Toast A Step In The Right Direction

[sr36]

You are so disingenuous. My response was to Jmac who expressed doubt about the assertion that billions in funding were directed to indigenous communities and issues. If I was cherry picking I would have removed the reference to the effects of colonialism in the paragraph I quoted regarding the government spending on our indigenous. It demonstrated the fact we do indeed spend billions. Why would I include pages of further information unrelated to Jmac's question? You are always looking for the opportunity to grab a "gotcha" moment or infer ulterior motives rather than engage in a genuine discussion.

Why do you seem so desperate to somehow minimize the genuine attempts of our government to close the gap and help our indigenous people with references to growing population -3% or the number of kids? Why would any of these facts be of interest to a cold hearted racist government?

As for your tired references to me being a teacher, I'll rest easy with the lifelong friendships of many students and other precious fruits of my career as testament to my worth in that department.

My students and I watched the blue eye/brown eye experiment every year and had some wonderful discussions. My overriding feeling was being concerned for the poor kids who were used as guinea pigs without any prior warning or explanation. I've watched a fair bit of Jane Elliot and must confess she carries her own bigoted agenda and huge ego. She clearly saw the feelings of the kids in her care as less important than the grand statement she was making. I watched her work with staff of corporations in later years and her abrasive, aggressive attitude toward the people (particularly one demographic) was quite telling given her propensity to lecture us about bigotry. But none of us is without a flaw.

A study into her experiment drew the following conclusions.

Academic research into Elliott's exercise shows moderate results in reducing long-term prejudice[20][21] but is inconclusive on the question of whether the possible psychological harm outweighs the potential benefits.[22][23] Two professors of education in England, Ivor Goodson and Pat Sikes, argue that what Elliott did was unethical, calling the exercise psychologically and emotionally damaging. They also stated ethical concerns pertaining to the fact that the children were not told of the purpose of the exercise beforehand.[6]

Measured results of the diversity training for adults are moderate. The outcomes of a 1990 research study by the Utah State University were that virtually all the subjects reported that the experience was meaningful for them. However, the statistical evidence supporting the effectiveness of the activity for prejudice reduction was moderate; and virtually all the participants, as well as the simulation facilitator, reported stress from the simulation.[21]

Another program evaluation in 2003, conducted by Tracie Stewart at the University of Georgia, showed that white college students had significantly more positive attitudes toward Asian-American and Latino individuals, but only marginally more positive attitudes toward African-American individuals.[20] In some courses, participants can feel frustrated about "their inability to change" and instead begin to feel anger against the very groups to which they are supposed to be more sensitive. It can also lead to anxiety because people become hyper-sensitive about being offensive or being offended.[19][20][21] There are not very good measures of effects on long-term outcomes of these training initiatives.[19]

In a 2003 study, Murdoch University included the "Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes" exercise in their list of "both successful and unsuccessful" strategies to reduce racism, as opposed to, among others, more successful strategies like dialogues about race, and the debunking of false myths. dialogues and de[24]

I've actually seen the experiment done what I and students perceive to be effectively. Elliott did it brutally though in a way likely to create trauma. Her methods and observations were really interesting from a psychological perspective, but pretty horrible from an educational one.

 

[jmac70]

Are you disputing the billions which have been spent? The reason for the ongoing cycle of poverty and lack of education amongst our indigenous people is complex but has nothing to do with a lack of effort on behalf of both the Liberal and Labor governments for decades. Whenever large amounts of tax payer funds are available there will be corruption and misuse of the funds. I have a close mate who still teaches up in Darwin and it has been an incredibly frustrating struggle for years. The people must carry some of the blame. It is up to them to break the cycle of violence and alcohol abuse that is so rampant in many of their communities.

The kids are often raised in dysfunctional families and rarely turn up for school two days in a row. But anyone who attempts to address this and other realities is branded a racist so why would you bother to stick your head above the parapet?

I checked some stats on the issue and it said 19% of indigenous people live in poverty compared to 12% of non indigenous here in Australia. That's not a huge gap, yet the indigenous poverty seems to be the issue everybody focuses on.

As for the spending-here are the figures.

There have been significant improvements and money allocations towards the betterment of the indigenous communities in Australia in recent years. In 2017, $33.4 billion went toward government expenditure on indigenous Australians, a 23.7 percent increase since 2009 (taking into account inflation). That is $44,886 per indigenous person or two times the amount of direct government expenditure on non-indigenous peoples. However, Aboriginal peoples are still more than twice as likely to be in the bottom 20 percent for equivalized gross weekly household income. High unemployment and lasting impacts from colonialism have caused low income in Aboriginal homes.

I'm not sure why colonialism is still the cause of the low income of many indigenous people when black Americans were enslaved and yet millions of them live in the middle class and thousands are highly successful in business, law, entertainment, medicine and politics. That has always confused me.

Money doesn’t equal effort. There is still no treaty.
Self-determination, not intervention.

 

[jmac70]

You could change the date tomorrow and activists would simply create or invent another grievance and protest endlessly about that. Do you seriously believe changing the date would mollify the activists? Spending billions on our indigenous people is a far better and practical way to support them than changing the date of Australia Day. Perhaps all statues of Captain Cook and Arthur Phillip should be removed and any mention of them in school texts redacted.

I don't believe the indigenous people in the communities around our country care very much about that date. I think it's your latte sipping locals from the inner city who seem to get upset.

In an era where everybody and everything is racist the whole issue seems rather forced and tired. Why does it only come to a head in the few days leading up to our annual celebration? If it is a significant issue you'd think we'd be hearing about it all year round. It seems to be a burning issue late in January and then not so much.

Let’s change the date and see what happens. What have we got to lose?

 

[jmac70]

You could change the date tomorrow and activists would simply create or invent another grievance and protest endlessly about that. Do you seriously believe changing the date would mollify the activists? Spending billions on our indigenous people is a far better and practical way to support them than changing the date of Australia Day. Perhaps all statues of Captain Cook and Arthur Phillip should be removed and any mention of them in school texts redacted.

I don't believe the indigenous people in the communities around our country care very much about that date. I think it's your latte sipping locals from the inner city who seem to get upset.

In an era where everybody and everything is racist the whole issue seems rather forced and tired. Why does it only come to a head in the few days leading up to our annual celebration? If it is a significant issue you'd think we'd be hearing about it all year round. It seems to be a burning issue late in January and then not so much.

Why do you feel qualified to speak for all Aboriginal people? Do you realise that there are Aboriginal people living all around this country in many different contexts? My brother in law is Aboriginal. He doesn’t get any handouts.

You make so many generalisations that you seem to have a very narrow and limited view of Aboriginal people.

I wonder if you value the culture and history at all.

You seem to think in terms of expenditure but not on true self determination. Do you at least concede the hurt caused?
Do you believe that Aboriginal massacres took place?
Do you believe children were stolen from their families? My brother in laws mum was stolen and has no memory of her mother.

Do you accept this as part of our history?

 

[jmac70]

“I don't believe the indigenous people in the communities around our country care very much about that date. I think it's your latte sipping locals from the inner city who seem to get upset.”

domus
This is a ridiculous statement. Surely you can at least concede that the date of Australia Day causes hurt to many Aboriginal people? There have been protest since the late 30s
Why would you make such a statement?

 

[Markfs]

“I don't believe the indigenous people in the communities around our country care very much about that date. I think it's your latte sipping locals from the inner city who seem to get upset.”

domus
This is a ridiculous statement. Surely you can at least concede that the date of Australia Day causes hurt to many Aboriginal people? There have been protest since the late 30s
Why would you make such a statement?

evidently he's an ex-teacher or so he says..... so he's your responsibility. Maybe you should send him to china...

 

[sr36]

evidently he's an ex-teacher or so he says..... so he's your responsibility. Maybe you should send him to china...

I've got no idea what that means, but having been a teacher in China, I'm outraged.

 

[Markfs]

I've got no idea what that means, but having been a teacher in China, I'm outraged.

only the chinese know how to deal with domie... they'll put him in an airbnb with the weeegars...

 

[sr36]

only the chinese know how to deal with domie... they'll put him in an airbnb with the weeegars...

If his housemates cook him DaPanJi (big plate chicken) It might be worth it.

 

[Markfs]

If his housemates cook him DaPanJi (big plate chicken) It might be worth it.

I didnt even know domie had housemates. They should be given something in the australia day honours list next year.... if we have an australia day

 

[jmac70]

evidently he's an ex-teacher or so he says..... so he's your responsibility. Maybe you should send him to china...

There are plenty of teachers with views I don’t agree with.

 

[domus]

Why do you feel qualified to speak for all Aboriginal people? Do you realise that there are Aboriginal people living all around this country in many different contexts? My brother in law is Aboriginal. He doesn’t get any handouts.

You make so many generalisations that you seem to have a very narrow and limited view of Aboriginal people.

I wonder if you value the culture and history at all.

You seem to think in terms of expenditure but not on true self determination. Do you at least concede the hurt caused?
Do you believe that Aboriginal massacres took place?
Do you believe children were stolen from their families? My brother in laws mum was stolen and has no memory of her mother.

Do you accept this as part of our history?

Why do you call the funding or aide handouts? That seems to be a derogatory word.

I think our media presents a very narrow and limited view of indigenous opinion and I think you know what view that is, particularly on the ABC. There are indigenous people who don't feel the same passion about Australia day. Have you ever seen these people interviewed or given a platform on the ABC or the other tv networks?

I respect the fact that people of all races value their history and culture.

What do you mean by true self determination? Are you suggesting indigenous people should have their own government and legal system? I think that leads to further division in our country. Surely we are one people for all of our differences? I think our governments are doing their best to show respect to the indigenous culture and close the poverty gap. It is clearly a very complex problem.

I'm sure there were massacres in our past as there have been in every country on this planet. They were brutal and cruel as were so many aspects of life 200 years ago.

Of course that past mistreatment and abuse causes hurt as does the history of countless races on earth. The Irish were treated with just as much ruthless brutality by the English. Over one million of them were deliberately starved to death during the potato famine. The Jewish people have their history of abuse and murderous brutality as do the Armenians. The Chinese were brutalized by the Japanese in the most unimaginable manner. I could write countless more examples. Where does this end? Many of these cultures have never had their mistreatment recognized by those who inflicted the brutality nor have they been offered any form of compensation or assistance. We have been doing our best to right the wrongs of the past.

Much of the damage done to our indigenous people was inadvertent eg. their exposure to diseases brought here by the British. Many of the early arrivals like Cook and Arthur Phillip treated the indigenous people with respect and kindness. Arthur Phillip was speared by an indigenous warrior and refused to have him punished. He constantly tried to reach out and befriend the indigenous population. I think our history is as complex as any other.

 

[jmac70]

Why do you call the funding or aide handouts? That seems to be a derogatory word.

I think our media presents a very narrow and limited view of indigenous opinion and I think you know what view that is, particularly on the ABC. There are indigenous people who don't feel the same passion about Australia day. Have you ever seen these people interviewed or given a platform on the ABC or the other tv networks?

I respect the fact that people of all races value their history and culture.

What do you mean by true self determination? Are you suggesting indigenous people should have their own government and legal system? I think that leads to further division in our country. Surely we are one people for all of our differences? I think our governments are doing their best to show respect to the indigenous culture and close the poverty gap. It is clearly a very complex problem.

I'm sure there were massacres in our past as there have been in every country on this planet. They were brutal and cruel as were so many aspects of life 200 years ago.

Of course that past mistreatment and abuse causes hurt as does the history of countless races on earth. The Irish were treated with just as much ruthless brutality by the English. Over one million of them were deliberately starved to death during the potato famine. The Jewish people have their history of abuse and murderous brutality as do the Armenians. The Chinese were brutalized by the Japanese in the most unimaginable manner. I could write countless more examples. Where does this end? Many of these cultures have never had their mistreatment recognized by those who inflicted the brutality nor have they been offered any form of compensation or assistance. We have been doing our best to right the wrongs of the past.

Much of the damage done to our indigenous people was inadvertent eg. their exposure to diseases brought here by the British. Many of the early arrivals like Cook and Arthur Phillip treated the indigenous people with respect and kindness. Arthur Phillip was speared by an indigenous warrior and refused to have him punished. He constantly tried to reach out and befriend the indigenous population. I think our history is as complex as any other.

It is a derogatory word, I was quoting you.

 

[domus]

It is a derogatory word, I was quoting you.

When did I use it? If I did, I apologise because I have no problem with our indigenous people being given assistance.

 

[jmac70]

When did I use it? If I did, I apologise because I have no problem with our indigenous people being given assistance.

Kappa used it, apologies.
Although saying they are “given” money is much the same thing.

 

[domus]

Kappa used it, apologies.
Although saying they are “given” money is much the same thing.

Accepted. But given does not mean a handout. We are "given" tax cuts or given age pensions and disability pensions. That doesn't imply an undeserved handout.

 

[jmac70]

Why do you call the funding or aide handouts? That seems to be a derogatory word.

I think our media presents a very narrow and limited view of indigenous opinion and I think you know what view that is, particularly on the ABC. There are indigenous people who don't feel the same passion about Australia day. Have you ever seen these people interviewed or given a platform on the ABC or the other tv networks?

I respect the fact that people of all races value their history and culture.

What do you mean by true self determination? Are you suggesting indigenous people should have their own government and legal system? I think that leads to further division in our country. Surely we are one people for all of our differences? I think our governments are doing their best to show respect to the indigenous culture and close the poverty gap. It is clearly a very complex problem.

I'm sure there were massacres in our past as there have been in every country on this planet. They were brutal and cruel as were so many aspects of life 200 years ago.

Of course that past mistreatment and abuse causes hurt as does the history of countless races on earth. The Irish were treated with just as much ruthless brutality by the English. Over one million of them were deliberately starved to death during the potato famine. The Jewish people have their history of abuse and murderous brutality as do the Armenians. The Chinese were brutalized by the Japanese in the most unimaginable manner. I could write countless more examples. Where does this end? Many of these cultures have never had their mistreatment recognized by those who inflicted the brutality nor have they been offered any form of compensation or assistance. We have been doing our best to right the wrongs of the past.

Much of the damage done to our indigenous people was inadvertent eg. their exposure to diseases brought here by the British. Many of the early arrivals like Cook and Arthur Phillip treated the indigenous people with respect and kindness. Arthur Phillip was speared by an indigenous warrior and refused to have him punished. He constantly tried to reach out and befriend the indigenous population. I think our history is as complex as any other.

Do you accept Australia’s history of Aboriginal massacres?

Massacres: The frontier violence that's hard to accept

Hundreds of massacres left thousands of Aboriginal people dead, a history many Australians struggle to accept. A brave few started documenting what happened.

www.creativespirits.info

 

[domus]

Do you accept Australia’s history of Aboriginal massacres?

Massacres: The frontier violence that's hard to accept

Hundreds of massacres left thousands of Aboriginal people dead, a history many Australians struggle to accept. A brave few started documenting what happened.

www.creativespirits.info

You must not have read my comments in full. I have no doubt there were massacres but as to how many I have no idea as I have read conflicting reports. I have often read articles asserting the Tasmanian indigenous were murdered but disease was a huge factor in their extermination.

I said before, human history is an endless story of brutality and conquest. My ancestors were treated with ruthless, murderous brutality too. I have already mentioned the potato famine which killed one million Irish and forced two million to migrate. They lived in horrendous poverty and suffered terrible hardship. Much of this was a result of the shrinking land the Irish were able to use for their crops because British landlords took control of more and more land and enforced harsh eviction laws on the impoverished Irish.

 

[JB1975]

People speak as though the brutality and conflict in different contexts can in some way justify what happened in Australia. It can't, and those other conflicts and contexts are hardly a promotion of the notion of letting bygones be bygones.

The past is never really past, is it?

The Irish are a decent example. They revolted and won themselves a republic in the south. Republicans in the north fought their own campaign, which won them a peace agreement and more democratic representation.

Similarly, Aboriginal people aren't just fighting about old injustices, but are as much --if not more-- concerned with the present and future. A country has been built upon their country, and the original inhabitants are fighting for nothing less than their identity.

Some suggest that such struggles are 'divisive'. That's a bit of a joke, given that Australia was built upon the dispossession of Indigenous peoples.

 

[Markfs]

i think we already pay enough restitution to the irish when they come over here on work visas.....

 

[jmac70]

You must not have read my comments in full. I have no doubt there were massacres but as to how many I have no idea as I have read conflicting reports. I have often read articles asserting the Tasmanian indigenous were murdered but disease was a huge factor in their extermination.

I said before, human history is an endless story of brutality and conquest. My ancestors were treated with ruthless, murderous brutality too. I have already mentioned the potato famine which killed one million Irish and forced two million to migrate. They lived in horrendous poverty and suffered terrible hardship. Much of this was a result of the shrinking land the Irish were able to use for their crops because British landlords took control of more and more land and enforced harsh eviction laws on the impoverished Irish.

This is where you lose me. This need to compare your cultural history to the Aboriginal people.
Why?
My Scottish heritage is much the same as your Irish. Full of death and suffering. It has no bearing on our discussion about Aboriginal suffering.

Why?

Because for 50,000 years this land has been cared for by the First Australians.

50,000 years.

It took less than 200 to destroy it.

It’s beyond comprehension.

FFS, why is changing the date of our national day so hard?

 

[sr36]

This is where you lose me. This need to compare your cultural history to the Aboriginal people.
Why?
My Scottish heritage is much the same as your Irish. Full of death and suffering. It has no bearing on our discussion about Aboriginal suffering.

Why?

Because for 50,000 years this land has been cared for by the First Australians.

50,000 years.

Invasions are the history of every country, and that most likely includes Australia before 1788. It's the outrageous discrimination that followed that needs to be overcome.

 

[jmac70]

Invasions are the history of every country, and that most likely includes Australia before 1788. It's the outrageous discrimination that followed that needs to be overcome.

Precisely.

 

[domus]

This is where you lose me. This need to compare your cultural history to the Aboriginal people.
Why?
My Scottish heritage is much the same as your Irish. Full of death and suffering. It has no bearing on our discussion about Aboriginal suffering.

Why?

Because for 50,000 years this land has been cared for by the First Australians.

50,000 years.

It took less than 200 to destroy it.

It’s beyond comprehension.

FFS, why is changing the date of our national day so hard?

200 years to destroy Australia? Are you serious? We are living in the very best era in human history. Do you think our indigenous people or any other people for that matter would be longing for a return to the days when there were no pain killers or modern medical knowledge which has seen deadly disease become curable, sight restored to the blind, hearing restored to the deaf, functioning limbs for those with amputations, clean running water, electricity, warmth and shelter, education, cars, buses and trains, mobile phones etc..

Why are other cultures/races not allowed to look back at their history of oppression and brutal treatment?

 

[sr36]

200 years to destroy Australia? Are you serious? We are living in the very best era in human history. Do you think our indigenous people or any other people for that matter would be longing for a return to the days when there were no pain killers or modern medical knowledge which has seen deadly disease become curable, sight restored to the blind, hearing restored to the deaf, functioning limbs for those with amputations, clean running water, electricity, warmth and shelter, education, cars, buses and trains, mobile phones etc..

Why are other cultures/races not allowed to look back at their history of oppression and brutal treatment?

Agree with you. The world's not a Disney movie with pure heroes and pure villains. The English settlers built a fabulous nation and did some despicable things. It's not one or the other - it's both.