A Hammering....

[Lukesta63]

Quite frankly I am sick of hearing about Carlton being a "quality side", a "top 4 side" etc.. eg this press conference with some st kilda player this week

''It was a really solid performance, we got a great win. Carlton are a quality side. We certainly wanted to go out there and hunt them, so it was a great result.''


Where is the evidence Carlton is a quality side?

We finished 5th last year and won an elimination final?

wooophed---do.

There is NO EVIDENCE over the course of this year (as a whole) that Carlton deserves to be labelled a "quality side" - an overrated side yes, but unless you produce consistently it is all talk. Just the same as last year - Carlton will beat some mid-tier teams and lose to others, as well as getting beaten by the better teams. Until they produce they are the great pretenders. That is what they are. Big headed pretenders.

We're second favourites for the flag,we MUST be a quality side!!
The winning teams will always label us as quality to make their victories more impressive.
As for the big heads,notice the games we are clear favourites are the ones we are made to look like wooden spooners!
Gee in 2-3 years Judd will be gone, and God help this mob then!!

 

[rampar]

Stkilda gloating about how they got physical with us. Media calling us soft, former greats calling us soft. Dip shit essendon supporters still gloating. If we don't come out and smash them against adelaide then it's over.

 

[Blue since 72]

We may well beat Adelaide, but why does it always take a pathetic, listless and demoralising display to get some hunger and desire back in the group?

I believe we have the game to match anyone, but unfortunately you can't play a dismal game in a prelim to harden you up for a GF.

Agreed. There is nothing wrong with the game plan, it's the execution of it that is galling.

Posted in another thread that I haven't seen the ball rebound out of our forward line quicker all year and that to me smacks of lack of effort and not just from the forwards.

Couple that with piss poor F50 entries and too many players trailling their opposite number to the ball and we have a team that well and truly earned the result they got.

 

[laminex]

What a disgrace, Watson was not at Etihad .

Joke mate Watson has a huge head that is the joke.

 

[Lukesta63]

Stkilda gloating about how they got physical with us. Media calling us soft, former greats calling us soft. Dip shit essendon supporters still gloating. If we don't come out and smash them against adelaide then it's over.

Spot on mate,lose against Crows and we're done! Drop to bottom of 8 and we'll be in with the Norths and Richmonds!!

 

[Peete]

All that has happenned is that opposition teams ahve figured out how to stop our previously easy winning of clearances and easy spread to our fast outside runners.

That is all that has happenned.

The effectiveness of this stopping strategy has been increased by the fact that Carrazzo - our best inside ball getter and stopper ha sbeen absent.

Meanwhile, Laidler and Yarrons absence has allowed our HB structures to become much weaker - no fast rebound and lower stopping power - therefore allowing oppositions luxury of playing behind he ball all around the stoppages.

In effect oppossitions have decided to play very defensive all the time - and in attack go down the middle via chips to advantage of smaller faster players - Essendon and St Kilda played exactly the same game.

So no I am not a buyer of the argument that we are soft - I think we have found it very difficult to replace Carrazzo/Laidler/Yarron and STILL play teh same game - against teams that wish to umbrella clearances and pretty mcuh paly +2/3 behind the ball.

Really the only response to this is to play a mauling game and beat these teams at their same game - just like we did to Sydney last year in that wet game and to St Kilda - and to Collingwood.

3/4 of each quarter shoudl be grind - because thats how everyoen is going to sert up on us- teh last part of each quarter shoudl see Eddie walker and Jeff able to do what they do - when the oppossiton tires. We are tryign to play loose fast footie - all the time - irrepsective of how stacked teh clearances are - without our bestr midfield in their and playing fewwer on ball players.

Mission impossibel aginst better teams.

 

[Big Sim]

Quite frankly I am sick of hearing about Carlton being a "quality side", a "top 4 side" etc.. eg this press conference with some st kilda player this week

''It was a really solid performance, we got a great win. Carlton are a quality side. We certainly wanted to go out there and hunt them, so it was a great result.''


Where is the evidence Carlton is a quality side?

We finished 5th last year and won an elimination final?

wooophed---do.

There is NO EVIDENCE over the course of this year (as a whole) that Carlton deserves to be labelled a "quality side" - an overrated side yes, but unless you produce consistently it is all talk. Just the same as last year - Carlton will beat some mid-tier teams and lose to others, as well as getting beaten by the better teams. Until they produce they are the great pretenders. That is what they are. Big headed pretenders.

How about that 10 goal win against Collingwood?

But other wise I tend to agree. We couldn't beat a quality side all last year and apart from a lacklustre injury hit Pies still haven't. Its all very well to hammer weak teams but we will be labelled flat track bullies if this keeps up.

Having said that, word is out that we wilt under pressure and EVERY team will now throw the kitchen sink at us. I can actually see a positive in this: if we do adapt to the high intensity and rise above it we will be well prepared for finals and the flag this year is well and truly up for grabs.

Proof will be in the pudding this Sunday. A must win game.

 

[Peete]

Proof of pudding on Sunday? I think not. Carlton has a great midfield spread and an ability to score quickly - when other teams try and play man on man.

We are not a top4 defensive side with Laidler/Yarron missing from back

We are not a Top4 ball extracting side with Carrazzo missing.

We still dont have an established KP #1 marking and goal kicking forward set -up.

We dont have the depth of players to call on when we get teh injuries we have.

So leaving aside expectations to 'win' this year - team goal was to finish top4 and see where that takes us. That doesnt mean Top4 was or is guaranteed.


Fact of thge matter is we have a lot of players with less than or around 50 games (only) under their belts - and we are forced to play players who are weak links weak in week out.

Too much being asked of too few - everty week. We are still a developing side with nu pressure from VFL playuers - all teh bigger bodies seem to be injured all the time.

One coudl argue, given injuries -we are playing - better than we should be expected to.

Still laughing my head off re 'resting players'.

 

[Poseidon]

I hate it when we make average/above average players like Milera, Saad, Crameri etc etc look like elite A-graders. Our transition to defense when we turn it over is disgustingly slow. I'm glad the media has jumped off our bandwagon for the time being, maybe it'll allow the boys to concentrate on playing with a bit of spirit.

 

[Chism]

hes 100% correct

In the last 2 weeks Yes we have been and this will sting us into action hence my starting of the thread and a discussion on it.

Sometimes a kick in the arse is always good to wake up a few passengers that are playing below par.

 

[mike ockerts]

Be interesting to see what McClure says tonight on 360, I know he has already labeled us soft after Monday nights game, but I hope he gives reasons why and where and what he believes we must do to correct them.

 

[The Coach]

I'm not sure if we have enough players in form to simply switch on our determination and go out and win. If it was just lack of intensity then maybe, but we are looking slow, surprisingly lacking in stamina, down on confidence skill wise, very reactive, and just lacking understanding about some of the basics of the game.

On our best days, we have an open forward line with Walker, Garlett, Betts, Waite having a field day one out but it is now the opposition who are clogging our forward line while leaving theirs open. Sure we can put an extra defender down there but unless he is excellent at reading the play (Laidler), the opposition is bypassing that player quite easily.

We deserve the media pounding, and I hope it has the desired result, but will it rebuild our system, our skills, our accuracy, our consistency and our confidence?

At least you know the bottom sides are consistently struggling, they are not holding anything back. I think the difference between our best and our worst just might be the biggest in the competition. Before we were in cruise control, but against the Saints, we were just outplayed.

I believe we rely on Waite as a keyforward more than any other team and yet he reminds me of your 3rd tall type and is horribly out of form (inj?) He had a couple of good games then against Freo he was woeful - we rest him v Giants and he has another shocker v Aints. We will need a Plan B this week !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proof of pudding on Sunday? I think not. Carlton has a great midfield spread and an ability to score quickly - when other teams try and play man on man.

We are not a top4 defensive side with Laidler/Yarron missing from back

We are not a Top4 ball extracting side with Carrazzo missing.

We still dont have an established KP #1 marking and goal kicking forward set -up.

We dont have the depth of players to call on when we get teh injuries we have.

So leaving aside expectations to 'win' this year - team goal was to finish top4 and see where that takes us. That doesnt mean Top4 was or is guaranteed.


Fact of thge matter is we have a lot of players with less than or around 50 games (only) under their belts - and we are forced to play players who are weak links weak in week out.

Too much being asked of too few - everty week. We are still a developing side with nu pressure from VFL playuers - all teh bigger bodies seem to be injured all the time.

One coudl argue, given injuries -we are playing - better than we should be expected to.

Still laughing my head off re 'resting players'.

The problem is expectation Peete. We have not won a flag for 17 years and when we bought Juddy it was with the expectation that he would be part of a premiership group - many would think that he only has a couple more years left as a AAA player

 

[1981]

I thInk teams are lifting for us and I also think we aren't goIng hard every week bec we are saving it for our own challenges like the Coll game. Not that this makes it righ of course. It's a long year and the players are waiting for finals. But the players need to note its an even year and if your not careful you could end up outside the eight !!!!'

 

[jonoman89]

Our midfield set up has been exposed. We are too offensively minded with the spread and the extra numbers the opposition have around the stoppages have restricted us getting the ball. St Kilda did exactly the same thing as Essendon. And I have no doubt Adelaide will be planning similar.

Ratten and the other coaches have a shit load of work to do to change our set up.

The ONLY positive I can take out of the game is that we, as supporters of the Carlton Football Club, are no longer accepting mediocrity. 2 years ago a performance like this would have been almost acceptable. Yet here we are being rabid dogs.

The media has caught on to this and are giving us the bake we desperately need.

That's the sign of healthy expectations and a healthy club culture. I hope the playing group realise that they aren't playing for any ordinary club and that the price of playing in front of 70,000 people every week is dedication and professionalism, something they haven't shown in a month.

The outpouring of anger from outside the club may be just the tonic the inside of the football club needs to achieve greater things. Here's hoping.

We'll win this week. But it's the consistent application of the values of the Carlton Football Club, the ones we all grew up with, that need to be shown week-in, week-out. No questions asked.

 

[GoBlues!]

Supporter expectations were unrealistically raised this year on the back of our first three wins against - Richmond, Brisbane and an out of form Collingwood with early injuries to key players.

The reality is we haven't changed or improved our team from last year - no new recruits that will have an immediate impact, unlike the previous year when we recruited Laidler, Duigan and Curnow, and also discovered Yarran off HB line and Walker at FF. These recruits and changes had a massive effect on the teams performance last year. With no real changes this year I cant see where the further improvement will come from. Maybe we are still in that 5th to 8th bracket of teams.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

All this crap about teams lifting to play us what a load of rubbish. Last year did you see teams lifting to play the pies and cats? If the answer is yes then I ask you why were they able to keep winning? I'd say it's because they were teams playing with hunger and passion. We certainly have the cattle to belt essendon and st kilda problem is most players play like they don't give a stuff.

This lack of intensity is unacceptable. It's sucking the life out of our season. When the going gets tough we pack up shop. People wanted to blame the injuries for the essendon loss because they couldn't handle the truth that we played shit, now where are all those excuses? We didn't gave any injuries in the saints game in fact, our best midfielder and forward should've been cherry ripe after having the previous week off.

Everyone knows we're soft now and we are going to keep copping beatings like this until we harden the **** up.

We've won hit outs the past month, yet we still somehow manage to keep getting thumped in clearances, why is that? Let me tell you, the opposition are going in harder and that's why they're winning the ball they're just relentless with their attack. If you watch the past 4 games closely you will notice that whenever we win a hit out and it goes to a team mate, the opposition still are the ones with the clearance. They know where the taps are going and hunting our players and taking possession because we're too slow to react. Our reactions are all panicky and they end up hb straight to opposition.

I would be ashamed to collect a pay check if I dished up this shit. The most frustrating thing is we all know they are capable of so much more. There are players in this team that when it comes to the crunch they just simply aren't willing to put their body on the line for their team mates and their club, they're not willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and I think it's pretty obvious who these players are and they've got a captain of softness who leads them with his shit example and that person is none other than Sir Bryce "spoon fed" Gibbs.

 

[SBYM]

All this crap about teams lifting to play us what a load of rubbish. Last year did you see teams lifting to play the pies and cats? If the answer is yes then I ask you why were they able to keep winning? I'd say it's because they were teams playing with hunger and passion. We certainly have the cattle to belt essendon and st kilda problem is most players play like they don't give a stuff.

This lack of intensity is unacceptable. It's sucking the life out of our season. When the going gets tough we pack up shop. People wanted to blame the injuries for the essendon loss because they couldn't handle the truth that we played shit, now where are all those excuses? We didn't gave any injuries in the saints game in fact, our best midfielder and forward should've been cherry ripe after having the previous week off.

Everyone knows we're soft now and we are going to keep copping beatings like this until we harden the **** up.

We've won hit outs the past month, yet we still somehow manage to keep getting thumped in clearances, why is that? Let me tell you, the opposition are going in harder and that's why they're winning the ball they're just relentless with their attack. If you watch the past 4 games closely you will notice that whenever we win a hit out and it goes to a team mate, the opposition still are the ones with the clearance. They know where the taps are going and hunting our players and taking possession because we're too slow to react. Our reactions are all panicky and they end up hb straight to opposition.

I agree with a lot of what you've said. When we brought an intense, unrelenting game, we smashed Cwood, they were ripe for the picking, but you can only play what's in front of you and we destroyed them nonetheless.

I watched the third quarter from Monday again last night. Pretty stark difference from the first part of that quarter. That needs to be the non-negotiable absolute minimum this week from the very first bounce. This is where Ratts and his minions will lift in making sure they run out breathing fire.

I said in the preview thread that our lads are a proud group and will have finally had enough of not performing to expectations. If they show up like they did in Round 3, we win. I'm backing them in to get it done.

 

[Peete]

I believe we rely on Waite as a keyforward more than any other team and yet he reminds me of your 3rd tall type and is horribly out of form (inj?) He had a couple of good games then against Freo he was woeful - we rest him v Giants and he has another shocker v Aints. We will need a Plan B this week !!!!!!!!!!!!!


The problem is expectation Peete. We have not won a flag for 17 years and when we bought Juddy it was with the expectation that he would be part of a premiership group - many would think that he only has a couple more years left as a AAA player

No doubt Five - expectation, hope, need, want - these are all very understandable emotions. However a look at what we have in terms of playing group versus benchmark teams like Geelong and ( hate to say it) Collingwood - sees us short a few Elite players - but more tellingly - too many average players - or despite their best eforts - weak links.

When Joseph dropped that overhead mark with Milne strolling towards him - Milne instinctively knew that his resulting goal underlined to all Carlton players that there are weak links. He rubbed Carlton's nose in it by attacking Joseph's commitment - but really he was saying - "you aren't going to skip away from us Carlton - we are going to hammer your weaknesses" - and they did - they sharked our taps or loaded bodies onto our first touch releases and won a ball they shoudlnt have - all the time- just like Essendon did and Fremantle did and GWS did.

Not only dont we have the players able to extract- we also dont have a midfield set-up able to accomodate the press all teams are using to stifle our run.

Hardness isnt about jumper pulling it is about being mentally ready and wanrting the pressure that will come from opposition - and managing it.

I think the midfield and forward set-up coiaching needs a kick up the arse. It is like - "assume we win the ball in this suituation - how many outside runners have we got and where are they"?
Problem is in making teh big assumption about the clearances - even with tap superiority - you still need extractors who have hard bodies and plenty of brains and skill.

We are short of hard bodies with skill and brains to extract the ball to advantage and use teh tremendous percentage tap wins we geet from Kreuzer and Hampson - we are in fact butchering the ball all the time.. This adds cumulative pressures in particular to all weak the links behind and in front.

I think about it this way..(without really wantiong to denigrate thes guys)

Bower/Joseph/Russell/Tuohey - unlikely to be goood enough to play in top22 for any other top 5 team at the moment.

First choice position players? Armfield / Hampson / Robinson / Ellard / Waite probably not.

Gibbs - doing what he is doing? - probably not.

So every week - we are relying on the brilliance of Judd/Murphy/Betts/Gartlett/Walker/Kreuzer
and the composure of Scotland/Simpson

About 8 players out of 22 - who can match it with the best from other teams.
A lot has to go right - for us to win carrying the other 10-14 players. and when you look at skill level, experience, body size of bottom 6-8 players- this is a massive disadvantrage to carry in against striong teams.

thats why the press at contests can work against us so well - we have a lot of weak(er) links with smaller bodies and much lower execution under pressure skills. In covering ofr these guys- our elite players get worn out. Every weak the real story is - do we get a match winning lead - before our top players run out of puff - and do our weak links cost us too much ?

and here is the rub - with average players - the bigger the body teh better - because even average players can be taught to go in hard and just stop the ball. Really that is what most teams doing bulking up their average player size - in order to at least ensure that they can absorb physical pressure of playing a scragging stopping game when required. Carlton has not implemented this approach.

A lot has been invested in skill and brilliance - and you ned this to be able to kick a score against anyone- and we can kick a winning score against anyone - however in a grinding mauling game - thats where we are beiong found out - and that is what teh coaching staff have to fix. Fix the stoppages - and pressure comes off defence - we have time. Pressure also comes of attack - because we will have time.

We need to learn to grind as well as the best - and have teh flash in our back pockets - thats when a prwemiership will come.

 

[I bleed Blue]

So every week - we are relying on the brilliance of Judd/Murphy/Betts/Gartlett/Walker/Kreuzer
and the composure of Scotland/Simpson

About 8 players out of 22 - who can match it with the best from other teams.

A lot has to go right - for us to win carrying the other 10-14 players. and when you lookaat skill level, experience, body size of bottom 6-8 players

Henderson and Jammo no good? Carrying players like Yarren aswell? Walker being carried with poor skills?

I understand your still hurting about the loss but please dont say we rely on only 8 players every week and carry the rest.


Start of the year everyone was spruking our depth and all of a sudden we only have 8 players who are any good.


We will see if your still dancing to the beat of this drum when we start winning again.

 

[Peete]

Henderson and Jammo no good? Carrying players like Yarran aswell? Walker being carried with poor skills?

I understand your still hurting about the loss but please dont say we rely on only 8 players every week and carry the rest.


Start of the year everyone was spruking our depth and all of a sudden we only have 8 players who are any good.


We will see if your still dancing to the beat of this drum when we start winning again.

Jamo and Henderson are doing a great job. Laidler is top quality. Yarran hasnt been playing - and he IS elite - with plenty of upside as well. I am not trying to be critical - just realistic. We are expecting too much from the top half of the team ( including Laidler/ Yarron/ Carrazzo/Warnock ) when fit - and getting too littel from teh bottom half of the team.

I hope we do start winning - because that means that we will have found a way arouind the midfield press, improved ourt ability to extract the ball to advantage rather than into opposiiton hands and make better decisions under pressure with the ball in attack and defence.

if we do this - we can beat anyone. Easier said than done with list of injuries we are carrying at the moment - and with current set ups.

Pretty scathing and rightly so. Hope the lads were watching.



* Mark Mc in this summary pretty much summarises teh situaiton as far as set ups and coaching goes re midfield. and yes Gibbs was a champion last year - when he was given a job on teh best opposition players - as a floater - he isnt delivering what he can..

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Henderson and Jammo no good? Carrying players like Yarren aswell? Walker being carried with poor skills?

I understand your still hurting about the loss but please dont say we rely on only 8 players every week and carry the rest.


Start of the year everyone was spruking our depth and all of a sudden we only have 8 players who are any good.


We will see if your still dancing to the beat of this drum when we start winning again.

Yeah I agree with this, we don't rely on just 8 players, we rely on 22. Every player has to play his part if we're going to win a flag.

Now injuries to Yarran, Laidler and Carrazzo have hurt us. So has the delivery into the F50 (another stat which we've won every week even in the losses). Yarran is such a creative player off half back, he can break the lines both with his kicking and his speed something we've missed since he's been injured.

But the top teams cover for those injuries. Look at the Eagles, it took them until they had about 8 of their starting 22 players missing until they finally gave in. And that's one half in one game only.

Currently we have what I consider only 3 important injuries/missing players. Warnock doesn't count for me, we've been winning hit outs, that's what he's good for but we have shown we don't need him for that.

Bower has disappointed me, I really had faith that he would be able to recapture his form from a few years ago with an uninterrupted pre season, but it just hasn't happened.

We have 6 back line players who aren't up to it against the better teams. Teams are having less inside 50's than us but end up with more scoring shots. A trend that has happened every week for the past month bar the GWS game and as for the Saints game we had one more scoring shot but 5 more I50's as well. It's as if every time they go in there they're scoring against us. In case you're wondering they are Joseph, Russell, Bower, Duigan, Touhy and Gibbs.

This makes it extremely important for the midfielders to pressure the ball carriers but with a lack of intensity this hasn't been happening and it's why teams are cutting through our backline in the past month.

We need to have these 4 players in our backline, it is a must:

Jamison, Henderson, Yarran & Laidler

Nick "Teaguey" Duigan has to find last year's form or he will be gone. Just what the hell was he doing against Kosi in that contest in the third qtr??? Touhy has got to be the man but he's too inexperienced for mine, he just needs some support from our other defenders but when you have 5 others who aren't playing their role properly it's hard.

And we need another small defender, maybe we should just slot Army into this role and let him settle. He has speed and attack on the ball, if only his kicking was half decent we could have 2 players able to break the lines with speed and kicking skills...

We thought we had a lot of depth, but our depth players like Russell, Bower & Joseph aren't up to it. Which is sad because 2 of those 3 have shown they can play but for whatever reason they have gone backwards big time. Not what you'd expect from a top 10 pick and a top 20 pick.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Jamo and Henderson are doing a great job. Laidler is top quality. Yarron hasnt been playing - and he IS elite - with plenty of upside as well. I am not trying to be critical - just realistic. We are expecting too much from the top half of the team ( including Laidler/ Yarron/ Carrazzo/Warnock ) when fit - and getting too littel from teh bottom half of the team.

I hope we do start winning - because that means that we will have found a way arouind the midfield press, improved ourt ability to extract the ball to advantage rather than into opposiiton hands and make better decisions under pressure with the ball in attack and defence.

if we do this - we can beat anyone. Easier said than done with list of injuries we are carrying at the moment - and with current set ups.

<* Mark Mc in this summary pretty much summarises teh situaiton as far as set ups and coaching goes re midfield. and yes Gibbs was a champion last year - when he was given a job on teh best opposition players - as a floater - he isnt delivering what he can..

I beleive we have a list that can beat anyone. Obviously it would be great to have Laidler, Yarran and Carrazzo all fit and playing, but unfortuantly injuries are inevitable.

Players you mentioned earlier like 'Armfield / Hampson / Robinson / Ellard / Waite' are all up to it. We just need to get the above the shoulders stuff right. Ratten needs to find a way to have the team fired up every week and for every quater.

At my local club our coach expects one thing from us - 100% effort for 100% of the game time from 100% of the playing group.


This is what Ratten should expect nothing less than from our playing group. We have the talent. We just need to get the intensity and effort back.

 

[redkettle]

Yep.....probably lots of reasons we haven't performed well over the last month but we did win in Perth against the highly fancied Dockers which however you do it is still a great win...pretty poor against GWS but still one by 10 and probably outgunned by a side who did play in GF's two years in a row not that long ago when we were pretty ordinary...Carrots, Laidler and Yarran are big outs 3 quality players who opposition sides have to work really hard to beat with there own quality players..we do look better with all three of them and whoever replaces them obvioiusly aren't up to their standard.....the biggest dissappointment about Monday was us missing out on putting some space between us and the rest but we can rectify that with a win this week and then some winnable games thereafter........I don't know if it is a matter of going out and mauling them (as someone put it)...because we don't have any maulers..we beat Collingwood by 10 so we are capable we just have to believe we can do it again.....​

 

[rampar]

Going to be a real slog this week. Adelaide will use the congested and contested ball and carlton will want to prove they are not soft.. at least i hope so.

 

[The Coach]

I think it should be pretty rare that we ask a player to soley play "hard tag' as this is too negative. Be responsible for a player but also give him something to worry about (Carrots is good at this). You never know if you are tagging someone if they were going to have an off day anyway so do not just hang your hat on what he did not do. If you are a good coach you can adjust the degree of tag that befits the way the game is panning out.

The way we set up on Monday we were not expecting a contribution in an attacking sense from Army (for 3/4s), AJ, JR, and a couple of others. You cannot carry that - we cannot even afford Jamo and Hendo to be locked into shut down only. We have seen both hurt the opposition but there are some weeks when they go back into their shell. Football is not like that anymore, we know it is so for forwards - they can kick 4gl but if not pressuring their man can assist in 4gls.