I don't think anyone else gives a shit what we are saying.

AFAIC...

1. Because the system remains broken
2. Because the unavoidable implication from accusing posters like me that we are "excusing mistakes" by highlighting other contributing factors is that we are somehow responsible for fostering a permission environment for the club to keep making mistakes

 

[beside the seaside]

Bergman is probably the only one I'd look at but think that he's going to cost more than we would really like to give up for him. If I was a Port fan I'd want a decent FRDP. Probably around pick 10 at a minimum. I would rather take our luck at the draft and get Rodriguez or Grlj types in. Maybe even a Ludowyke if King looks cooked.

Aleer looks worse than what we already have IMO. He looks stylish doing not much and probably has some growth but to me Caminiti looks better. Bergman could play the Battle role but really we need a star mid that develops up and we just don't have enough yet.

If we could get into Butters or Matt Rowell's ear we maybe change direction a bit earlier but when you sit firmly in the bottom 6 teams and everyone else has stockpiled more talent already you need to keep drafting a bit longer.

Doing what Melbourne did and condensing picks up to chase specific players works too.

If we get Bergman to nominate it is going to be an absolute shitfight. No way SOS will want to give up a first round pick.

 

[gringo2011]

This statement is the very neat segway for people to stop driveling on about what we ****ed up ten years ago, because most of us lived through it, we know what happened. It's the journey that got us to today! You know what, I lived through us losing the greatest full forward in the history of the game (and the only reason we had crowds for a few years there!), to Sydney.....The sun still came up after that.....even when the Swans came back to poach the long-term replacement key forward we found....... the sun continued to rise in the mornings.

The coaching, recruiting, and list management team has basically been put into place in the past 3 years.....anyting prior to that is moot.

We seem to be identifying talent the best we have in 20 years.....

We seem to be developing them OK so far,......

We seem to understand that we need to get top end talent through the door ASAP, and it can't just be the draft, because that won't give us enough new talented bodies fast enough to make up ground......

Where there is life, there is hope, Saints fans of all clubs should know this!

Some years ago, someone important to me dropped dead one morning in the shower at the age of 35, from an aneurism that ruptured, with no prior warning or symptoms, so trust me when I say there are far worse things in life than your footy team stinking it up. I am as passionate about our beloved Saints as anyone. I have a Saints tattoo, memorabilia around the house, I sponsor a player, have been a member for years....so I get the frustration, but at least keep it to pissing and moaning about the now, not crap that happened twenty years ago!!

Focus on the now, remember today is a gift, that's why it's called the present!

Burning energy on things you cannot change is a waste of a life.......

Wise words but I just want the fantasy stuff to stop or at least people sooking about criticism. It takes two sides to argue a point. We did dumb shit, it looks better now, happy to move on.

 

[The Punter]

The handwringing over Paddy seems odd

Everyone knows Petracca was the better player but Paddy could play.

I’ll never forget one game maybe first few years he absolutely tore Rance a new one for a quarter and a half and then snapped his collarbone. That was his career in a nutshell. Incredible mark and decent kick but could never get healthy.

He was never going to be Fev or Buddy but he would have been a very good player.

AFL Tables - Richmond v St Kilda - Sat, 20-Aug-2016 2:10 PM - Match Stats

It was more like half a quarter.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Says the guy too scared to wear headphones in public

 

[akaifu]

Bergman is probably the only one I'd look at but think that he's going to cost more than we would really like to give up for him. If I was a Port fan I'd want a decent FRDP. Probably around pick 10 at a minimum. I would rather take our luck at the draft and get Rodriguez or Grlj types in. Maybe even a Ludowyke if King looks cooked.

Aleer looks worse than what we already have IMO. He looks stylish doing not much and probably has some growth but to me Caminiti looks better. Bergman could play the Battle role but really we need a star mid that develops up and we just don't have enough yet.

If we could get into Butters or Matt Rowell's ear we maybe change direction a bit earlier but when you sit firmly in the bottom 6 teams and everyone else has stockpiled more talent already you need to keep drafting a bit longer.

Doing what Melbourne did and condensing picks up to chase specific players works too.

I think no matter what we do this off-season, we have to get a pick that is high enough to allow us access to Grlj/Fred/Hibbins-Hargreaves/a dynamic mid depending how the top 10 shapes up. If Fred slides out to teens then maybe we could get both him and Grlj

Grlj has drawn comparisons to Zak Butters & Hugh McCluggage - he'd be so perfect for us

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Correct. Kicked 2 goals and generally was unplayable.

Reading up on it he had 3 separate concussions that year. Bloke never got any continuity.

Definitely think we should have picked Petracca but I don’t think anyone could succeed with the injury lucky Paddy had. I’m all for shitting on the development of Cho. We essentially bottomed out and all we have to show for it is Jack Sinclair but Paddy’s thing was just unfortunate.

What is forgotten in all the 2014 Draft angst is that we had just taken 3 kids who were considered to be our future midfield in Year 1 of the rebuild (2013) and we had sweet FA talented young talls.

In 2014 Billings & Dunstan had both shown glimpses in their debut seasons to make us all believe that they would develop into bonafide high quality AFL players. Acres had copped a bout of glandular fever & then a broken collarbone from memory but was highly rated.

In those days the blueprint was still to get your spine sorted & then fill out the midfield. Clubs were probably still spooked from Richmond overlooking Roughhead & Buddy & going for mids 10 years before that not to mention the Boyd trade causing panic.

Our cupboard of talls was bare... Our tall forward stocks consisted of a 32-year-old superstar with a rooted knee, a state league 'tweener' in Tom Lee & Beau Wilkes-Maister. Josh Bruce has just arrived as a defender with Skunk who was an undersized forward with 1 game to his name.

The decision to go with the tall forward was perfectly understandable given where the list was at that point in time.

It wasn't as clear cut as so many want to make out.

The biggest mistake was drafting on needs & not pure talent...and then having the worst development set up in the league.

 

[bergholt]

The call was made because the cost of getting in a gun KPF was insane at the time, we said as much publicly.

The logic is fine if a gun KPF is necessary, but it didn't look like it was at the time, and history has proven that.

Here's the players who kicked 40+ for the premiers since Paddy was drafted.

2015 Hawthorn: Gunston 57, Breust 52, Roughead 50, Rioli 42
2016 Bulldogs: Stringer 42, Dickson 40
2017 Richmond: Riewoldt 54
2018 West Coast: Darling 48, Kennedy 43
2019 Richmond: Lynch 63
2020 Richmond: Riewoldt 33, Lynch 32 (shortened season)
2021 Melbourne: Fritsch 59, Pickett 40
2022 Geelong: Hawkins 67, Cameron 65, Stengle 53
2023 Collingwood: Mihocek 47
2024 Brisbane: Daniher 58, Cameron 44

Some solid players and some stars, but looks to me like most sides don't need a gun KPF to win a flag.

 

[bergholt]

The decision to go with the tall forward was perfectly understandable given where the list was at that point in time.

It wasn't as clear cut as so many want to make out.

Haha it was to me:

 

[The Punter]

The logic is fine if a gun KPF is necessary, but it didn't look like it was at the time, and history has proven that.

Here's the players who kicked 40+ for the premiers since Paddy was drafted.

2015 Hawthorn: Gunston 57, Breust 52, Roughead 50, Rioli 42
2016 Bulldogs: Stringer 42, Dickson 40
2017 Richmond: Riewoldt 54
2018 West Coast: Darling 48, Kennedy 43
2019 Richmond: Lynch 63
2020 Richmond: Riewoldt 33, Lynch 32 (shortened season)
2021 Melbourne: Fritsch 59, Pickett 40
2022 Geelong: Hawkins 67, Cameron 65, Stengle 53
2023 Collingwood: Mihocek 47
2024 Brisbane: Daniher 58, Cameron 44

Some solid players and some stars, but looks to me like most sides don't need a gun KPF to win a flag.

That's some pretty good skating past the fact that:

• WB traded pick 6 and an AA mid for Tom Boyd, then gave him a massive contract
• Boyd then played a massive role in that 2016 premiership

I'm not defending the decision to draft McCartin over Petracca. But it is a mistake with an explanation. There was a rationale to making that choice.

In 2013 we simply rated Billings over Bontempelli, and the accepted truth is most clubs shared that view. It was still a mistake, but not an easy one to avoid. The mistake in 2014 was easier to avoid, but explainable (while still being a mistake).

 

[bergholt]

That's some pretty good skating past the fact that:

• WB traded pick 6 and an AA mid for Tom Boyd, then gave him a massive contract
• Boyd then played a massive role in that 2016 premiership

Boyd kicked 13 goals in 15 games that year, just because he turned into prime Shane Ellen for the day doesn't mean he was worth the money!