More trying to make the case for neutrality than solve the world's problems
A thread on politics- have some balls and post
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Long range anti air technology advances and whatever the hell else is going on led them to make their decision which I'm sure wasn't taken lightly.
Again I'm for neutrality, time should reveal the real motivators
In simple terms the plan was to invade & occupy Ukraine, oust the existing government & put in place a pro Russian puppet government, thus stopping Ukraine from joining the EU & NATO. (Edit: I'm sure there are other factors at play).
The US currently have AirForce bases to use in Estonia, Lithuania, Poland & Romania. I'm sure there are many more NATO bases. Not sure where the 130 bases on Russia's border are.
"Edit: I'm sure there are other factors at play" really says it all. Maybe we should just leave it to them and stop sending them.money, equipment and people
Lol, no. Not at all.
Do you think Russia would've invaded if they thought it was a fair fight?
If they steamrolled Ukraine, they'd stop there right?
Of course they would...
If you're relying on neutrality & diplomacy & the hope that other countries are good to their word, you're going to be ripe pickings.
You can add Vietnam to the list of countries where there's significant support for Ukraine from the general populace.
I'd hazard to guess there would be similar sentiment throughout most of South East Asia.
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I believe it is peace for our time, go home and get a nice quiet sleep.
Worked out well..
Viceregal
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Actually it was in the next line and I interpreted it to refer to the whole of Putin's speech not just the one liner in the previous sentence...
And in light of the second line let's have a go at the below one
... minus the twisting of course!In simple terms the plan was to invade & occupy the Donbass (and the Crimea) having ousted the existing government in 2014 and replaced it with an anti-Russian puppet government thus stopping the Donbass from choosing their allegience (like the Crimea did) according to the Minsk accords and stopping the Ukraine from joining Russia in the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) and the Collective Security Teaty Organisation (CSTO). (of course there were other factors at play)
The USA have a history of installing puppets all over the world, covertly and overtly, most of it not done for altruistic reasons... it's all about resources, geopolitical posturing and feeding the military industrial complex. The USA does plenty of paternalistic "democracy spreading".
I simple terms it was to invade eastern regions of Ukraine to ensure Europe is dependent on Russia gas and to crystallise the annexation of Crimea to ensure access to black sea. i can see it from Russian and Ukraine POV. NATO, historical connections and threat of economic coercion against russia
Sausages
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The US has over 100 bases in Germany alone, according to Overseas Base Realignment and Closure Coalition Website - but many of those would be admin/residential/suspected covert bases
On Military Bases Overseas – AF, BE, BG, BH, CU, DE, GL, GR, GU, IO (which is a US Military website), the number is 21
Other websites put the figure between those extremes.
The reality as I understand it is this:
The projected media view is, largely, RUS invaded UKR.
Now, from there, you can go two ways.
You can accept that proposition and stop reading and that accords with non-critical assessment, both leftwing and right, of the conflict - UKR is good, Russia is bad.
The extreme views, both left AND right are thus: if you accept the existence of globalist conspiracy theories, then the USA is blowing billions of dollars endeavouring to fight a proxy war to gain control of UKR vast resources (here is just mineral resources, but they also possess vast food growing areas) There is a great deal of evidence for this, from both left and right wing journalists, politicians and academics. (Your best source for this would be Twitter journalists like Mary Kostakidis, Caitlin Johnstone et al).
it is worth noting here that only this week, Donald Trump released a Trump for Peace video (approx 3 and a half minutes) where he ALSO claims much the same globalist corporatists as driving the conflict. And you're gonna have a hard barrow to push suggesting that Trump is "left wing".
The reality is NATO has expanded ever eastwards. (see : Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany - Wikipedia). From that reference, see the section titled "Later Developments and in particlular the statement - "four of them on the border with Russia."
Thus, Russia's claim that NATO is on their borders is true and valid.
This is CONTRARY to an understanding between NATO and RUS following the fall of the Berlin Wall (see: Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany - Wikipedia - scroll down to the section marked "Russian claims of unwritten assurances). You need to appreciate that at the time, Eastern European countries (ie, those to the east of East Germany) were allied under the Warsaw Pact - hence, communist and thus anti-NATO by definition and application of that Pact.
It is worth noting that two quotes are attributed to Gorbachev and Shevardnadze - both of whom are long since dead and thus those comments pre-date any recent conflicts or political spin.
If you search for reports on UKR from prior to the conflict, you will see that many Western news outlets decried it as a corrupt, failing country (see The Guardian headline from 2014). Zelensky has ties to far right nationalist groups politically, but even earlier than that, when he was a comedian, he is on record as saying speaking Russian in UKR isn't a bad thing, they are our cousins etc. So, Zelensky flip flops about, from socialist to fascist and thus ANY suggestion he is a "good guy" must be treated with some level of skepticism.
In short - the US/NATO are desperately trying to goad RUS into expanding the conflict (see Biden May 2022 "we send tanks = WW3" and 1 month ago "we are sending tanks") and will happily paint the UKR as "valiant defenders of democracy" when the reality is vastly different - UKR under Zelensky has outlawed free press and right to unionise for example.
PBD, a nominally "open minded" Youtube/.podcaster (can google, run by Patrck Bet-David who is anything but "left wing") but tends more heavily to the right wing, also recently did a show where they outlined the SAME ISSUES as the leftwing journos I mentioned above - they went further and named some of the corporations who have been paving the way since the middle of the last decade who will go in and profit following a peace deal - JP Morgan and Blackrock amongst them.
In short, if you wish to see the world as good vs bad, go for it. But the evidence doesn't in any way support that, irrespective of left or right bias.
On Military Bases Overseas – AF, BE, BG, BH, CU, DE, GL, GR, GU, IO (which is a US Military website), the number is 21
Other websites put the figure between those extremes.
The reality as I understand it is this:
The projected media view is, largely, RUS invaded UKR.
Now, from there, you can go two ways.
You can accept that proposition and stop reading and that accords with non-critical assessment, both leftwing and right, of the conflict - UKR is good, Russia is bad.
The extreme views, both left AND right are thus: if you accept the existence of globalist conspiracy theories, then the USA is blowing billions of dollars endeavouring to fight a proxy war to gain control of UKR vast resources (here is just mineral resources, but they also possess vast food growing areas) There is a great deal of evidence for this, from both left and right wing journalists, politicians and academics. (Your best source for this would be Twitter journalists like Mary Kostakidis, Caitlin Johnstone et al).
it is worth noting here that only this week, Donald Trump released a Trump for Peace video (approx 3 and a half minutes) where he ALSO claims much the same globalist corporatists as driving the conflict. And you're gonna have a hard barrow to push suggesting that Trump is "left wing".
The reality is NATO has expanded ever eastwards. (see : Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany - Wikipedia). From that reference, see the section titled "Later Developments and in particlular the statement - "four of them on the border with Russia."
Thus, Russia's claim that NATO is on their borders is true and valid.
This is CONTRARY to an understanding between NATO and RUS following the fall of the Berlin Wall (see: Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany - Wikipedia - scroll down to the section marked "Russian claims of unwritten assurances). You need to appreciate that at the time, Eastern European countries (ie, those to the east of East Germany) were allied under the Warsaw Pact - hence, communist and thus anti-NATO by definition and application of that Pact.
It is worth noting that two quotes are attributed to Gorbachev and Shevardnadze - both of whom are long since dead and thus those comments pre-date any recent conflicts or political spin.
If you search for reports on UKR from prior to the conflict, you will see that many Western news outlets decried it as a corrupt, failing country (see The Guardian headline from 2014). Zelensky has ties to far right nationalist groups politically, but even earlier than that, when he was a comedian, he is on record as saying speaking Russian in UKR isn't a bad thing, they are our cousins etc. So, Zelensky flip flops about, from socialist to fascist and thus ANY suggestion he is a "good guy" must be treated with some level of skepticism.
In short - the US/NATO are desperately trying to goad RUS into expanding the conflict (see Biden May 2022 "we send tanks = WW3" and 1 month ago "we are sending tanks") and will happily paint the UKR as "valiant defenders of democracy" when the reality is vastly different - UKR under Zelensky has outlawed free press and right to unionise for example.
PBD, a nominally "open minded" Youtube/.podcaster (can google, run by Patrck Bet-David who is anything but "left wing") but tends more heavily to the right wing, also recently did a show where they outlined the SAME ISSUES as the leftwing journos I mentioned above - they went further and named some of the corporations who have been paving the way since the middle of the last decade who will go in and profit following a peace deal - JP Morgan and Blackrock amongst them.
In short, if you wish to see the world as good vs bad, go for it. But the evidence doesn't in any way support that, irrespective of left or right bias.
Superb post Sausages, just about spot on with how I would have put it if I was a decent wordsmith, if you solely watch MSM you get the clickbait, non nuanced version of events. I watch Patrick Bet-David semi regularly... I like him on most subjects, Seymour Hersh, Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi are others who are fair dinkum long form investigative journalists that give views on Russia/Ukraine that are worth a look.
FWIW and IMO it is as plain as the nose on your face that the USA was the prime perpetrator of the Nord Stream 2 sabotage, plenty of footage out there with US government sources(including Joe Biden) saying/threatening as much before it was done.
Sausages
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Cheers mate The most important thing in all this is to NOT live in an echo chamber - politically, I'm happily ensconced for my adult life on the left, but it's vital to inform from those on the other side of the political divide, to gain a more balanced view. Just because someone is politically opposite doesn't mean there's not something useful/valid/worth consideration in what they say.
And besides, the simple fact is it is no longer "left vs right" - it is top vs bottom. But the media likes to keep framing everything in the left/right dichotomy to keep left AND right from uniting against the top.
I chat with a retired USAF veteran on Twitter. He lives in Arizona, is a republican, pro-Trump, pro-MAGA etc - my theoretical political opposite in other words - and yet we agree on a great many things.
I put aside what I see as minor issues (gender stuff, covid stuff etc) to focus simply on the wealth/power divide that increasingly widens to the detriment of everyone at the base of the pyramid. My personal position on those isn't important - what's important to me is highlighting the fact that the left and right are equally disempowered and disenfranchised and those issues are used to keep us arguing from left/right angles in a deliberate effort to distract from left-right solidarity.
In short - we can have the anti-global corporatist revolution FIRST, and then worry about the other stuff
The most important thing in all this is to NOT live in an echo chamber - politically, I'm happily ensconced for my adult life on the left, but it's vital to inform from those on the other side of the political divide, to gain a more balanced view. Just because someone is politically opposite doesn't mean there's not something useful/valid/worth consideration in what they say.And besides, the simple fact is it is no longer "left vs right" - it is top vs bottom. But the media likes to keep framing everything in the left/right dichotomy to keep left AND right from uniting against the top.
I chat with a retired USAF veteran on Twitter. He lives in Arizona, is a republican, pro-Trump, pro-MAGA etc - my theoretical political opposite in other words - and yet we agree on a great many things.
I put aside what I see as minor issues (gender stuff, covid stuff etc) to focus simply on the wealth/power divide that increasingly widens to the detriment of everyone at the base of the pyramid. My personal position on those isn't important - what's important to me is highlighting the fact that the left and right are equally disempowered and disenfranchised and those issues are used to keep us arguing from left/right angles in a deliberate effort to distract from left-right solidarity.
In short - we can have the anti-global corporatist revolution FIRST, and then worry about the other stuff
Nailed it again Sausages. Divide and conquer is an age old proven successful tactic.Cheers mate
And besides, the simple fact is it is no longer "left vs right" - it is top vs bottom. But the media likes to keep framing everything in the left/right dichotomy to keep left AND right from uniting against the top.
I chat with a retired USAF veteran on Twitter. He lives in Arizona, is a republican, pro-Trump, pro-MAGA etc - my theoretical political opposite in other words - and yet we agree on a great many things.
I put aside what I see as minor issues (gender stuff, covid stuff etc) to focus simply on the wealth/power divide that increasingly widens to the detriment of everyone at the base of the pyramid. My personal position on those isn't important - what's important to me is highlighting the fact that the left and right are equally disempowered and disenfranchised and those issues are used to keep us arguing from left/right angles in a deliberate effort to distract from left-right solidarity.
In short - we can have the anti-global corporatist revolution FIRST, and then worry about the other stuff
I would describe myself as left leaning as well but more anti establishment though. IMO what we basically have now re world governance is a government/big business/big finance partnership... governments tend to their benefactors first and foremost, the plebs are an afterthought when those pesky elections come around.
It amazes me that generally speaking the left in the USA is now pro war and the right anti war, you could bet your bottom dollar if Buffoon Trump was the President and they were funding the Ukraine war the left would be rabidly anti war and the right equally pro war.
________________________________________________________
Anyway that's enough on the unimportant stuff, I am off to a more serious event now ie. watching my grandson play AFL at Sandgate for the mighty
Sausages
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I'm just copy-pasting this from Twitter - for those that don't use that platform.
For me, it sums up my approach to life, community and my engagement with the world very nicely:
There was a farmer who grew excellent quality corn. Every year he won the award for the best grown corn. One year a newspaper reporter interviewed him and learned something interesting about how he grew it. The reporter discovered that the farmer shared his seed corn with his neighbors. “How can you afford to share your best seed corn with your neighbors when they are entering corn in competition with yours each year?” the reporter asked. “Why sir,” said the farmer, “Didn’t you know? The wind picks up pollen from the ripening corn and swirls it from from field to field. If my neighbors grow inferior corn, cross-pollination will steadily degrade the quality of my corn. If I am to grow good corn, I must help my neighbors grow good corn.” So is with our lives... Those who want to live meaningfully and well must help enrich the lives of others, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others find happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all...
Credit: https://twitter.com/cajun_thomas
For me, it sums up my approach to life, community and my engagement with the world very nicely:
There was a farmer who grew excellent quality corn. Every year he won the award for the best grown corn. One year a newspaper reporter interviewed him and learned something interesting about how he grew it. The reporter discovered that the farmer shared his seed corn with his neighbors. “How can you afford to share your best seed corn with your neighbors when they are entering corn in competition with yours each year?” the reporter asked. “Why sir,” said the farmer, “Didn’t you know? The wind picks up pollen from the ripening corn and swirls it from from field to field. If my neighbors grow inferior corn, cross-pollination will steadily degrade the quality of my corn. If I am to grow good corn, I must help my neighbors grow good corn.” So is with our lives... Those who want to live meaningfully and well must help enrich the lives of others, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others find happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all...
Credit: https://twitter.com/cajun_thomas
Sausages
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A good start and what my previous 2 posts touch upon - special interest story from The Guardian International Edition
The conclusion reached is exactly what we need more people to understand.
The conclusion reached is exactly what we need more people to understand.
Viceregal
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That is why there is a Society, Religion and Policitcs Board (for main board equivalent) and this thread on our board.Yes, it's very clear that BF should really only be used to discuss footy lol.
I shall be taking that advice forthwith.
As long as you keep it here, keep it civil (and are prepared to defend your position
) it's all good.Sometimes there are threads that are about specific subjects but politics / world view differences get involved (eg covid, hawthorn review etc) but the balance there is more mod related.**
But yes sometimes you read something and you know it is based on inaccurate information or incomplete etc but when you look ahead to the time it takes to put forward your case and then defend it back and forth you just decide it ain't worth the effort and let it slide.
** sometimes it can be a bit frustrating when an offical narrative is accepted as the 'truth' so one side gets a free pass and the other side has to defend their opinion (and sometimes to even express that opinion although this place is comparatively good for that) ... when emotions are high it is a bit like objecting to the Patriot Act post 9/11 or the value of taking aussie guns away post Port Arthur, or (historically) US responsibility for the sinking of the Lusitania or the bombing of Pearl Harbour just after each event ... more recently of course we have the whole response to Covid saga and discussing the US/NTAO/Ukrainian culpability in the current conflict in the Russian borderlands...
Can't wait for the first Aussie polly to go full crackpot like this. My money's on Malcolm Roberts or Babet.
- know the water you swim inThat is why there is a Society, Religion and Policitcs Board (for main board equivalent) and this thread on our board.
As long as you keep it here, keep it civil (and are prepared to defend your position
Sometimes there are threads that are about specific subjects but politics / world view differences get involved (eg covid, hawthorn review etc) but the balance there is more mod related.**
But yes sometimes you read something and you know it is based on inaccurate information or incomplete etc but when you look ahead to the time it takes to put forward your case and then defend it back and forth you just decide it ain't worth the effort and let it slide.
** sometimes it can be a bit frustrating when an offical narrative is accepted as the 'truth' so one side gets a free pass and the other side has to defend their opinion (and sometimes to even express that opinion although this place is comparatively good for that) ... when emotions are high it is a bit like objecting to the Patriot Act post 9/11 or the value of taking aussie guns away post Port Arthur, or (historically) US responsibility for the sinking of the Lusitania or the bombing of Pearl Harbour just after each event ... more recently of course we have the whole response to Covid saga and discussing the US/NTAO/Ukrainian culpability in the current conflict in the Russian borderlands...
a solipsism fallacy , Chief take note
i think besides the traditional Western bloc there has been volte face , a significant move away from the DC / ChathamHouse WesternConsensus-rules based order*
*whose rules
#JamesBaker×incomingPOTUSbillclinton
My mail was spot on wrt Russia and Benghazi , Ukraine can be seen in context before a Kagan Nuland putsch a decade beforeYeah I baited you in for abuse
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