Academy Watch

[mattsmob]

I must say that U17 performance was pretty poor all things considered. On that showing probably four or five Tassie boys you would look at before the Lions. McMillan the possible exception. Apart from Fletcher, it would seem not a lot of promise in next year's Academy prospects.

I've liked a few things I've seen from Izak Gejas in some of the Lions/Suns academy games, as a ruck/forward it would've been quite difficult for him to show what he can do in that game, don't mind him as a late draft pick or cat B rookie.
Overall to have Fletcher who has the ability to push the first round, McMillian who has come up quite quickly so will be interesting to see where he ends up and Gejas I don't think it's a bad year for our academy kids. Not sure on the rules but hopefully they can play some VFL footy for us at some stage as well.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

 

[briztoon]

Hi The Flying Belgian, do you know how many of the boys are 19 next year.

I’m curious why we’ve heard next to nothing about our 18 year olds from this season gone.

Also, do you have a son or daughter in next year’s academy?

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Hi The Flying Belgian, do you know how many of the boys are 19 next year.

I’m curious why we’ve heard next to nothing about our 18 year olds from this season gone.

Also, do you have a son or daughter in next year’s academy?

I'm only a casual observer of this age group, so I'm not really sure of birthdates. If one were so inclined they could go back and compare names from last years' Level 3 group.

Again, nothing more than guesswork, but I'd put down the lack of any buzz around that cohort to a number of factors: no national carnival, 18yos are playing largely in the QAFL thus less visible, but mostly it just doesn't seem a very strong group.

That last one is interesting. I wonder what would lead you to that conclusion.

 

[briztoon]

I'm only a casual observer of this age group, so I'm not really sure of birthdates. If one were so inclined they could go back and compare names from last years' Level 3 group.

Again, nothing more than guesswork, but I'd put down the lack of any buzz around that cohort to a number of factors: no national carnival, 18yos are playing largely in the QAFL thus less visible, but mostly it just doesn't seem a very strong group.

That last one is interesting. I wonder what would lead you to that conclusion.

Just a question, as I know a few parents here have kids playing.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Just a question, as I know a few parents here have kids playing.

I do have a family member who has been playing Colts the last few years, but isn't in the academy.

 

[Miller1971]

the fact that they have over 70 kids in the Level 3 Lions Academy sets alarm bells off.

Some of these kids have not even played senior footy in lower levels, some of them are 16 and if you include the 70 kids in the Suns academy there are at best 10 kids that would be on a draft radar out of 150 kids.

So you have to ask, why are 150 kids taken out of club football, charged $500 for the privilege to be used at training cones for 10 draftable kids?

There has to be another way to

1. Develop players
2. Raise revenue

I reckon item 2 seems to have taken over item 1 in the last 5 years.

 

[Quigley]

the fact that they have over 70 kids in the Level 3 Lions Academy sets alarm bells off.

Some of these kids have not even played senior footy in lower levels, some of them are 16 and if you include the 70 kids in the Suns academy there are at best 10 kids that would be on a draft radar out of 150 kids.

So you have to ask, why are 150 kids taken out of club football, charged $500 for the privilege to be used at training cones for 10 draftable kids?

There has to be another way to

1. Develop players
2. Raise revenue

I reckon item 2 seems to have taken over item 1 in the last 5 years.

I am sure there are other ways to develop players but maybe not and the difference between Qld clubs is likely to be significant. They are casting the net widely because of the lack of elite pathways in the clubs and that they hope it will result in a few bolters coming through. In theory it should also result in more players who have been through the elite programs and so increase the standard of players in the Qld competitions.

As far as $500 goes that would in no way make things cost neutral for the club and the players would certainly be getting value from that. My son plays tennis and the program he is starting costs me a shiteload more than that. He is never going to be an ATP player but you pay it so they can be the best they can be and being able to access the best coaches and best programs available is well worth the expense.

I have been a critic of the Lions Academy program for a while and the lack of results it has generated. With that said they have changed things up over the last year or so and hopefully the results will follow. I have absolutely no issue with the structure provided they are providing quality (and value) in the training programs they are giving the kids.

The top of next year's class look the best in quite a few years. Hopefully they continue to develop next year.

 

[Miller1971]

The training is of a lesser standard in coaching, S&C and general footy than they would experience if they were part of any QAFL senior program and they are training with athletes who in some cases have never played before, but due to athletic attributes have been recruited into the academy. These athletes are fine to be given a chance, but if they have never played before, the more suitable thing would be for them to be in a specialised group teaching the basics, rather than doing exactly the same drills and training as kids who have been elite players since they were 13.

they collect circa $200k in fee revenue alone, but wouldn't spend anywhere near that on coaching payments - mostly volunteers with vested interests, apart from a select few very good coaches or at least committed ones.

" In theory it should also result in more players who have been through the elite programs and so increase the standard of players in the Qld competitions. "

yes, very good in theory - but in the end, most of the kids undrafted that come out of the academy have such a negative experience they give footy away, the net impact of the academy is the most talented kids are lost to the game before they are 20 in a majority of cases.

 

[dlanod]

The training is of a lesser standard in coaching, S&C and general footy than they would experience if they were part of any QAFL senior program and they are training with athletes who in some cases have never played before, but due to athletic attributes have been recruited into the academy. These athletes are fine to be given a chance, but if they have never played before, the more suitable thing would be for them to be in a specialised group teaching the basics, rather than doing exactly the same drills and training as kids who have been elite players since they were 13.

...then why do the parents sign the kids up given most of these kids come through QAFL clubs in the first place?

 

[jjami15]

It was eons ago now but back in the day I was lucky enough to participate in the Bears development squad for a pre-season. I also participated and made the Teal cup squad and moved from my junior club to a more established club in Southport. My development improved exponentially because of this but for me and it’s basically my own opinion but it was moving to such a strong club and training and playing with players who were another level above me which really helped my game.

I understand the academy is important but it’s at that grass roots level where the $$$ needs to be put in and clubs like Aspley, Maroochydore or Redland etc are looked as ‘breeding’ zones for players. The academy should be refinement and education IMO and not the sole source of creating a players advancement.

 

[briztoon]

It was eons ago now but back in the day I was lucky enough to participate in the Bears development squad for a pre-season. I also participated and made the Teal cup squad and moved from my junior club to a more established club in Southport. My development improved exponentially because of this but for me and it’s basically my own opinion but it was moving to such a strong club and training and playing with players who were another level above me which really helped my game.

I understand the academy is important but it’s at that grass roots level where the $$$ needs to be put in and clubs like Aspley, Maroochydore or Redland etc are looked as ‘breeding’ zones for players. The academy should be refinement and education IMO and not the sole source of creating a players advancement.

I guess a question that I don’t believe anybody has asked before is, what is the AFL’s requirement for the Northern academy clubs?

It’s possible the AFL’s rules force the Northern clubs to require their kids participate in a way.

In saying that, it appears that the Lions academy really rubs the Brisbane and Sunshine Coast QAFL clubs up the wrong way, while the Suns academy appears to have a better relationship with the Gold Coast QAFL clubs.

 

[KissKiss]

I caught a section on the radio the other day with someone from a coaching and child psychology background who had been working with Cricket Australia about their junior programs. Was very interesting to see the studies that were happening and trying to reach a balance between getting the highest retention (and happiness) across the board versus trying to get the elite as highly developed as possible. They were talking about having better success with the first option as it spreads the success and builds more up to challenge each other. It also avoids putting all your eggs into one basket and having them burn out or get injured and wiping out the work.

Similarly have a friend who is working on her PHD on why elite athletes drop out while working with a few Olympic teams. Its definitely a controversial subject and getting a lot of resistance from older coaches and athletes. Also very disturbing to hear how much abuse is/was widespread and has been covered up

 

[Miller1971]

...then why do the parents sign the kids up given most of these kids come through QAFL clubs in the first place?

most of them don't, or are already in the academy before getting genuine exposure to a proper QAFL senior program

They have kids in there from 12 years old (now more like 13-14) and they stay in the academy for 5+ years, lose almost complete touch with club football and just turn up for club games when academy schedule suits and certainly can't train with their club teams as often as they should.

Question remains, if you're 17 or 18 years old. You can be in the academy program with 100 other kids, some of them not even close to good enough to play Senior footy at QAFL or even Div 1 level and get coaching from a bunch of volunteer academy coaches (some only there to convince you to move to their club) and maybe one actual decent qualified, invested and paid coach (who is in charge of 500+ players across 5 age groups) or you could stay in a senior QAFL program and be in a squad of ~50, have a ratio of ~1 coach to 10 players, be coached by Adrian Fletcher, Tony Lynn, Nick Malceski, Craig O'Brien or someone of that calibre and train with players who are experienced, have mostly already been through state junior programs, some have already been on AFL lists and are genuine state league senior quality players.

I know which one would be better for a players development, and its not the academy.

It was eons ago now but back in the day I was lucky enough to participate in the Bears development squad for a pre-season. I also participated and made the Teal cup squad and moved from my junior club to a more established club in Southport. My development improved exponentially because of this but for me and it’s basically my own opinion but it was moving to such a strong club and training and playing with players who were another level above me which really helped my game.

I understand the academy is important but it’s at that grass roots level where the $$$ needs to be put in and clubs like Aspley, Maroochydore or Redland etc are looked as ‘breeding’ zones for players. The academy should be refinement and education IMO and not the sole source of creating a players advancement.

Exactly.

 

[briztoon]

The academy coping a fair pasting today in a discussion in the QAFL thread today.

QAFL 2021

Actually now it’s 612 & over 72,000 reports of adverse effects and allot don’t report the side effects. https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-21-10-2021 Can you not read?

www.bigfooty.com

I have had two of my kids involved in the academy program.

Based on my observations and experiences, my opinion is that the problem with the academy is this:
1) The issue is with the program/coaching and the overall intent of the academy, not with the so-called "blanket" approach.
2) The program simply is a glorified selection trial . . . there is no "development" whatsoever.

Participants are never given any real feedback/guidance and they are not mentored, shown vision (with specific example of what they need to do better) over the years. It is basically just another training session. In my view that is the the smoking gun which shows their intent. There is no development occurring and there is not even any real intent to develop. All the Lions want here is to have the privilege of the first look and then priority access to any talent that they do spot. So they bring kids in and they watch them. And that's it. They don't teach them a thing.

They don't make better footballers out of the kids in the program. They bring them in, identify a couple with potential (usually the ones who were bigger and therefore dominant at U12 level) then they favour these few players (who are then held up on a pedestal) through the entire program. They tend not to change their mind once they have chosen (even though these choices were often made when the kids were U12s) The rest of the players are chewed up and ultimately spat out with little to show for their time in the academy. They leave the academy not having a clue what they have done wrong or why they were considered inferior to the others. The pedestal players are (as we can see) now also being spat out . . . because they are also ultimately not good enough. They are not good enough because they also have not been developed. The coaches are good at drawing lines through a players name. It is their greatest (and only) skill.

Players do lose confidence and are being lost to footy through this process . . .no doubt.

The Lions Academy is a total failure. Its remit should be to develop as many footballers to AFL standard as possible, or failing that, to QAFL standard (so that the overall standard of football in Queensland is lifted). But it doesn't do that at all.

 

[KissKiss]

Thats really sad to read. It should be one of our biggest advantages

 

[Nunez]

The academy coping a fair pasting today in a discussion in the QAFL thread today.

QAFL 2021

Actually now it’s 612 & over 72,000 reports of adverse effects and allot don’t report the side effects. https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-21-10-2021 Can you not read?

www.bigfooty.com

So basically the Lions are putting their resources towards developing the top tier talent they're able to identify in the talent pool?

From a Lion's perspective, I completely get that. Definitely looks like the communication could be done better with the less talented kids though.

 

[briztoon]

So basically the Lions are putting their resources towards developing the top tier talent they're able to identify in the talent pool?

From a Lion's perspective, I completely get that. Definitely looks like the communication could be done better with the less talented kids though.

From my reading, and conversations else where, the only extra “resources” put towards the top tier talent, is when the top 18 year olds spend a couple of weeks with the senior squad during preseason.

Which all the AFL academy kids get, spread amongst the various Vic, SA and WA clubs.

There’s no extra resources out towards elite kids.

Did you read the page I linked to.

 

[Nunez]

From my reading, and conversations else where, the only extra “resources” put towards the top tier talent, is when the top 18 year olds spend a couple of weeks with the senior squad during preseason.

Which all the AFL academy kids get, spread amongst the various Vic, SA and WA clubs.

There’s no extra resources out towards elite kids.

Did you read the page I linked to.

I read the post you quoted.

 

[briztoon]

I read the post you quoted.

Interesting that was your observation from that one post, when that wasn’t even mentioned.

 

[Nunez]

Interesting that was your observation from that one post, when that wasn’t even mentioned.

it was implied. The guy is clearly jaded and while the academy is nowhere near perfect, the club has addressed issues to improve it in the last year and don't anticipate that will stop. Players have come through the academy and I know some players who have come through and have had a lot of positive things to say about it - both AFL listed and not. It has a long way to go, but a complete failure it is not.

 

[briztoon]

it was implied. The guy is clearly jaded and while the academy is nowhere near perfect, the club has addressed issues to improve it in the last year and don't anticipate that will stop. Players have come through the academy and I know some players who have come through and have had a lot of positive things to say about it - both AFL listed and not. It has a long way to go, but a complete failure it is not.

Ok

 

[jjami15]

NeverEddie’s post I believe highlights what we think and have already heard in part before. I understand the tiered approach in relation to players but surely they would be aware of kids developing at different rates. One could say that there are more Qlders being drafted but not to the extent and certainly not the elite talent that the academy should producing.

 

[Nunez]

Ok

Lol sorry mate, I wish I was an expert on all things footy like you.

 

[briztoon]

Lol sorry mate, I wish I was an expert on all things footy like you.

Not the response I expected.

I don’t have your contacts to the academy, so can’t comment on what you posted.

I don’t necessarily agree with you, so wasn’t giving your post a like, but wanted to give you a response, that I had read your and was bowing out of the conversation.