95 and 2008

[pumped]

Was thinking last night about the thread re over rated and under rated players. This got me thinking about 95 and the fibre of players we had back then. Just about the whole side was great but guys like Dean, Sexton, Silvagni, McKay, Spalding and Brown seemed to possess in abundance what the present side is crying out for.

These guys were so desperate and hard and confident. Not cocky or arrogant but really focassed on getting the best out of themselves. Ratts was just starting out then but he too developed into a player that you would take to the trenches. Hopefully he can inspire this into the players he now coaches.

When I look at the present side I see very little of the mental toughness that the 95 side had. We have guys like Stevens and Walker who may possess similar skill levels but imo are miles behind the guys mentioned above for being true leaders. Murphy looks like he will develop into one and Simpson too shows signs but in general our mentally toughest players are not really high on skill. In fact our most desperate player imo is Bentick and he may not even hold his place. Further I believe we got rid of the other player who seemed to be showing signs of being a spiritual leader in Kennedy.

I truly believe that the attitude of the 95 side as much as it's skill created the amazing season we had. The present Carlton side is looking to be pretty talented. However to my mind this talent will not reach it's potential unless Ratts can develop the spirit that was so prevalent in 95.

 

[Artie Bucco]

If you're talking about attitude Walker would be the number one in our team. Most competitive guy in our team.

Yeah I know what you mean, Watch the 95 GF and you see the desperation and willingness to compete especially from Dean.

IMO we have weeded out most problems with attitude and commitment. Leadership is still a big gap to fill.

Hopefully guys like Simpson, Stevens, Scotland / Thornton (if they stop yelling) Judd, Fev can step up and deliver on field leadership

 

[Beloved]

Great post. I too have noticed a big lack in mental fitness. It seems the boys care about their hair now days rather than having the hardiness for the the ball that they should carry with them week in and weekout.

 

[HBF]

This is one area where I think Ratts can help. As has been said, he was part of that group that had it in '95, and if he can some how pass that onto this group, then our list will be better off for it.

 

[pumped]

If you're talking about attitude Walker would be the number one in our team. Most competitive guy in our team.

Yeah I know what you mean, Watch the 95 GF and you see the desperation and willingness to compete especially from Dean.

IMO we have weeded out most problems with attitude and commitment. Leadership is still a big gap to fill.

Hopefully guys like Simpson, Stevens, Scotland / Thornton (if they stop yelling) Judd, Fev can step up and deliver on field leadership

I really agree that Walker has an enormous will to succeed. However I don't believe he is stable or confident like the 95 guys. It is like he is desperate to prove himself and at times cracks under his own pressure.

 

[Marc Shmurf 3]

I really agree that Walker has an enormous will to succeed. However I don't believe he is stable or confident like the 95 guys. It is like he is desperate to prove himself and at times cracks under his own pressure.

You do realise that the kid Walker is only 21...

Our 1995 team had an average age of 25 or something like that. Our 2008 team will have an average age of 20 or 21.

Judd, Fev & Stevo < Williams, Kernahan & Silvagni ATM in terms of experience/ ability to not crack under pressure if you can understand what i mean

our top 10 in 2008 compared to 1995 (might not be completely right, just an opinion)
1. C. Judd G. Williams
2. B. Fevola S. Kernahan
3. N. Stevens S. Silvagni
4. M. Murphy B. Ratten
5. J. Waite P. Dean
6. K. Simpson C. Braddley
7. B. Thornton M Sexton
8. H. Scotland A. McKay
9. A. Walker J. Madden
10. B. Fisher E. Spalding
A. Koutoufidies
F. Brown
A. Christou

 

[audas]

These guys have it in spades its just that your a really bad judge of character unfortunately pumped. These guys are so committed, it just oozes from them. They have been through the trenches together and know that they are an emerging powerhouse who want to stick together, make the sacrifices and reap the rewards which come from such a process.

You will find that guys like Stevens who played on his brothers wedding day (?) and then continued to play with a life threatening injury out of a dedication and toughness not seen by most would be another.

I don't think you can question setanta, simpson, carrazzo, thornton, betts, murphy ....in fact most of the team really. The rest are still teenageres or have just arrived from other clubs. I think its just another of your strange psychological rantings from the boundary line which have no bearing on reality.

When will you move on from this ??

 

[Artie Bucco]

I really agree that Walker has an enormous will to succeed. However I don't believe he is stable or confident like the 95 guys. It is like he is desperate to prove himself and at times cracks under his own pressure.

Don't forget these guys..well basically the whole team bar Stevo has been in an unsuccessful team since joining the AFL.

Besides Fev and Houla none of the others we have drafted have played finals football. So yes at times they lose the plot, but next season we should see some stability in the side.

 

[DIG]

Was thinking last night about the thread re over rated and under rated players. This got me thinking about 95 and the fibre of players we had back then. Just about the whole side was great but guys like Dean, Sexton, Silvagni, McKay, Spalding and Brown seemed to possess in abundance what the present side is crying out for.

These guys were so desperate and hard and confident. Not cocky or arrogant but really focassed on getting the best out of themselves. Ratts was just starting out then but he too developed into a player that you would take to the trenches. Hopefully he can inspire this into the players he now coaches.

When I look at the present side I see very little of the mental toughness that the 95 side had. We have guys like Stevens and Walker who may possess similar skill levels but imo are miles behind the guys mentioned above for being true leaders. Murphy looks like he will develop into one and Simpson too shows signs but in general our mentally toughest players are not really high on skill. In fact our most desperate player imo is Bentick and he may not even hold his place. Further I believe we got rid of the other player who seemed to be showing signs of being a spiritual leader in Kennedy.

I truly believe that the attitude of the 95 side as much as it's skill created the amazing season we had. The present Carlton side is looking to be pretty talented. However to my mind this talent will not reach it's potential unless Ratts can develop the spirit that was so prevalent in 95.

At the risk of entering a psychological debate with pumped, those '95 guys you mention were all a lot older, mentally mature, more established in their careers and were used to on field success.

Most of our kids have been forced to find their feet with little leadership and against far superior opposition. Their mental toughness will develop over time, not overnight.

It's ridiculous to draw comparisons between the two lists. And I also think it's wrong to draw conclusions on someone's frame of mind by the way they appear to play on field. Were other 95 premiership players like Pearce, Madden, Camporeale and Manton any less mentally committed than those others you mentioned who were harder at the ball?

To criticise Walker is just insulting given how hard he works and trains and what he's been through on field, and also achieved in terms of development, at the age of 21.

When the present side's average age is closer to that of the 95 squad lets see. Likes of Judd, Murphy, Simpson, Setanta, Gibbs all have magnificent leadership or mentally tough qualities which will shine through in time (or in Judd's case already).

And I'm sure our young leaders will draw on these hard times to become more hungry for future success.

 

[DIG]

These guys have it in spades its just that your a really bad judge of character unfortunately pumped. These guys are so committed, it just oozes from them. They have been through the trenches together and know that they are an emerging powerhouse who want to stick together, make the sacrifices and reap the rewards which come from such a process.

You will find that guys like Stevens who played on his brothers wedding day (?) and then continued to play with a life threatening injury out of a dedication and toughness not seen by most would be another.

I don't think you can question setanta, simpson, carrazzo, thornton, betts, murphy ....in fact most of the team really. The rest are still teenageres or have just arrived from other clubs. I think its just another of your strange psychological rantings from the boundary line which have no bearing on reality.

When will you move on from this ??

And IIRC didn't Waite play the day after his old man died?

 

[Jeremias]

And IIRC didn't Waite play the day after his old man died?

Yes.

We played at Optus Oval (I think...), the day after Vin passed away, vs Melbourne

Wasn't at the game personally (was away on holiday), but apparently his performance was incredible...almost literally won us the game on his own, but we fell just short unfortunately.

 

[Aussie Joe]

This is the real value of Judd.

He will bring the team the confidence we need. Players will lift around him.

It is too true that Judd alone will not bring us success, but the way he can lift a team around him will.

 

[pumped]

Yes.

We played at Optus Oval (I think...), the day after Vin passed away, vs Melbourne

Wasn't at the game personally (was away on holiday), but apparently his performance was incredible...almost literally won us the game on his own, but we fell just short unfortunately.

Dont have a problem with Waite. Didn't mention him but he is one of the better ones imo. Age may be an issue with some although Murphy is young and already showing signs that he has the emotional capability.

To Audas I will always post what I believe. If you are correct and I am mis guided then perhaps one day I will write opinions that you approve of. In general I believe our onfield attitude and performance has been representative of the division throughout the whole club. Hopefully things will start to change.

 

[pumped]

At the risk of entering a psychological debate with pumped, those '95 guys you mention were all a lot older, mentally mature, more established in their careers and were used to on field success.

Most of our kids have been forced to find their feet with little leadership and against far superior opposition. Their mental toughness will develop over time, not overnight.

It's ridiculous to draw comparisons between the two lists. And I also think it's wrong to draw conclusions on someone's frame of mind by the way they appear to play on field. Were other 95 premiership players like Pearce, Madden, Camporeale and Manton any less mentally committed than those others you mentioned who were harder at the ball?

To criticise Walker is just insulting given how hard he works and trains and what he's been through on field, and also achieved in terms of development, at the age of 21.

When the present side's average age is closer to that of the 95 squad lets see. Likes of Judd, Murphy, Simpson, Setanta, Gibbs all have magnificent leadership or mentally tough qualities which will shine through in time (or in Judd's case already).

And I'm sure our young leaders will draw on these hard times to become more hungry for future success.

You may be correct about the age factor. However as an example McKay was spot on right from his first season and carried it on throughout his whole career. Hopefully we will have guys like McKay come along very soon to inspire the others. It is harder for young players to develop passion and confidence if there are a dearth of quality leaders.

 

[Smell The Glove]

These guys have it in spades its just that your a really bad judge of character unfortunately pumped. These guys are so committed, it just oozes from them. They have been through the trenches together and know that they are an emerging powerhouse who want to stick together, make the sacrifices and reap the rewards which come from such a process.

You will find that guys like Stevens who played on his brothers wedding day (?) and then continued to play with a life threatening injury out of a dedication and toughness not seen by most would be another.

I don't think you can question setanta, simpson, carrazzo, thornton, betts, murphy ....in fact most of the team really. The rest are still teenageres or have just arrived from other clubs. I think its just another of your strange psychological rantings from the boundary line which have no bearing on reality.

When will you move on from this ??

Yeah, so committed they all stood around and had a laugh with the opposition against St Kilda (I think, if that was true it was even more disgraceful, as it was Matty Lappins 250th). I think its a real problem with this mob. And its the older guys as well- Scotland, Houlihan and Fevola, that dont seem to give a shit whether we win or lose. You just have to look at Setanta O'hAilpin for the attitude we should be expecting forom EVERYBODY, not just him. Its not just because he is new at the game, its because he has worked hard to become a professional athlete and is determined to win for himself and his team. I dont see that from players like Walker, Russell etc. They just drop their bundle and walk off think near enough is good enough. Its not good enough, I dont care how old they are and it has to stop. (Other exceptions are Nick Stevens- really improved in that area, desperate to win, and Jarrad Waite- always going as hard as he can)

 

[DIG]

Yeah, so committed they all stood around and had a laugh with the opposition against St Kilda (I think, if that was true it was even more disgraceful, as it was Matty Lappins 250th). I think its a real problem with this mob. And its the older guys as well- Scotland, Houlihan and Fevola, that dont seem to give a shit whether we win or lose. You just have to look at Setanta O'hAilpin for the attitude we should be expecting forom EVERYBODY, not just him. Its not just because he is new at the game, its because he has worked hard to become a professional athlete and is determined to win for himself and his team. I dont see that from players like Walker, Russell etc. They just drop their bundle and walk off think near enough is good enough. Its not good enough, I dont care how old they are and it has to stop. (Other exceptions are Nick Stevens- really improved in that area, desperate to win, and Jarrad Waite- always going as hard as he can)

How on earth do you know what they think?

Purely your perception.

 

[Bluebear]

These guys have it in spades its just that your a really bad judge of character unfortunately pumped. These guys are so committed, it just oozes from them. They have been through the trenches together and know that they are an emerging powerhouse who want to stick together, make the sacrifices and reap the rewards which come from such a process.

You will find that guys like Stevens who played on his brothers wedding day (?) and then continued to play with a life threatening injury out of a dedication and toughness not seen by most would be another.

I don't think you can question setanta, simpson, carrazzo, thornton, betts, murphy ....in fact most of the team really. The rest are still teenageres or have just arrived from other clubs. I think its just another of your strange psychological rantings from the boundary line which have no bearing on reality.

When will you move on from this ??

That's news.

It's easy to say they lack mental toughness, but when you lose as often as we have, it can be hard not to "give in" sometimes.

Even after our stirring "biggest comeback ever" vs Bombers when Fev agreed with Andy Maher about "writing our own history", the massive buzz and confidence that came from that game quickly evaporated.

The guys are hard at the ball, but hopefully the more games they play they will start to believe that they can win.

Teams rate us on our recent performances, and that's fine. Its what we would do to.
IMO we have played below ourselves by about 20-30%. All we need is a spark (Judd?, Aisake) from someone who will take the group with him, and just sit back and watch us.

We are capable - we just have to learn how to do it at will.

9-15 wins next year baggers.............GO BLUES!!

 

[audas]

That's news.

It's easy to say they lack mental toughness, but when you lose as often as we have, it can be hard not to "give in" sometimes.

Even after our stirring "biggest comeback ever" vs Bombers when Fev agreed with Andy Maher about "writing our own history", the massive buzz and confidence that came from that game quickly evaporated.

The guys are hard at the ball, but hopefully the more games they play they will start to believe that they can win.

Teams rate us on our recent performances, and that's fine. Its what we would do to.
IMO we have played below ourselves by about 20-30%. All we need is a spark (Judd?, Aisake) from someone who will take the group with him, and just sit back and watch us.

We are capable - we just have to learn how to do it at will.

9-15 wins next year baggers.............GO BLUES!!

Maybe you should keep up with the news then. His father actually came to the club and alerted them about the seriousness of his neck injury as he desperately wanted to play. It was touch and go whether he would ever be allowed to play again due to this problem.

As for the rest of your post ......it is summed up in the supposition that Aisake will take the group with him.

The desperation we showed all year, and in years past, in playing with a deadshit team that is almost totally replaced from 5 years ago (bar 5) is fundamental to understanding that it has been our list which has been our down fall. Not our lack of endeavour. The guys have slogged it out for narrow defeats on end, heat breaking stuff. To continue to walk out there every week knowing that you are not even in the same league yet alone the same sport shows true grit.

The vengeance which is built up in these guys guts will be ugly to watch when it is unleashed in a furious act of retribution once the power to carry through the ugly thoughts which occupy the dark recesses of their minds is bestowed upon them. Make no mistake, the ten pound weakling does not lack courage for being beaten by the titan, quite the reverse.

 

[Hayashi_62]

I was expecting to see a ridulous thread about how the teams are similar in talent. Good thread, and i agree with what you're saying. Last year especially, it seemed that many of our games we lacked spirit, which is something that can make a mediocre team, winners.

 

[pumped]

That's news.

It's easy to say they lack mental toughness, but when you lose as often as we have, it can be hard not to "give in" sometimes.

Even after our stirring "biggest comeback ever" vs Bombers when Fev agreed with Andy Maher about "writing our own history", the massive buzz and confidence that came from that game quickly evaporated.

The guys are hard at the ball, but hopefully the more games they play they will start to believe that they can win.

Teams rate us on our recent performances, and that's fine. Its what we would do to.
IMO we have played below ourselves by about 20-30%. All we need is a spark (Judd?, Aisake) from someone who will take the group with him, and just sit back and watch us.

We are capable - we just have to learn how to do it at will.

9-15 wins next year baggers.............GO BLUES!!

If you believe we have been 20-30% below our best no wonder we have finished so low. IMO 20-30% is a massive drop in any team's output. I tend to agree with you and feel if we can lift to consistent 90% of capacity then the 9- 15 wins that you suggest is not such a way off figure.

 

[Bluebear]

Maybe you should keep up with the news then.

Interesting comment from someone who is wrong............read on.

His father actually came to the club and alerted them about the seriousness of his neck injury as he desperately wanted to play. It was touch and go whether he would ever be allowed to play again due to this problem.

I'm quite aware of that.

Just wanting to know how a disc pressing on a nerve that services the sensation and muscles of the arm is "life threatening"?

It's not that I disagree with your assertion. Playing with pain in the arm, and then, in the last few games, pins and needles in the arm (which is when his Dad found out how bad it was and dobbed him in) does show a lot of guts

then continued to play with a life threatening injury out of a dedication and toughness not seen by most would be another.

but I was pointing out to you that life threatening it wasn't, and you were overstating the case in a big way.

 

[True Bluebagger]

Was thinking last night about the thread re over rated and under rated players. This got me thinking about 95 and the fibre of players we had back then. Just about the whole side was great but guys like Dean, Sexton, Silvagni, McKay, Spalding and Brown seemed to possess in abundance what the present side is crying out for.

These guys were so desperate and hard and confident. Not cocky or arrogant but really focassed on getting the best out of themselves. Ratts was just starting out then but he too developed into a player that you would take to the trenches. Hopefully he can inspire this into the players he now coaches.

When I look at the present side I see very little of the mental toughness that the 95 side had. We have guys like Stevens and Walker who may possess similar skill levels but imo are miles behind the guys mentioned above for being true leaders. Murphy looks like he will develop into one and Simpson too shows signs but in general our mentally toughest players are not really high on skill. In fact our most desperate player imo is Bentick and he may not even hold his place. Further I believe we got rid of the other player who seemed to be showing signs of being a spiritual leader in Kennedy.

I truly believe that the attitude of the 95 side as much as it's skill created the amazing season we had. The present Carlton side is looking to be pretty talented. However to my mind this talent will not reach it's potential unless Ratts can develop the spirit that was so prevalent in 95.

Listen Pumped I don't want to be derogatory towards another Carlton supporter but please have a good think before you write a ridiculous post like this.

The main reason why the '95 team so was successful was because a majority of the playing group were all 200 plus gamers, mature, motivated, hard bodied, full of footy smarts, versatile, experienced players who had done the hard the yards and knew what it took to be win footy games.

Its not their fault but the greater majority of this team are kids in nearly every footballing sense of the word. How many of them have played over a 100 games, played in finals, finished top 5 in the B & F, taken on unappointed onfield leadership or mentoring roles, played in several positions successfully and not just the one the played in a U18.

All of the above hasn't happened because they haven't played enough games and at the same time unfortunately for them the club has lacked enough quality senior players to show them the way.

FFS give these kids a break. Their turn will come but making ridiculous comparisons between one of the club's greatest teams and a team of kids like is an waste of time. Geelong were the top team this year but can't you remember 5-6 years (and some may argue 2006) when their team was full of inexperienced kids and they played inconsistent footy despite having great potential.

The addition of Judd and fit Stevens will be great for this squad but top 4 finish predictions for 2008 by over optimistic Blues' supporters are bullsh1t and to be honest embarrassing to the more realistic fans amongst us.

While I am sure will improve our ladder position, the reality is that we won't be going any where the business end of the ladder until we recruit/develop at least 2 or 3 big bodied defenders and a ruckman, and yes Kruezer maybe the answer to that problem but it wont be 2008.

 

[pumped]

Listen Pumped I don't want to be derogatory towards another Carlton supporter but please have a good think before you write a ridiculous post like this.

The main reason why the '95 team so was successful was because a majority of the playing group were all 200 plus gamers, mature, motivated, hard bodied, full of footy smarts, versatile, experienced players who had done the hard the yards and knew what it took to be win footy games.

Its not their fault but the greater majority of this team are kids in nearly every footballing sense of the word. How many of them have played over a 100 games, played in finals, finished top 5 in the B & F, taken on unappointed onfield leadership or mentoring roles, played in several positions successfully and not just the one the played in a U18.

All of the above hasn't happened because they haven't played enough games and at the same time unfortunately for them the club has lacked enough quality senior players to show them the way.

FFS give these kids a break. Their turn will come but making ridiculous comparisons between one of the club's greatest teams and a team of kids like is an waste of time. Geelong were the top team this year but can't you remember 5-6 years (and some may argue 2006) when their team was full of inexperienced kids and they played inconsistent footy despite having great potential.

The addition of Judd and fit Stevens will be great for this squad but top 4 finish predictions for 2008 by over optimistic Blues' supporters are bullsh1t and to be honest embarrassing to the more realistic fans amongst us.

While I am sure will improve our ladder position, the reality is that we won't be going any where the business end of the ladder until we recruit/develop at least 2 or 3 big bodied defenders and a ruckman, and yes Kruezer maybe the answer to that problem but it wont be 2008.

Dear Bluebagger,

I do put much thought into my posts and for you to call what I write ridiculous is showing how little you have gone into understanding what I wrote. You are obviously very strong on your opinion and because mine differs you seem to want to discredit what I wrote. Obviously there have been and perhaps are still big problems at our club. Personally I believe that the club should be open to looking at all areas of possible faults if they are to improve. Posts such as yours imo are just thinking in one direction and blocking points of view that differ.

The club has for many years now lacked leaders of the calibre of the guys I have mentioned from 95.This is a problem that will continue unless more effort is put into developing character in our club imo. Great sides have great leadership and thus far this is something we have not had for many years. Unless some genuine leaders step up these kids will find it very tough to develop to their potential.This is what my post was about and why I referenced 95 which was the last truly successful time for our club.

 

[audas]

Interesting comment from someone who is wrong............read on.

I'm quite aware of that.

Just wanting to know how a disc pressing on a nerve that services the sensation and muscles of the arm is "life threatening"?

It's not that I disagree with your assertion. Playing with pain in the arm, and then, in the last few games, pins and needles in the arm (which is when his Dad found out how bad it was and dobbed him in) does show a lot of guts


but I was pointing out to you that life threatening it wasn't, and you were overstating the case in a big way.

Ohh gee I dont know pumpkin where do you reckon the disc is ? IN his spinal chord ? Continuing to play risks death or paralysis.....the symptons are what you describe as a result if this danger, similar to the sensations of heart attack and Cerebral Haemorrhages are often totally unrelated in appearnce to the root cause (loss of speech, tingles down the left arm etc).

Sooooooo, look forward to reading your retraction.

 

[Bluebear]

Ohh gee I dont know pumpkin where do you reckon the disc is ? IN his spinal chord ? Continuing to play risks death or paralysis.....the symptons are what you describe as a result if this danger, similar to the sensations of heart attack and Cerebral Haemorrhages are often totally unrelated in appearnce to the root cause (loss of speech, tingles down the left arm etc).

Sooooooo, look forward to reading your retraction.

Oh dear............clearly I'm out of my depth here.........you're knowledge of anatomy is clearly superior and I don't know what I was thinking.............I must bow to your superior knowledge and retract anything I had to say on this topic.







































































































P.S. I'm a physio, and that was the biggest pile of crap I've ever seen posted, without taking the piss.............stop making a fool of yourself before I have to teach you an anatomy lesson and embarrass you in front of all these good people.