Past #22: Todd Goldstein - has advised NMFC he will seek opportunity at Essendon in '24 - 316 NM games/156 goals/'15 SBM/'15 AA/most hitouts in lge history

[Johnny99]

Sorry to inform you of this but the people that run the club don't give two stuffs about your disappointment or your super-coach mentality view of the football world.

Sorry to inform you but the number one goal of every AFL team SHOULD BE to win a flag.

And that aint gonna happen if we keep players like Swallow-Thomas and Goldy on the list.

 

[The Big H]

Much will depend on the mentality of the players as well. I'm sure that they know they will not be walk up starters and play a fair chunk of ressies. So I'd imagine it can go one of two ways; you accept your fate and go back and become an onfield leader/coach in the 2's and help out when needed at senior level, or you seek a trade to extend your career.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Sorry to inform you but the number one goal of every AFL team SHOULD BE to win a flag.

And that aint gonna happen if we keep players like Swallow-Thomas and Goldy on the list.

Yep.

Lists take time to build and have nothing in common with super-coach mentality.

 

[archereleven]

Sorry to inform you of this but the people that run the club don't give two stuffs about your disappointment or your super-coach mentality view of the football world.

If this is your standard response to anyone wanting to move players on for picks, then dont bother responding.

I mean, is it still an aggressive reset is it? Or have we moved into a true rebuild phase but are not prepared to gamble on moving on some veterans for youth? You must think Goldy and Spitta are throwing the team on theirs backs and heading the GF next season. *ing lol.

Your antiquated views on club culture and list philosophy got scuttled when free agency was brought in fella. You know when players started being mercenaries or holding their own clubs to ransom for more money? If you want to learn a bit about how sports which involve big money run these days, you might want to look up the EPL, NFL, NBA, MLB... Or better yet NRL right here in Australia. Not much loyalty, its all about the MONEY.

Im not saying trade them at all costs, im saying if we can get good value then we should. Or we can hold onto players a year or 2 to long, take games away from developing players and then delist them for SFA whilst we tread water once again... I dunno, im prepared for the club to be more aggressive after 2 decades of nothing, you?

 

[Snake_Baker]

If this is your standard response to anyone wanting to move players on for picks, then dont bother responding.

You emit a sense of entitlement that is foreign to the cultural creed of the NMFC

You may have serious gratification delay issues.

I mean, is it still an aggressive reset is it?

According to the coach, yes. The money will be utilised or it will go in to a war chest for a crack again next year.

Or have we moved into a true rebuild phase but are not prepared to gamble on moving on some veterans for youth?

According to the coach, no. The veterans will be utilised to lock up the war chest money for a crack again next year

You must think Goldy and Spitta are throwing the team on theirs backs and heading the GF next season. ruddy lol.

No. You must think that trading them is going to get us to the grand final in 3 years time. You are completely deluded.

Your antiquated views on club culture and list philosophy got scuttled when free agency was brought in fella. You know when players started being mercenaries or holding their own clubs to ransom for more money? If you want to learn a bit about how sports which involve big money run these days, you might want to look up the EPL, NFL, NBA, MLB... Or better yet NRL right here in Australia. Not much loyalty, its all about the MONEY.

Bullshit.

There is a salary cap and draft process in this sport specifically designed to wipe out what you are espousing and it works magnificently.

Beyond this, one of the few intangibles that can gain a club an advantage IS CLUB CULTURE

 

[ferball]

Beyond this, one of the few intangibles that can gain a club an advantage IS CLUB CULTURE

Probably worth repeating.

 

[archereleven]

You emit a sense of entitlement that is foreign to the cultural creed of the NMFC

You may have serious gratification delay issues.



According to the coach, yes. The money will be utilised or it will go in to a war chest for a crack again next year.



According to the coach, no. The veterans will be utilised to lock up the war chest money for a crack again next year



No. You must think that trading them is going to get us to the grand final in 3 years time. You are completely deluded.



Bullshit.

There is a salary cap and draft process in this sport specifically designed to wipe out what you are espousing and it works magnificently.

Beyond this, one of the few intangibles that can gain a club an advantage IS CLUB CULTURE

So we are aggressively resetting next year now? Oh, I missed that part obviously.

So, we tread water next season by keeping veterans we have replacements for, and then become ultra aggressive after that? What happens if we cant land A grade players next off season as well? Is that when our culture kicks in and gains us the required list needed for a shot?

Trading them might get us nothing. Trading them might get us a role player or 2. Trading them might net us a Fyfe/Sloane/Boomer? I don't know what future holds, but I'm prepared for a more aggressive approach and taking a chance...

You can call bullshit on what free agency will eventually do to AFL clubs all you like

We may have the best club culture in the world, but our list still isn't winning a flag...

 

[the big lebowski]

I see both sides of the arguement and think the answer is to be selective about how aggressive we are.

Veteran players that should no longer be best 22 such as Goldy, Thompson and Waite, hell even spitta can have a positive impact at North next year with no promise of a game, possible playing the majority of the year for north Melbourne in the vfl. They might also be able to play a role some weeks in the seniors protecting their younger replacements.

That said, surely there is a time where a trade can be of benefit to both parties. Goldy for example might be better off moving on for a fresh start. If that can move up our second pick pick or get us a second this year and third rounder next year, maybe it's best for both parties. Maybe spitta for a lateish 2017 and 2018 pick is a good idea for both parties.

We can't close our minds to letting go of guys that won't be around before we are looking at finals again.

 

[DarwinRoo]

Sorry to inform you but the number one goal of every AFL team SHOULD BE to win a flag.

And that aint gonna happen if we keep players like Swallow-Thomas and Goldy on the list.

And getting no continuity on the list because you are trading anyone above the age of 28 is not going to win you a flag either.

 

[DarwinRoo]

You know who decides if Goldy needs a fresh start? Goldy and he has said he isn't going anywhere so like it or lump it.

 

[archereleven]

And getting no continuity on the list because you are trading anyone above the age of 28 is not going to win you a flag either.

Yes because that's what is being said...

 

[DarwinRoo]

How are we going to be treading water if we play those guys? We finished 4th last when two of them played most of the season.

There is being aggressive and there is being stupid. All 3 are contracted so they actually have to agree and want to be traded. We'd be paying people to not play for us, which is ridiculous.

The club has enough youth and a draft to come without pissing off every senior player for speculative draft picks.

Treading water at the bottom is not going to win flags either.

 

[Le Grille]

I agree at this stage of our list management process no one should be guaranteed games and if you are out of form, you play VFL. I feel we have generally been too hesitant to drop players.

 

[Johnny99]

Yep.

Lists take time to build and have nothing in common with super-coach mentality.

You do realize its been 18 years since our last premiership ?

Since then, how many times have you said, we are good enough to win it this year ?

So obviously something has to change.

And a good start is to get rid of players that could, but are unlikely to lift us to premiership glory.

And we need to get rid of them not when they are ready to go and are worth nothing on the trade table.

But before they reach that point.

Call it a SC mentality. I call it making the right call for the future of the NMFC.

 

[Johnny99]

And getting no continuity on the list because you are trading anyone above the age of 28 is not going to win you a flag either.

Didnt say get rid of everyone over 28.
You said that.
I said move them on if they have been on our list for a long time.
Need to improve. Could improve further, but are unlikely to.
Unlikely to be part of our next premiership.
May still be useful to another club.
We may be able to trade them and get into a better position draftwise.
Do nothing and a year's time, are worth a packet of chips, and the club is no better off.

I am talking Goldy Swallow THOMAS

They can all go.

 

[Johnny99]

You know who decides if Goldy needs a fresh start? Goldy and he has said he isn't going anywhere so like it or lump it.

So basically you are saying if JK wants to come to North.

And GWS demand an experienced ruckman in the trade.

Then we say no deal, because Todd doesn't want to go ?

 

[ferball]

I agree at this stage of our list management process no one should be guaranteed games and if you are out of form, you play VFL. I feel we have generally been too hesitant to drop players.

Might be alot easier to do that with our own vfl side. Hopefully everyone trains together all the time and players know the people who perform get a gig in the firsts.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You do realize its been 18 years since our last premiership ?

No, I didn't.

Since then, how many times have you said, we are good enough to win it this year ?

Once. Last year.

So obviously something has to change.

Newsflash: We have blooded a dozen new players this year.

And a good start is to get rid of players that could, but are unlikely to lift us to premiership glory.

And we need to get rid of them not when they are ready to go and are worth nothing on the trade table.

But before they reach that point.

Call it a SC mentality. I call it making the right call for the future of the NMFC.

- Goldstein is well in the window for a tilt if he regains touch and our trading goes well.
- We don't whore our former captains out for cheap draft picks.

 

[Kimbo]

- We don't whore our former captains out for cheap draft picks.

Unless they want to be. But seriously, Spitta may wish to play for a year with his brother and, in the same vein as Brad I assume he recognises that he has been but a custodian of the club and that moving on may serve us better anyway. Depends on if/who we trade for or if we were, for example, to pick up Rockliff, as to whether his staying or going was seen as the best option for both. Spitta is pretty pragmatic but, equally, takes a lot of pride in his performance, so we'll see...

 

[Saintly_]

I don't get this "can't trade out Goldstein/X player" type thinking, especially for players at his age.

Surely it comes down to what the trade is, not whether we can trade.

If we get something we believe is more valuable to us than Goldstein/X player, then we should do it (if he/X player agrees).

If we considerate it equal or less value, then we don't and look for different trades, which is fine.

It's not "Supercoach" style thinking, it's basic/sensible list management for a rebuilding club trying to get better in future.

To achieve that sometimes hard decisions might need to be made.

 

[Kimbo]

I don't get this "can't trade out Goldstein/X player" type thinking, especially for players at his age.

Surely it comes down to what the trade is, not whether we can trade.

If we get something we believe is more valuable to us than Goldstein/X player, then we should do it (if he/X player agrees).

If we considerate it equal or less value, then we don't and look for different trades, which is fine.

It's not "Supercoach" style thinking, it's basic/sensible list management for a rebuilding club trying to get better in future.

To achieve that sometimes hard decisions might need to be made.

While I do agree with the 'culture' being something of value, what I detect from our current mindset, is being more open to possibilities that will serve the club, rather than the individual, more so than in the past. I don't think they'll compromise our great culture, but as you've highlighted above, it's a case-by-case situation, versus a blanket "out of bounds" approach.

 

[shintemaster]

Unless they want to be. But seriously, Spitta may wish to play for a year with his brother and, in the same vein as Brad I assume he recognises that he has been but a custodian of the club and that moving on may serve us better anyway. Depends on if/who we trade for or if we were, for example, to pick up Rockliff, as to whether his staying or going was seen as the best option for both. Spitta is pretty pragmatic but, equally, takes a lot of pride in his performance, so we'll see...

FWIW I thought Swallow was pretty emotional on Friday night during his speech - honestly thought he might drop a retirement bomb there and then. Could just be an emotional night for a myriad of other reasons or I may have read it wrong...

 

[RobZombie]

Unless they want to be. But seriously, Spitta may wish to play for a year with his brother and, in the same vein as Brad I assume he recognises that he has been but a custodian of the club and that moving on may serve us better anyway. Depends on if/who we trade for or if we were, for example, to pick up Rockliff, as to whether his staying or going was seen as the best option for both. Spitta is pretty pragmatic but, equally, takes a lot of pride in his performance, so we'll see...

Yeah, put it better than I did. If the club's going to be ruthless through the reset, you have to have an honest conversation about where Spitta's at and whether the leadership he provides in a diminished playing role is worth more than the development opportunities of the list spot. It just so happens that he'd probably be a good fit for GCS with their likely departures and his brother's there. Absent those circumstances of course you wouldn't openly shop him or pay him out. It doesn't do his legacy any disrespect to explore a move to GC though.

But this is the Goldy thread. I can't see how moving him makes as much sense if we're not giving up pick 4 and trying to scramble back into the first round. Keep him on and force him to coexist with Preuss. Neither Preuss nor Daw have a good enough record of durability to trust them with the #1 role.

 

[Johnny99]

No, I didn't.



Once. Last year.



Newsflash: We have blooded a dozen new players this year.



- Goldstein is well in the window for a tilt if he regains touch and our trading goes well.
- We don't whore our former captains out for cheap draft picks.

1. We were not good enough to win it last year. We scraped into the finals and got booted out in the first week.
2. Out of the players we blooded, they all are a chance of not making it. Thats why you need to go to the draft and bring in FA's and youth, to replace the ones that fall behind.
3. Goldy is in his premiership window. Will he play in a premiership at North ? No. But he might if he goes to Footscray. A team like the Dogs might be willing to part with a high pick to get a quality ruckman.
4.We dont whore our former captains. We leave them to rot in the VFL playing for Werribee. Or do we just gift former captains games every week when they dont dererve it? What's better ?

 

[ferball]

I don't get this "can't trade out Goldstein/X player" type thinking, especially for players at his age.

Surely it comes down to what the trade is, not whether we can trade.

If we get something we believe is more valuable to us than Goldstein/X player, then we should do it (if he/X player agrees).

If we considerate it equal or less value, then we don't and look for different trades, which is fine.

It's not "Supercoach" style thinking, it's basic/sensible list management for a rebuilding club trying to get better in future.

To achieve that sometimes hard decisions might need to be made.

The question that goes with these trades is does it improve the list and increase our chances of finals and more sooner or does it hinder that process. There are various other "intangibles", for example someone like LT staying as we develop an academy in Tassie that targets indigenous kids. Some of the ideas that get floated here just make me wonder wtf people are thinking.