Expansion 20th AFL team location

[Cubs2Lions]

Split the swans and or lions again. Melbourne could easily support the swans.

If we are going down that route, we could promote all the standalone VFL clubs and then add Ballarat, Bendigo, Dandenong and University (again) into the mix and even pump money in all the VFA clubs also.

Could have really had a full EPL-style promotion and relegation pyramid occur with AFL if the sport continued to operate by only state systems, now we can blame South Melbourne relocating to Sydney for causing the overall downfall of that wonderful idea.

For real though, it would have been interesting to wonder what would have happened if the VFL didn’t go broke and the sport continued operating through the different state competitions only.

Oh well, hopefully Canberra / ACT region receives that 20th team slot in the AFL when the time does comes

 

[Coolangatta]

If we are going down that route, we could promote all the standalone VFL clubs and then add Ballarat, Bendigo, Dandenong and University (again) into the mix and even pump money in all the VFA clubs also.

Could have really had a full EPL-style promotion and relegation pyramid occur with AFL if the sport continued to operate by only state systems, now we can blame South Melbourne relocating to Sydney for causing the overall downfall of that wonderful idea.

For real though, it would have been interesting to wonder what would have happened if the VFL didn’t go broke and the sport continued operating through the different state competitions only.

Oh well, hopefully Canberra / ACT region receives that 20th team slot in the AFL when the time does comes

I feel like the only way you'd ever get even the faintest hope of support for a relegation and promotion type of system happening in the AFL is to essentially blackmail the Victorians into it by allowing them to fill the division one tier with mostly the VFL's non-reserve and non-affiliate teams.

So you hard cap the top league at 20 teams with Canberra coming in.

You fill division one with 20 teams:

Coburg, Frankston, Preston, Port Melbourne, Werribee, Williamstown, Fitzroy, 6 WAFL teams, 6 SANFL teams, Southport.

Division two: 3 other WAFL teams (maybe add Bunbury/SW team), 2 SANFL teams (+ a new SANFL franchise?), some NEAFL teams and/or new entities like Newcastle, Cairns, Sunshine Coast, Wollongong, NT, NZ etc.

Three divisions, 20 teams each division, best amateur/local league teams become the new "state" leagues, but there's no pathway for them to become promoted.

Edit: Or like you suggested, Ballarat etc, and just reduce the number of WAFL/SANFL in the first division. If you filled half of the 20 teams with Vic teams, I think you'd get more support. It might spice up their dying VFL comp.

 

[peetoo]

Really, aren’t relegation/promotion systems history?
I’m looking forward to a huge LOL when the a league version fails

 

[Coolangatta]

Really, aren’t relegation/promotion systems history?
I’m looking forward to a huge LOL when the a league version fails

Yeah it's way too late for that. If it began in the 80s, 3 divisions of 12 teams each consisting of VFL, SANFL and WAFL teams plus Sydney, Hobart, Launceston, Brisbane, Southport, Canberra, and the Northern Territory, it could've been a success. Over time, the other state/territory leagues could've broken off into a NEAFL competition of 12 teams which would've started out as a fourth division. You could have had the likes of Newcastle, New Zealand, Wollongong, Sunshine Coast, Cairns, and so on. The travel costs would've been insane, though.

 

[Rob R]

We should be thinking the other way around to even up the competition. It's not popular, but stripping a licence off a Victorian team and dropping them back to the VFL has to be better than a merger or folding a team. And it has to be one like North who can't support themselves.

Yep, time a Victorian club goes- only fair way is to boot the team that hasn't won final for a long time or perhaps a club stripped of points for drug cheating.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Yep, time a Victorian club goes- only fair way is to boot the team that hasn't won final for a long time or perhaps a club stripped of points for drug cheating.

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Can we boot the team that broke my heart in the last week of September last year instead

 

[Coolangatta]

We should be thinking the other way around to even up the competition. It's not popular, but stripping a licence off a Victorian team and dropping them back to the VFL has to be better than a merger or folding a team. And it has to be one like North who can't support themselves.

Nah, their idea of evening up the competition will be to add an 11th Victorian team if we go to 22 teams, a 12th if we go to 24 teams, and so on.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Really, aren’t relegation/promotion systems history?
I’m looking forward to a huge LOL when the a league version fails

Promotion/relegation could work, but not a full pyramid.
The split from national to regional leagues required for a full pyramid really only works when there isn't a vast gap between where the top regional leagues are physically located. If, for example, a Vic side gets relegated and a WA side promoted into the lower national tier things get lopsided in the regional leagues very fast. It works in Europe because shifting a team from north to south only means moving the border between leagues a few kilometres, not a few hundred.

A two tier-nation system at 24, or even 22 teams, could work readily enough. Contracts would need to include promotion and relegation clauses for salaries, and maybe include relegation release clauses. Salary and football department caps, and revenue allocation would need to be adjusted.
The draft probably would have to be scrapped (but I'm all for getting rid of the draft anyway) but there's nothing unworkable.

A 12 team top flight would allow a 22 round season with full home and away, and add meaning to the final games of the bottom teams in the top tier. In a lot of ways that is cleaner than BS like "conferences" or the lopsided fixtures we have now. Its hard to see going beyond two tiers though, at least for many decades.

As for the A-League Mens, the revenue isn't really there and I think they will struggle with a second tier. As much as they desperately need it for sporting reasons.
Association Football at the professional level in Australia, and Australian Football at the professional level, aren't really comparable with the options they have open to them due to revenue streams.

 

[Coolangatta]

Promotion/relegation could work, but not a full pyramid.
The split from national to regional leagues required for a full pyramid really only works when there isn't a vast gap between where the top regional leagues are physically located. If, for example, a Vic side gets relegated and a WA side promoted into the lower national tier things get lopsided in the regional leagues very fast. It works in Europe because shifting a team from north to south only means moving the border between leagues a few kilometres, not a few hundred.

A two tier-nation system at 24, or even 22 teams, could work readily enough. Contracts would need to include promotion and relegation clauses for salaries, and maybe include relegation release clauses. Salary and football department caps, and revenue allocation would need to be adjusted.
The draft probably would have to be scrapped (but I'm all for getting rid of the draft anyway) but there's nothing unworkable.

A 12 team top flight would allow a 22 round season with full home and away, and add meaning to the final games of the bottom teams in the top tier. In a lot of ways that is cleaner than BS like "conferences" or the lopsided fixtures we have now. Its hard to see going beyond two tiers though, at least for many decades.

As for the A-League Mens, the revenue isn't really there and I think they will struggle with a second tier. As much as they desperately need it for sporting reasons.
Association Football at the professional level in Australia, and Australian Football at the professional level, aren't really comparable with the options they have open to them due to revenue streams.

I think you could begin the split at 21 teams, 12 at the top and 9 in the next division. Keep the salary cap in place to stop clubs from buying all the best players.

The problem is, why do it unless the game grows rapidly in NSW and QLD and perhaps demand in NZ grows?

ACT, WA3 and SA3 seem like the only feasible teams in the next 20-30 years. Maybe Brisbane 2 but I think a new stadium would strengthen their case more.

A single tier league can work fine at 22 teams. Everyone plays once plus two rivals.

One of the major problems with the relegation system is missing out on those double ups. There’d be years where the Eagles don’t play the Dockers at all or where there’s no Anzac Day game between the Pies and Bombers. And so on.

The other problem is loss of TV rights revenue. If people don’t watch the second division as much, will the broadcasters pay less for the rights? Will the game be at risk of going completely behind a paywall?

I don’t think the AFL will do it, they’ll want good broadcast deals and to keep the marquee games.

 

[peetoo]

Most of the third and fourth level of English league has average attendances in the 6k range.

Vast difference between epl business model and that. As would be in any second national division of any sport in australia.

And those English clubs have long histories and links to local identity.


Let’s watch it fail in a-league before we decide it’s a good idea. You can quickly put the idea on the spot by asking how the draft would work.

Any promotion relegation systems operating a draft anywhere?

 

[Bjo187]

Yep, time a Victorian club goes- only fair way is to boot the team that hasn't won final for a long time or perhaps a club stripped of points for drug cheating.

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I personally liked these designs.

 

[Coolangatta]

I think the AFL should take a wait and see approach with the 20th team. Announce that they would prefer one but wait and see who actually wants one rather than "Well we want Sydney 3 even though no one is asking for it." Set the conditions for which a proposed new club has to meet to get the licence and grant it to whoever can meet the demands. Now, if it just so happens that the AFL has multiple bids which will meet the conditions, then they could choose their preference out of the bunch.

I suspect they'd prefer NT but they won't be able to meet the requirements (which should be as strict as they were for Tassie). They're by far the popular choice with the public, I don't think BigFooty or Reddit reflects ordinary Australians views. Second and third in line will be ACT and WA3. If no one's interested in WA, that leaves ACT as the frontrunner. But if for whatever reason, the ACT is happy to be the Giants bitches then SA3 could be a smokey. Again, it should only be looked at if they want it, not the AFL. As much as I think we should go to 20 teams, just leave it at 19 until someone comes forward with a proposal that can be met.

The AFL wanted GC and GWS but it's not clear if they wanted to be in the AFL to begin with. If the AFL is smart, they won't shove more teams down the throats of the collective footy world that no one is asking for. I love the idea of expansion but there needs to be demand, proof of demand, and a business plan.

Most of the third and fourth level of English league has average attendances in the 6k range.

Vast difference between epl business model and that. As would be in any second national division of any sport in australia.

And those English clubs have long histories and links to local identity.


Let’s watch it fail in a-league before we decide it’s a good idea. You can quickly put the idea on the spot by asking how the draft would work.

Any promotion relegation systems operating a draft anywhere?

Yeah, like I said, if they started out in the 80s with the state clubs, it might have worked. The WAFL and SANFL clubs and Tassie clubs and Southport and so on have histories as long as any of the VFL clubs do.

 

[peetoo]

I personally liked these designs.

View attachment 1904972

The right one was good. Hand a medieval feel

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

So it seems like we have rolled ACT and NT, and WA3 around a fair bit. Now that the NRL have the Dolphins, what is everybody's thoughts on FNQ/Queensland 3?

 

[Canberra Pear]

So it seems like we have rolled ACT and NT, and WA3 around a fair bit. Now that the NRL have the Dolphins, what is everybody's thoughts on FNQ/Queensland 3?

I don't see FNQ being viable. Cairns is barely bigger than Darwin, but less AFL mad. Townsville is slightly bigger again, but even AFL supporting.

I think any Queensland 3 team will have to come from Southeast Queensland.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

So it seems like we have rolled ACT and NT, and WA3 around a fair bit. Now that the NRL have the Dolphins, what is everybody's thoughts on FNQ/Queensland 3?

FNQ is a huge area, so I can’t see it even being in the conversation until Cairns has 400k+ people.

If (and it’s looking like a big if at this stage), Brisbane gets a new stadium, the Lions continue to grow until they become a bit of a powerhouse, and the Suns become a stronger, more established club; then I could see a 3rd Qld side being based in SE QLD in another couple of decades. This won’t be for the 20th license though, more like 21/22.

 

[Coolangatta]

So it seems like we have rolled ACT and NT, and WA3 around a fair bit. Now that the NRL have the Dolphins, what is everybody's thoughts on FNQ/Queensland 3?

Anything's possible, if the AFL want it to happen, but it's just as likely that the AFL want NT to happen, or a combination of both. It doesn't mean it will, though, and it'd be disgraceful if the 20th team didn't need to meet any conditions set by the AFL to gain entry just because the AFL want them in, unlike Tasmania who had to fight tooth and nail for it.

Going back to Cairns/FNQ, don't know how true this is, but apparently they're interested. The Cairns Post

Thing is, even if they are, a) surely they'd need to meet provisions set by the AFL, as such they are unlikely to get up; and b) there will be other bids, the NT already being one of them, possibly ACT, WA3, or SA3 later on down the track.

It's difficult to say at the moment. As I said, even if the AFL does have a preference for team 20, doesn't mean they'll get it. If, for instance, Walshawk is correct and none of the Eagles/Dockers/WAFL/WAFC want a 3rd WA team, then can't they squash it even if the WA government in an unlikely turn of events approaches the AFL or vice versa about a 3rd team? An ACT team only has a chance if the ACT government bid for it and so on.

If I was a betting man I'd say NQ has less than a 5% chance of getting up, unless it's part of a Northern Australia setup, which seems unlikely to anyone except Eddie.

FNQ is a huge area, so I can’t see it even being in the conversation until Cairns has 400k+ people.

If (and it’s looking like a big if at this stage), Brisbane gets a new stadium, the Lions continue to grow until they become a bit of a powerhouse, and the Suns become a stronger, more established club; then I could see a 3rd Qld side being based in SE QLD in another couple of decades. This won’t be for the 20th license though, more like 21/22.

But that's if 400k people in 30 years or however long it takes is going to be enough to sustain a team, notwithstanding the demand for it. As much as I'd like to think population matters relative to growth, I'm sure it does, and unless they think there's an exception to the rule, which would probably be the NT if they think they'd be popular on the TV, a NQ team doesn't ever look likely. If interest in footy grows in Townsville and Mackay then you'd have a good population base to draw on from all three, but so far, it's not looking that way.

I do think another Brisbane team has a chance if the stadium gets up. I agree that it wouldn't be the 20th team, though. Too soon and it's difficult to argue that the demand and capacity is actually there yet. Again, though, are club presidents in the future more or less likely to vote in favour of a 21st team? Because if they aren't, there can't be a 22nd, let alone a 21st.

If I were the AFL, once/if Tassie is confirmed (we still don't know how the stadium situation will play out), I'd come out and say we'd prefer to have a 20th team than not, but that it'd be up to others to approach us and make a compelling case before being seriously considered. But that won't necessarily be how it plays out, it wasn't Gold Coast or Western Sydney who wanted AFL teams, yet they got them. The AFL can probably make a team happen anywhere they want if they want to.

 

[Atomboy]

So it seems like we have rolled ACT and NT, and WA3 around a fair bit. Now that the NRL have the Dolphins, what is everybody's thoughts on FNQ/Queensland 3?

Needs to be Far North Australia, from Broome to Alice Springs to Townsville and ever where in between.

Fair old zone that one.

 

[Sewer de Lance]

I live in FNQ, and could eventually see a Cairns based team enter the competition but certainly not in the foreseeable future. There are more pressing issues up here, including a growing desire for FNQ to become its own independent State.

From a pure football point of view, they would have to build an indoor stadium to make it work.

 

[Coolangatta]

Needs to be Far North Australia, from Broome to Alice Springs to Townsville and ever where in between.

Fair old zone that one.

Alice Springs is not exactly far north though, is it?

And that's a hell of a lot of travel for the club. They'd need a main base playing at least 7 games like Hobart is getting for the Tassie side.

7 in Darwin, 1 each in Cairns, Townsville, Alice Springs, and Mackay is how I'd do it. Just Northern whoever. Still, that's a lot of travel, somewhat but nowhere near offset enough by the advantage they'd have playing in those conditions. But they'd be a yoyo team, fatigued and smacked on the road, Gabba like up invincibility up north.

Still, I'm gonna pissed if something like that happens and Canberra misses out, but it's not like they're way out of the public conscience. They are, at the very least, the third, almost second popular choice for the 20th team among the public, and close to the top choice on big footy and reddit where footy nerds have thought it through better.

 

[Coolangatta]

I live in FNQ, and could see a Cairns based team eventually enter the competition, but not in the foreseeable future. There are more pressing issues up here, including a growing desire for FNQ to become its own independent State.

From a pure football point of view, they would have to build an indoor stadium to make it work.

See, if North Queensland did become its own state, I'd rather them be team 22 than anywhere else. Keeps each state represented. Could be something like 7 games in Cairns, 2-3 in Townsville, 1-2 in Mackay.

Ideally, it'd be ACT, NT, and NQ. I'm not sure club presidents will be so keen on a 21st club unless it's the NT with big bucks backing it, that's why I've left out NZ and a tonne of other possibilities. WA3 and SA3 are out if they don't want jack shit to do with expansion.

 

[Atomboy]

Alice Springs is not exactly far north though, is it?

And that's a hell of a lot of travel for the club. They'd need a main base playing at least 7 games like Hobart is getting for the Tassie side.

7 in Darwin, 1 each in Cairns, Townsville, Alice Springs, and Mackay is how I'd do it. Just Northern whoever. Still, that's a lot of travel, somewhat but nowhere near offset enough by the advantage they'd have playing in those conditions. But they'd be a yoyo team, fatigued and smacked on the road, Gabba like up invincibility up north.

Still, I'm gonna pissed if something like that happens and Canberra misses out, but it's not like they're way out of the public conscience. They are, at the very least, the third, almost second popular choice for the 20th team among the public, and close to the top choice on big footy and reddit where footy nerds have thought it through better.

Just make it N Qld and NT then.

Call them the Queensland and Northern Territory Amber Sunants.

Should be able to get an airline sponsor ok.

 

[Sewer de Lance]

See, if North Queensland did become its own state, I'd rather them be team 22 than anywhere else. Keeps each state represented. Could be something like 7 games in Cairns, 2-3 in Townsville, 1-2 in Mackay.

Ideally, it'd be ACT, NT, and NQ. I'm not sure club presidents will be so keen on a 21st club unless it's the NT with big bucks backing it, that's why I've left out NZ and a tonne of other possibilities. WA3 and SA3 are out if they don't want jack s**t to do with expansion.

There was a rumour floated last year that the Norwood Footy club had entertained the idea of putting their hand up for an AFL license.
I’m not fully convinced of that working, rather I’m more inclined to think an Adelaide Hills based side based in Mt Barker would be a smarter option if SA3 occurred.

 

[Coolangatta]

Just make it N Qld and NT then.

Call them the Queensland and Northern Territory Amber Sunants.

Should be able to get an airline sponsor ok.

Or just send North there, Queensland and Northern Territory All Stars, red and white home, blue and white away.

I’m kidding, Roos supporters.

But yes, best NA proposal I’ve heard yet from anyone (yours, not mine).

There was a rumour floated last year that the Norwood Footy club had entertained the idea of putting their hand up for an AFL license.
I’m not fully convinced of that working, rather I’m more inclined to think an Adelaide Hills based side based in Mt Barker would be a smarter option if SA3 occurred.

I mean, you never know, but I think the only way SA3 as team 20 happens is if the NT bid fails and the ACT and WA3 aren’t interested.

I feel like SA3 has no chance of ever happening unless WA3 does as well, though.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

It really should be WA3.

But if not,

Maybe we could internationalise the game with the NMFC, ie the North Melanesian Football Club. Would be based in PNG with some games in Fiji. And a NZ team.

I know that is 21 but I’d reduce the Melbourne teams by one.