Multiplat AFL Evolution 2

[BigAntStudios]

Whenever I've heard them talk on vids or whatever, they just don't seem like footy people. They seem like devs who have just been given a sport game to make. Perhaps they do and I'm reading it wrong, or maybe the devs who don't speak publicly do, but then you look at the games themselves and there doesn't seem to be a lot of passion or vision for what they want to achieve coming through. And I think making a satisfying AFL game would be very difficult if you don't have at least some key people who know the sport and have some idea of how they want it to materialise in video game form.

Not talking about this AFL game or any developer specifically - but it's a little worse than that in practice - the crossover of Artists and Coders that like sport is a really, really small niche, so it becomes not about having passion or vision, it's about stopping it from becoming a job they'd rather not do, a real chore. I'm sure if I took some guys here to the NRL they'd find it a chore to watch and hate it, I can tell you the opposite is also true, NRL fans in general don't like AFL. Simply put, if you're not into it, you're not into it, and it fast becomes a job with a deadline and you're not going to be going that extra mile or looking for the intricacies of it, you're just going to want it off your plate - you want to move on to make that thing you came into the industry for, the dream of working on a Naughty Dog, Rockstar, etc. title, not some sport you don't care about.

 

[Topkent]

Not talking about this AFL game or any developer specifically - but it's a little worse than that in practice - the crossover of Artists and Coders that like sport is a really, really small niche, so it becomes not about having passion or vision, it's about stopping it from becoming a job they'd rather not do, a real chore. I'm sure if I took some guys here to the NRL they'd find it a chore to watch and hate it, I can tell you the opposite is also true, NRL fans in general don't like AFL. Simply put, if you're not into it, you're not into it, and it fast becomes a job with a deadline and you're not going to be going that extra mile or looking for the intricacies of it, you're just going to want it off your plate - you want to move on to make that thing you came into the industry for, the dream of working on a Naughty Dog, Rockstar, etc. title, not some sport you don't care about.

This might already happen but would it be possible for you and WW to contract in coders just for the sports games or would they need an intimate knowledge of your companies inner workings?

 

[BigAntStudios]

This might already happen but would it be possible for you and WW to contract in coders just for the sports games or would they need an intimate knowledge of your companies inner workings?

In general it takes quite a while for external people to get up to speed with your systems, etc. and games take us 18-24 months for sequels, 30 months for a first title, that's probably too long to contract someone in for. For us specifically, we have a policy at BA that we don't use contractors as we like everyone to have the security of being a full time employee.

 

[Topkent]

In general it takes quite a while for external people to get up to speed with your systems, etc. and games take us 18-24 months for sequels, 30 months for a first title, that's probably too long to contract someone in for. For us specifically, we have a policy at BA that we don't use contractors as we like everyone to have the security of being a full time employee.

I know I gave you a hard time earlier for shitkicking the WW product but legitimate props for being accessible to the punter. Another company could really take some notes on it.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Ross aside from extra development costs, is there a cost to putting out a patch?

 

[dwwaino]

Whenever I've heard them talk on vids or whatever, they just don't seem like footy people. They seem like devs who have just been given a sport game to make. Perhaps they do and I'm reading it wrong, or maybe the devs who don't speak publicly do, but then you look at the games themselves and there doesn't seem to be a lot of passion or vision for what they want to achieve coming through. And I think making a satisfying AFL game would be very difficult if you don't have at least some key people who know the sport and have some idea of how they want it to materialise in video game form.

This happens to more than just sports games in my limited experience. A couple years ago I joined a game jam with an international crew of 3 others - a full time artist/modeller, a Unity guru who had worked in a studio before and who sort of doubled as the project lead, and two of us splitting the coding and general design. It was meant to be a true old school RPG inspired by stuff like Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale but with a simplified D&D rule set to work in real time. We had a game design document and sketches done any everything. Cracks appeared after about 3 months before falling apart when it turned out two of the guys didn't really have that much experience with RPGs, they thought stuff like Assassins Creed was an RPG. So that was half a team without a proper understanding of the project.

 

[BlackMamba]

Not talking about this AFL game or any developer specifically - but it's a little worse than that in practice - the crossover of Artists and Coders that like sport is a really, really small niche, so it becomes not about having passion or vision, it's about stopping it from becoming a job they'd rather not do, a real chore. I'm sure if I took some guys here to the NRL they'd find it a chore to watch and hate it, I can tell you the opposite is also true, NRL fans in general don't like AFL. Simply put, if you're not into it, you're not into it, and it fast becomes a job with a deadline and you're not going to be going that extra mile or looking for the intricacies of it, you're just going to want it off your plate - you want to move on to make that thing you came into the industry for, the dream of working on a Naughty Dog, Rockstar, etc. title, not some sport you don't care about.

I was lucky when I worked in the games industry.... worked mainly on a cricket game (which I loved).
While there were still issues with it.... I was an a$$hole to our team because I was picking on things that only cricket fans would care about... to ensure it was as real as possible. (real life simulation scores, correctly laid out statistics and graphs.... even 'what happens if the ball hits the rope on the full'..... which hardly ever happened, but if it did, I wanted it to be right!).

Always wanted to work on an AFL game, but never did.

 

[SugarShane]

I was lucky when I worked in the games industry.... worked mainly on a cricket game (which I loved).
While there were still issues with it.... I was an a$$hole to our team because I was picking on things that only cricket fans would care about... to ensure it was as real as possible. (real life simulation scores, correctly laid out statistics and graphs.... even 'what happens if the ball hits the rope on the full'..... which hardly ever happened, but if it did, I wanted it to be right!).

Always wanted to work on an AFL game, but never did.

What cricket game did you work on (if you don't mind me asking)?

 

[BigAntStudios]

Ross aside from extra development costs, is there a cost to putting out a patch?

A few years ago patches were paid for, Sony was charging us 10,000 Euro (I think), now there is no charge.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

A few years ago patches were paid for, Sony was charging us 10,000 Euro (I think), now there is no charge.

Interesting. You patch heavily which is great so I can’t see why a dev wouldn’t want to patch, unless a studio boss doesn’t want his devs to think they can go half arsed and patch stuff later

 

[BlackMamba]

What cricket game did you work on (if you don't mind me asking)?

Ashes Cricket 2009...back when I was a junior dev.

A QA guy and an animator are still close friends of mine. We always discussed 'what we would do' if we were to design an AFL game.
We still play AFL Evo 2 online together and discuss bits and pieces that we'd add/change/remove.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Ashes Cricket 2009...back when I was a junior dev.

A QA guy and an animator are still close friends of mine. We always discussed 'what we would do' if we were to design an AFL game.
We still play AFL Evo 2 online together and discuss bits and pieces that we'd add/change/remove.

I had that one! It was great! First cricket game I owned since Shane Warne Cricket on ye olde PSone

 

[footyfan1978]

I was lucky when I worked in the games industry.... worked mainly on a cricket game (which I loved).
While there were still issues with it.... I was an a$$hole to our team because I was picking on things that only cricket fans would care about... to ensure it was as real as possible. (real life simulation scores, correctly laid out statistics and graphs.... even 'what happens if the ball hits the rope on the full'..... which hardly ever happened, but if it did, I wanted it to be right!).

Always wanted to work on an AFL game, but never did.

Pity. It is eye for such details is what these Aussie sports games need in these developments.

 

[SugarShane]

Ashes Cricket 2009...back when I was a junior dev.

A QA guy and an animator are still close friends of mine. We always discussed 'what we would do' if we were to design an AFL game.
We still play AFL Evo 2 online together and discuss bits and pieces that we'd add/change/remove.

Nice. I really liked those games, they don't get enough love. I platinumed both Ashes 2009 and International Cricket 2010.

 

[HBK619]

Not talking about this AFL game or any developer specifically - but it's a little worse than that in practice - the crossover of Artists and Coders that like sport is a really, really small niche, so it becomes not about having passion or vision, it's about stopping it from becoming a job they'd rather not do, a real chore. I'm sure if I took some guys here to the NRL they'd find it a chore to watch and hate it, I can tell you the opposite is also true, NRL fans in general don't like AFL. Simply put, if you're not into it, you're not into it, and it fast becomes a job with a deadline and you're not going to be going that extra mile or looking for the intricacies of it, you're just going to want it off your plate - you want to move on to make that thing you came into the industry for, the dream of working on a Naughty Dog, Rockstar, etc. title, not some sport you don't care about.

To piggy back off this a bit. It's really the most important that from the top down you can have people that are interested in it.

The nuanced knowledge of aspects and being able to translate that to a coder, artist, animator is where it becomes so important.

You might be trying to explain what a yorker is in cricket and if you just say "so yeah I bowled a yorker and it pitched short, what's that about?" you're going to get a blank stare. If you can explain exactly what a yorker is and what the pitching is and even what "short" is that's where you can get the details maximised in your games. Not only that but it can help the sport illiterate to understand and get into the knowledge of the sport. Often times they can look at you and go "the code/logic is perfect" but then you can go "yeah, but it's not sport!" and explain exactly why and they can adjust to get it to what you wanted.

I think Ross already mentioned it, but one area where this showed up was Lacrosse. None of us in the office really knew what Lacrosse was about. That can be really hard to figure out an entire sport that you've never seen before and now have to make a game out of. Thankfully, for those in the office that knew "sports" at a general level, it was easy to pick up on various aspects (it's like a mix between AFL, Hockey, Soccer and Basketball). You could start to pick things a part a bit. Then it helped that we had a super mad Lacrosse voice in the US to work with too. I think you can see a big jump in the "Lacrosse" feel from 16-18 mainly due to this as well. CPL16 for mine is a super fun sports game (personally I rate it as the "most fun" - not necessarily best - game we've made since I've been at Big Ant) but probably missing elements of the nuance, where CPL18 is far more "Lacrosse" in it's execution as it was a hell of a lot more hands on design from Carlo (the US Lacrosse guy).

One good example I can use of having an AFL knowledge from a programmer. In CPL16 and 18 our trading/drafting system was based off the AFL's draft "points system". Where each player is assigned a points value, to help keep a balance for trading and drafting, so you don't see ludicrous results like a 99 rated player being traded for a 4th round draft pick. This can then obviously be brought across various different titles and manipulated as well to fit the system and sport you're catering for. I challenge anyone to poke holes in that system in CPL16 and 18 (I don't think I've ever heard a complaint about it).

We have some AFL, NRL, Cricket, Tennis and just general sports nuffs in our office and they cross all paths of our departments (production, programming, art, animation, QA and design) which definitely helps. But if you have a few strong heads here and there that can point out the missed nuances then you definitely don't need an entire staff of only sports mad people.

There's a hell of a lot more I could write on this but don't want to hijack things too much, but it's basically one of those things that the more knowledge the better, the stronger the knowledge and being able to impart that is the most important (ie breaking down something to it's simplest terms, then bringing in further complexity as you build those simple elements in).

 

[Sixpence]

I know I gave you a hard time earlier for shitkicking the WW product but legitimate props for being accessible to the punter. Another company could really take some notes on it.

BigAntStudios I, too, had a go at you for your WW digs but all your behind the scenes posts since then have been quite interesting and appreciated.

Really don't understand Sebastian's dislike of patches. Perhaps if it required downtime of a live server, you'd want to limit patches, but when it's client download? And if you patch and improve a game you're more likely to sell more of the next iteration. Strange stance.

 

[Quivorir]

Really don't understand Sebastian's dislike of patches.

$$$$


Right Sebastian Giompaolo ?

 

[Dez!]

He's been tagged about 500 times, take a hint fellas he's not coming back.

 

[mike123]

He's been tagged about 500 times, take a hint fellas he's not coming back.

Tagging Sebastian Giompaolo is the new posting shipping updates

 

[Biggy_Boy]

And if you patch and improve a game you're more likely to sell more of the next iteration. Strange stance.

Perhaps the belief is that you're not with something like AFL though. AFL fans will just buy it regardless of track record or quality, so why bother with the effort? It's the brand that sells, not the quality of the game.

 

[BigAntStudios]

BigAntStudios I, too, had a go at you for your WW digs but all your behind the since posts since then have been quite interesting and appreciated.

Really don't understand Sebastian's dislike of patches. Perhaps if it required downtime of a live server, you'd want to limit patches, but when it's client download? And if you patch and improve a game you're more likely to sell more of the next iteration. Strange stance.

Thanks, you never know whether people are interested or you're living in your own bubble. HBK619 above makes some good points. He started in QA at BA, and has certainly been on the receiving end of my and players expectations for patches

If you release fewer, but bigger, patches then you save money by not having to have as much QA involved in the process, IMO though, you lose people, if you don't patch for ages, people just move on.... does that matter? Maybe not, in the short term you've got their $, but in the long term you get a reputation of not supporting your stuff, and that will eventually hurt (IMO).

 

[BigAntStudios]

Ashes Cricket 2009...back when I was a junior dev.

A QA guy and an animator are still close friends of mine. We always discussed 'what we would do' if we were to design an AFL game.
We still play AFL Evo 2 online together and discuss bits and pieces that we'd add/change/remove.

You'd have definitely worked with some of the guys here at BA, we had quite a few join us from IR Gurus/Transmission over the years.

 

[BlackMamba]

You'd have definitely worked with some of the guys here at BA, we had quite a few join us from IR Gurus/Transmission over the years.

Yeah I knew a few that moved over.
Even applied at BA myself when Transmission went under.... but because I was only a junior dev when that happened, the market was flooded with more senior game devs… so I couldn't get past the first round of interviews.

All good. Landed on my feet in the website dev industry instead.

 

[dwwaino]

Is QA still the human punching bag it used to be? When I lived in Brisbane before moving back south I had a couple of weekend drinking buddies that worked at Krome (Ty the Tiger was one of theirs). One was the lead level designer and the other was a QA. One loved his job and it has allowed him to take exciting jobs all over the world. The other absolutely detested it and eventually opted for unemployment instead. No second guess for which one was which.

Every now and then I see local QA jobs, from start ups to small studios, come up I admit it looks like a tempting way to get a foot in the door. Have to admit that when I saw one earlier this year I did sit down with the wife to calculate savings, my 12 years of long service owing and stuff to see if a massive pay cut from putting down the tools to an entry level or junior job (even a junior web career has been on the table) would be feasible haha. Then the 'rona hit to snuff that out. Might look at it again next year.

 

[Quivorir]

Well there appears to be plenty of QA positions available at WW.