List Mgmt. 2026 List Management

[Red_man2008]

We’ve traded 2 high picks for 1 twice in 11 years, if you consider picks 20 and 21 that we swapped for with the Dogs to pick Charlie Curnow as “high”.

We’ve traded picks in so many different ways since that 2015 draft (up, down, forward, back), not sure if it’s that your memory is poor, or you just love having an axe to grind?

Interesting that picks 20 and 21 got us three first round picks and Haywood. lol.

 

[carlton_99]

Is that not what the expectation should be?
Number 1 draft pick, played in his preferred role, would believe him to be one of the highest paid players on the list, permanent fixture in the leadership group.
He’s been a good player, continues to be, but is he a great of this club?
Nowhere near it from my perspective
Has an element of conditional, selfishness to his game.
A great player covers the deficiencies of other defenders that don’t have the same level of capability, don’t think Weitering does this anywhere near the level of great. Don’t think he goes every time he needs to go, compare that aspect to the kids dad he plays with now, hurts a little too easily.
I don’t rate him anywhere near a great.

He has been covering for the deficiencies of others for years. We haven't given him any support since Jones left and he has made our defence somehow watchable despite often little delay on the ball in the middle. Please look through the names of KPD partners Jacob has had over the last 10 years and compare it to any other KPD. It's a laughable disparity.

I haven't seen any significant evidence of him not going when he needs to but each to their own. Also, not sure what your definition of a club great is - everyone would have a different one. Some would require more team success which is fair enough but that's not on any single player.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

You’re taking a very glass half-empty, simple and black and white attitude into this prospective trade

I think we would negotiate salary payment rather than giving good picks back.

But even so, if we ended up with a pick in the top 15-18, that’s a good result. We should have a young, promising kid, instead of a player who will 100% not be there when we’re meaningfully competitive again. A 1-1 for H is acceptable, anything more than that is a bonus. So many guns are picked between 10-20 - at least 4 of my top personal top 10 in the comp were in that range: Kozzie, Butters, Bailey, Richards.

But we don’t even have to commit to the draft, we could use the picks to find a good young senior player already.

We have to back ourselves to get it right or we may as well pack up shop.

But it’s almost a free hit anyway - it’s not costing us much by moving H on bc he won’t be there when we’re challenging again regardless.

Of course I'm going to take a simple approach... what do you expect, an example of a fleshed out trade with everything factored in... yeah not happening.

Fact is, his total value will be around pick 8.

Another fact, he's contracted and he has to want to be traded.

If I had my way, he'd be gone. You're preaching to the choir here anyway... I've been talking about wanting to trade him for years now... he plays like a fairy instead of a 200cm key forward.

I spoke about this quite a bit last year, to not hang onto 'stars' that clearly aren't going to be part of our next flag...

 

[Red_man2008]

Baffling talk isn't it. Weiter's is an absolute gun and has been for some time. He definitely doesn't rely on his athleticism but rather nouse and strength, I think he will age just fine.

Imagining that even in 5 drafts (let alone 2 late teens picks) we can find a relative replacement is utterly delusional.

Weiter's is a problem we deal with when he says he has had enough, and not a moment earlier.

He still hasn’t hit his straps yet this year after the broken ribs.

 

[Red_man2008]

2027/2028 team (drafted by)
Cowan (Austin) Weitering (SOS) Newman (SOS)
Florent (Austin) HOF (Austin) saad (SOS)
Pittonet (SOS) Cripps (Rogers) Walsh (SOS)
Hollands (Austin) Smith (Austin) Chesser (Austin)
Haywood (Austin) McKay (SOS) Walker (??)
Evans (Austin) HOK (Austin) Ainsworth (Austin)

Cotterell (SOS) Moir (SOS) Carroll (Austin) Hewett (SOS) Dean (Austin)

 

[charred_fate]

Of course I'm going to take a simple approach... what do you expect, an example of a fleshed out trade with everything factored in... yeah not happening.

Fact is, his total value will be around pick 8.

Another fact, he's contracted and he has to want to be traded.

If I had my way, he'd be gone. You're preaching to the choir here anyway... I've been talking about wanting to trade him for years now... he plays like a fairy instead of a 200cm key forward.

I spoke about this quite a bit last year, to not hang onto 'stars' that clearly aren't going to be part of our next flag...

Yes, I know we’re on the same page re this and have been for years.

And no, not a fully fleshed out trade, just acknowledgement that they are more nuanced and there are many parts to it that could see the return boosted. It’s completely different to saying we’re just going to get pick x so therefore it’s a no.

 

[BluStreak]

I don’t think Jacob Weitering would leave Carlton to play for the South Australian Carlton?

True, $$$ maybe or another club like the Bulldogs and we use that trade deal to secure Butters.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Yes, I know we’re on the same page re this and have been for years.

And no, not a fully fleshed out trade, just acknowledgement that they are more nuanced and there are many parts to it that could see the return boosted. It’s completely different to saying we’re just going to get pick x so therefore it’s a no.

I wouldn't say no to pick 8 for him tbh...

 

[gbatman]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

If we did that we would be looking at:

IN: Walker, Butters, Humphrey, Walter and 4 first round picks.
OUT: Weitering, McKay, McGovern, Saad, Cerra, Hollands, Williams, Haynes, Acres (some probably retained on low contracts)

Team would look like this in 2027

Cowan Dean Derksen
Wilson O'Farrell Florent
Smith Cripps Carroll
Hayward Kemp Ainsworth
O'Keeffe Walter Humphrey
Pittonet Walsh Butters
Byrne Walker Hewett Newman Motlop

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

 

[CCurnow3picks]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

If we did that we would be looking at:

IN: Walker, Butters, Humphrey, Walter and 4 first round picks.
OUT: Weitering, McKay, McGovern, Saad, Cerra, Hollands, Williams, Haynes, Acres (some probably retained on low contracts)

Team would look like this in 2027

Cowan Dean Derksen
Wilson O'Farrell Florent
Smith Cripps Carroll
Hayward Kemp Ainsworth
O'Keeffe Walter Humphrey
Pittonet Walsh Butters
Byrne Walker Hewett Newman Motlop

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

Sorry, but your post contravenes the BF - "4 million word limit"...need to shave it down a tad please.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

So what you're telling us is that we're trading out Weitering and a couple of 2nds - and in return they're sending us Walter, Humphrey, two 1st rounders, as well as a 3rd just for good measure?!?!

Good luck with that.

 

[charred_fate]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

If we did that we would be looking at:

IN: Walker, Butters, Humphrey, Walter and 4 first round picks.
OUT: Weitering, McKay, McGovern, Saad, Cerra, Hollands, Williams, Haynes, Acres (some probably retained on low contracts)

Team would look like this in 2027

Cowan Dean Derksen
Wilson O'Farrell Florent
Smith Cripps Carroll
Hayward Kemp Ainsworth
O'Keeffe Walter Humphrey
Pittonet Walsh Butters
Byrne Walker Hewett Newman Motlop

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

You need to be realistic.

Even a realistic scenario is worth it for where we (and the players) are at.

I don’t understand this fear of bottom 4 - we’re probably finishing up there or close enough regardless so what does it matter if we end up there with or without Weiters and H. What does it matter if we finish bottom 6 or bottom 8 if we’re not building a list to make a proper charge?

And if we don’t make the play to trade them out now, we’re in a far worse position when they retire in a few years and we’re still cellar dwellers.

We just have to recognise that with or without those guys, we are going nowhere meaningful for the rest of their careers, so the smart play is to cash in while we can.

 

[juzza316]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

If we did that we would be looking at:

IN: Walker, Butters, Humphrey, Walter and 4 first round picks.
OUT: Weitering, McKay, McGovern, Saad, Cerra, Hollands, Williams, Haynes, Acres (some probably retained on low contracts)

Team would look like this in 2027

Cowan Dean Derksen
Wilson O'Farrell Florent
Smith Cripps Carroll
Hayward Kemp Ainsworth
O'Keeffe Walter Humphrey
Pittonet Walsh Butters
Byrne Walker Hewett Newman Motlop

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

Have another drink, this is just ridiculous.

 

[Aphrodite]

Back to trading Weiters again



Bye. Week. Boredom.

 

[SammaGilberto]

2027/2028 team (drafted by)
Cowan (Austin) Weitering (SOS) Newman (SOS)
Florent (Austin) HOF (Austin) saad (Austin)
Pittonet (SOS) Cripps (Rogers) Walsh (SOS)
Hollands (Austin) Smith (Austin) Chesser (Austin)
Haywood (Austin) McKay (SOS) Walker (??)
Evans (Austin) HOK (Austin) Ainsworth (Austin)

Cotterell (SOS) Moir (Austin) Carroll (Austin) Hewett (Austin) Dean (Austin)

EFA

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

Weitering and two second rounders for TWO firsts + Walter + Humphrey .... come on...

That's not an aggressive move, it's just never gonna happen...

Then you think "2 firsts" will do the job for Butters... Port will match no matter what... absolutely no matter what, you can front load all you want they are not losing Butters for a compo pick. You think they're going to accept any two firsts for one of the best mids in the comp in his prime? Nonsense. They will want our very best 2026 firsts... that means no Walker.

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

Yeah, in la la land, not reality...

 

[CarmenSandiego]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

If we did that we would be looking at:

IN: Walker, Butters, Humphrey, Walter and 4 first round picks.
OUT: Weitering, McKay, McGovern, Saad, Cerra, Hollands, Williams, Haynes, Acres (some probably retained on low contracts)

Team would look like this in 2027

Cowan Dean Derksen
Wilson O'Farrell Florent
Smith Cripps Carroll
Hayward Kemp Ainsworth
O'Keeffe Walter Humphrey
Pittonet Walsh Butters
Byrne Walker Hewett Newman Motlop

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

Sorry but I can’t believe such an effort was made and so many words to used all to post something so completely ridiculous.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

I wouldn't say no to pick 8 for him tbh...

Tassie will be wanting ready to go KPPs and will probably be paying above market value.

Anyway; we need to make trades work in our favour rather than simply balking or jumping at the biggest detail without having a reasonable idea of what those picks would net us.

For all those who might bring up some exceptions to try and disprove an arguement aren't looking at the big picture. We seem to have more of a history of trading down or out of drafts than we do the opposite or, at the very least, have little regard for going with the grain of a draft's strength. Someone at Carlton even boasted that last point one year, as if it was a good thing.

 

[Accidental genius]

Back to trading Weiters again



Bye. Week. Boredom.

Make Carlton great again !

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Tassie will be wanting ready to go KPPs and will probably be paying above market value.

Anyway; we need to make trades work in our favour rather than simply balking or jumping at the biggest detail without having a reasonable idea of what those picks would net us.

For all those who might bring up some exceptions to try and disprove an arguement aren't looking at the big picture. We seem to have more of a history of trading down or out of drafts than we do the opposite or, at the very least, have little regard for going with the grain of a draft's strength. Someone at Carlton even boasted that last point one year, as if it was a good thing.

I agree Tassie will pay overs, but will Harry want to go there? Don't forget he is contracted... they'd have to make him an offer he can't refuse and there's just too many better options out there for them to be doing that than chasing Harry.

If there's any draft that we should go after, it's this year's...

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I was having a good think about our recruiting and I believe that we have been too focused on targeting players with elite traits, rather than players who are balanced the whole way through. It's lead to us recruiting a lot of player who as U18s are really strong in some areas but well below AFL level in other crucial areas.

For instance we recruit a player who is powerful and big bodied like Stocker, ignore the fact his endurance is not AFL level plus other issues.

We recruit a player like O'Brien because of good kicking and endurance, ignore that his body size, contested game and being extremely outside was well below AFL standard.

Dow, we again were bedazzled by his elite traits, burst speed, contested ability. Ignore endurance issues, ignore the fact he doesn't get enough outside ball and link up.

Binns, focused on his endurance and accumulating, is small and slow.

SPS - focused on his kicking, lacked a contested game and a little pace.

Philp - pace but poor ball skills

Hollands - Endurance and competitor but a poor kick and very light framed.

I think we were so bedazzled by elite traits that some of these young players had that we chose to ignore their faults that were in many cases, extremely bad. We were basically trying to find freaks rather than playing the percentages. Honestly you are better off drafting players who have no real elite traits but are good in all areas. Particularly with top picks. Top picks you expect an elite trait or two and then be good through the rest of their profile. Good kicks, pace, endurance, skills, ball winning inside and outside and tackling.

I think we have dropped the ball a bit here. You draft a player who is good over their whole profile, generally you expect they improve in all areas at least a little and perhaps develop a bit better than expected in others.

The amount of player who I would say are bad in some of these traits, especially ones with high picks is where our recruiting tactics have really failed.

There are other areas we have failed like with forwards. We have taken in a lot of forwards who are too light framed, small forwards have to tackle and deal with congestion at times, don't have an overhead game and lack pace. A lot of light players who are slow and just sit back waiting for the ball to come in. I think Wright has straightened out how to identify good traits and non-negotiables in small forwards because Byrne has come from nowhere after years of being unable to identify forward traits.

It's interesting. I would love to hit this draft really hard and go in with a lot of high end picks.

So, what if we get to year's end and we are no good and all indicates we need a big rebuild.

What could an aggressive rebuild look like for us?

How do we do it? Do we look at trading from our elite talent again? What would we have left in that regard? Weitering? McKay? We can't afford to be bottoming out and rebuilding from the bottom 4 of the ladder. We would need a plan that involves them going out, being replaced by good young players plus extra.

If we trade Weitering and McKay, to me would mean we would have to get three first round picks plus steak knives for each player. How would that improve our list? I am looking at Gold Coast, we were into Humphrey and he was into us and Walter is in the reserves currently. Say they are a destination for Weitering.

Weitering goes to the Suns, they may think this pushes them to a flag, in return we send out two second round picks and they send two firsts Walter and Humphrey and maybe a third back.

Then there is McKay. I'd want a good young tall plus two prime first round picks from somewhere.

These are aggressive moves. You do it if you think that Dean, Young, O'Farrell and Derksen are going to hold down your backline and it's going to get you even more good young talent.

It would mean we go into this draft with 6 first round picks plus two the following year and an enormous open salary cap. Two picks for Walker takes us to 4. Perhaps another two for Butters. Then use the last two on the draft. OR Because offloading these sorts of players makes it difficult to meet out TPP, we just take Butters as an RFA and heavily front load his contract, pay most of it in the first three years. Trade Cerra and O Hollands for 3 or 2nd rounders. Weitering, TDK, Silvagni, McGovern, Saad, McKay, Cerra, Acres, Hollands, Williams, Haynes either off the list or on a very low contract in the space of 2 years. We could take Butters as an RFA 2m/year average on a 7 year deal, pay him half of that in the first two years of his contract and probably have our Salary cap under control.

If we did that we would be looking at:

IN: Walker, Butters, Humphrey, Walter and 4 first round picks.
OUT: Weitering, McKay, McGovern, Saad, Cerra, Hollands, Williams, Haynes, Acres (some probably retained on low contracts)

Team would look like this in 2027

Cowan Dean Derksen
Wilson O'Farrell Florent
Smith Cripps Carroll
Hayward Kemp Ainsworth
O'Keeffe Walter Humphrey
Pittonet Walsh Butters
Byrne Walker Hewett Newman Motlop

This is how you rebuild the list, gut it, but come away potentially better and keep your window open, plus have picks in the bank for 2027. I like the quality and age demographic and I will not be surprised if similar happens. It gives us time and more top end talent.

If this season is a flop, this is what we need to attempt to do.

If we could add a Humphrey type to go with Jagga, Walsh and Cody it would transform the profile of the list completely.

Butters is just never going to happen. He's 99% going to the dogs and even if that falls over we'd be one of 16 other clubs trying to get him.

I just hope we never again do a full rebuild. Enough clubs have proven that it is possible to avoid it if you keep nailing your trades and draft picks - even late ones - and keep your good players fit.

2 things I think our list management should focus on:

• Only bring in players with elite kicking skills.
• Be brutal delisting / trading guys who aren't up to the level. We have these guys we all know are shonky kicks but we retain them year after year.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Very simplistic view though. There are many variables and alternatives to a direct Player A to Club A for Pick X trade. And if a Club thinks he could be the piece to get them close to or over the line, they’ll find a way to satisfy us, esp if we pay part of his salary.

And tall forwards do still have inflated value. He’s not doing us any favours so far this season though.

I’m not saying H is worth two firsts (I’m one of his biggest critics and wouldn’t entertain even a first (nothing against the guy personally)), nor do I think we’d get two firsts, but we would likely get overs, which could push it into a mid to late first and possibly a little sweetener.

We’re only 2 rounds in, i think we should see how H, JW and all preform over the year before we start trading them out…
Appreciate you’re opinion getting in before the curb, personally think we should see how things play out CF…

 

[Red_man2008]

We all need to remember FA did exist when GC and GWS joined the league and they will be very scary for teams that have players out of contract when they are joining the league.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Of course I'm going to take a simple approach... what do you expect, an example of a fleshed out trade with everything factored in... yeah not happening.

Fact is, his total value will be around pick 8.

Another fact, he's contracted and he has to want to be traded.

If I had my way, he'd be gone. You're preaching to the choir here anyway... I've been talking about wanting to trade him for years now... he plays like a fairy instead of a 200cm key forward.

I spoke about this quite a bit last year, to not hang onto 'stars' that clearly aren't going to be part of our next flag...

He’s never been the crash a pack or a great one on one KPF, his strengths have been his speed, contested marks when given the space & run and a good down the line linkup along with his field kicking…
I don’t think he’s been developed properly since entering the club, personally I’m not trading him out unless he wants to, or the total trade is too good to not seriously consider…

 

[Blue_Fusion]

He’s never been the crash a pack or a great one on one KPF, his strengths have been his speed, contested marks when given the space & run and a good down the line linkup along with his field kicking…
I don’t think he’s been developed properly since entering the club, personally I’m not trading him out unless he wants to, or the total trade is too good to not seriously consider…

Whatever the reasons, development or not... the end result is what it is.

He's 29 this year and losing value at the trade table.