List Mgmt. Aisho Going Elsewhere

[Boris the Contradiction]

I've decided that the Bears forum is officially the most precious, egotistical Morons on BF. Any objections? I got a warning and the mods muppet said that why do you need to be negative ( word to that affect ) when 98% are being civil & respectable to each other? Seriously what a KJ.


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Nope. It's Adelaide and Geelong by the Flemington proverb.

Go and check out the Dangerfield thread on the draft board. Utter chaos.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

I reckon leigh would be his own I reckon the list managers would want something for him

This. I bet the club is furious with him.

 

[Somebody]

I always rest a little easier when Scout says something. He was right with Treoloar and further back with Clinton Young. Walsh said we are done with trading 1 day before free agency finishes, the media report we're outs of the race for Young that night. That same night Scout says we are still right in it. Next day he's signed.


He will but it's just a matter of offering up something decent. Perhaps Matthews thinks we'll offer up a crap deal like pick 26 for a former pick 7. Docherty was a pick 12 and went 2/3 years later for pick 33. Now that is a reeming.

At a guess, I bet we'll offer 2 x 2nd rounders plus Oxley. 2 x 2nd rounders is fair and in all likelihood, I bet they'd get Oxley in the PSD for nothing anyway. Gut feel is a deal is done there between Brisbane and Oxley.

Not looking forward to losing Oxley, I think he is going to be a very valuable player.

 

[regpies]

Not sure why Aisho is rated so high - has he really shown more than Oxley. Ox is good on the intercept mark and can kick a ball. Surely Aish is pumped up on the back of being an early draft pick.

Lions player development is awful, that's why young players want to leave. Aish at any other club will be a better player, even Carlton.

I want to keep Oxley as a depth player in case Langdon or Shaz get injured.

Oxley is still a way off being a good player, poor fitness and needs to harden up, he's certainly no De Goey when it comes to attack on the ball and tackling.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I dont mind the Lions playing hardball and making a stand...they shouldve done it years ago with guys like polec and yeo who they just let walk easily.

The short term focus for Brisbane needs to be repairing their culture and creating an environment players want to stay.

We are having similar issues in many ways with so many players walking in recent years, amd freeman again this year. But you just have to cut your losses and maximise trade value. Even hawthorn will likely lose suckling and anderson this year...it is an issue competition wide.

I think the Lions should focus on players who want to play for them. Yes theyve lost players, but they also got beams, christensen and robinson want to come to them.

This year bell has nominated the lions, and they have 2 great academy kids they need points for.

If they create a team full of guys who want to be there, then it will improve morale. Go home factor is an issue for all clubs now and is something everyone is considering at the draft table.

I just can't help but feel the Brisbane decision is largely based on spite. Everyone has known all year Aish wanted out...and Lions dropped him many time throughout the year.

It seems they only took umbrage on it once it became clear he was coming to collingwood. I dont remember this stance when he was meeting with carlton. In fact, the dialogue was "we concede we are going to lose him". I think swann said something along those lines.

Up until last year we had a pretty good history of trading with Brisbane IIRC? Buckley, Starcevich, Wood, Corrie, Karnezis, Paine ...

I'm wondering if there is bad blood over the Beams' deal?

Matthews' public ultimatums aren't too dissimilar to our behavior last year.

Anyway, i think the deal will get done...but we are going to have to be creative or offer slightly overs. We cant go criticising brisbane if our offer is not fair to them. They need to show they wont be pushovers.

Hopefully it is just like last year. A bit of huffing and puffing along the way, but sanity prevails in the end.

 

[ClaytonM]

Oxley is expendable. Good depth and possible best 20-25 but unlikely to go higher. He may be interested in a move home and also better opportunities. Likely to fall behind Shaz, Marsh and Rhino.

 

[ThePhantom777]

F#ck Lions. Banned me for writing Go Pies on their trade thread when Aish nominated us,plenty of them doing that crap on ours. Hope we get Aish for free.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I think if a trade gets done it will only be after involvement of the AFL following mediation. It's the only way the Lions can save face because I 100% believe that Matthews means what he says.

A great way to generate publicity around your club ...

... Pick on Collingwood.

You don't reckon Matthews is just playing the game?

 

[Visions]

Why would he do into the preseason draft? Why not the national draft like luke ball and try to get to a decent club (eg not carlton)

This. I don't know why everyone is saying he will go to Carlton in the PSD. Why wouldn't he choose the National draft like Ball did and try his luck there?

I doubt it would get that far anyhow. Reason being that if the Lions don't bother dealing and cut Aish loose, they will lose any chance of gaining a priority pick in the near future while they keep on finishing at the bottom end of the ladder. It might not happen anyhow but going down this road would guarantee they wont receive it. No way would the AFL grant them. The lions would realise this and that carrot will entice them to play ball.

Plus, if they receive two picks from us, odds are decent one of those drafted will actually want to stay at the Lions for more than a few years. Win for them

 

[Visions]

I think if a trade gets done it will only be after involvement of the AFL following mediation. It's the only way the Lions can save face because I 100% believe that Matthews means what he says.

Remember last year Kirby? First Friday of trade week, Collingwood took the tough stance and sent out a statement they had ceased negotiations with Brisbane and wouldn't go further with them, come Monday minds had been changed, went back on their word and deal done.

Offer them something worthwhile here and minds will be changed too.

 

[Scodog10]

A great way to generate publicity around your club ...

... Pick on Collingwood.

You don't reckon Matthews is just playing the game?

He 100% isn't.

Their football department legitimately believe that the ultimatum they've set is in the best interests of their club.

 

[Nicco_jj]

He 100% isn't.

Their football department legitimately believe that the ultimatum they've set is in the best interests of their club.

I believe you're right

 

[ClaytonM]

He 100% isn't.

Their football department legitimately believe that the ultimatum they've set is in the best interests of their club.

I agree. The only way I see them changing their minds is if they start getting serious negative feedback from their playing group, unlikely cause they are all currently in Bali, or from potential draftees, most who are probably too shit scared at that age to say anything.

My bet is he is headed for the draft. Only a OMFG offer will prevent it and it will not come from us.

 

[SgtFloydPepper]

Happy to respond to this bc I think in many ways you are putting forward some valid points.

The issue though where it falls over (at least in my mind) is that despite Dayne having a sick father he was adamant he wanted to go to Brisbane and nowhere else. I suspect you know Dayne family actually from the Coast so if the guy was trying to do the right thing by the club would or could have said, "hey I want to go back to QLD for family reasons but I am open to both and happy for you guys to try and strike a deal with either on the basis I can also get decent terms". He didn't say anything like that…….in fact he spoke with Brisbane exclusively through the year, accepted a massive offer and then told a club who had invested heavily in him (on and off the field…most notably 2010) that they had one choice but to deal. I think you can acknowledge Collingwoods investment in Dayne was much more significant than your in James.

Don't get me wrong I have empathy for your club with Aish just as I do with our and Freeman. But to my mind if a kid doesn't want to be there let them go and facilitate something back that helps. With respect your club needs that help. It is incredible to me that having asked the Commission for a Priority pick you would let a kid walk who may get you something v decent and fair back to just walk. I suspect you have done your dash with the Commission for a long time off the back of that and would be sure that point is being made to them.

At the end of the day a club has to create a culture and environment as does any work place to encourage their talent to stay. Lions were incredibly good at this but in the last 3-4 years have not done it well and they need to look inwardly. I know Craig and Mel and they will create that environment but the way your coach behaves has to be a part of the solution. Lions know that and thats why they got Craig and Mel up there.

As for Redden, I was more upset about losing Dayne than Freeman so am surprised you are the other way but I can understand that.

IF Aish doesn't come to Pies so be it. In many way be happier them chasing Jed Anderson who am a massive fan of. Carlton will gladly take him for nothing and you guys will come up short. It won't send any other message than 'gee when I get interviewed by the Lions for drafting I think I might just be careful about seeming to keen to go if I think I might want to come back at some stage'.

Just to be clear though, it is in everyones interest that the Pies pay something that is reasonable.

With Dayne nominating us and only us, it actually gave you an insight into what we as a club have been through multiple times (more prevalently in recent years).....particularly with 1st round draft picks. You're reasoning as to what Dayne should have done, further emphasises the point I was making about Aish. You at least had the benefit of Dayne being contracted, having played an integral role in a premiership, winning a best and fairest, 6 seasons of service etc. A general contribution to your club. Realistically, has Aish done any of that (albeit I didn't expect us to win the league over the past 2 seasons mind).

I don't disagree with your sentiment, if the kid doesn't want to be there - that's fine, but at least do the right thing by the club, give them as many options as they can to get you to your city of choice. Realistically, if as reported, James wants to make a name for himself outside of Adelaide, again that's fair enough. By nominating Collingwood, he severely hamstrung the club in it's bargaining power. You could say the club learnt from the harsh lessons of the 'go home 5' and how they went about things. It seems to us (lions fans) that he seemed to think that using the blueprint that they did would get him his desired result. As a club, we've seen it as an opportunity to draw a line in the sand, and stop the thoughts the these first round players can get exactly what they want without looking after a club that has made a big investment in them.

However, I do think that it is a fair bit of posturing on the behalf of the Lions (this includes asking for the PP), not only to highlight the issues we have with retaining our talent, but some of the other issues within the club (training facilities etc). Lethal's position as well (to me at least), is posturing in order to get better compensation (particularly if as we all seemingly expect) it goes to mediation with the AFL. In our mind, Aish hasn't really regressed (i.e. he more than justified his pick 7 in season one, had a second season whereby he started poorly, injuries and you could argue desire affected the latter half of his season).

With Redden, he's been particularly up front with the club. He's given great service during his time at the club, but seems to think that the grass is greener, and needs a change. He didn't attend the B&F (and given how that seems to be a pre-cursor to these sorts of things these days) so we just have to assume he's gone now, although things have been fairly quiet on that front since his announcement, for all we know Craig and Mel have worked some magic already.

Hands off Anderson.....he isn't the worst replacement we could get for Aish.......

 

[THATSGOLD]

Next year we go after Jaeger. GC is not doing too well either with player retention. They might pull the same stunt.
Now , how would you like this trade for Aish to go?

We won't have cap space for him by then or bargaining power due to lack of draft picks.

 

[ClaytonM]

With Dayne nominating us and only us, it actually gave you an insight into what we as a club have been through multiple times (more prevalently in recent years).....particularly with 1st round draft picks. You're reasoning as to what Dayne should have done, further emphasises the point I was making about Aish. You at least had the benefit of Dayne being contracted, having played an integral role in a premiership, winning a best and fairest, 6 seasons of service etc. A general contribution to your club. Realistically, has Aish done any of that (albeit I didn't expect us to win the league over the past 2 seasons mind).

I don't disagree with your sentiment, if the kid doesn't want to be there - that's fine, but at least do the right thing by the club, give them as many options as they can to get you to your city of choice. Realistically, if as reported, James wants to make a name for himself outside of Adelaide, again that's fair enough. By nominating Collingwood, he severely hamstrung the club in it's bargaining power. You could say the club learnt from the harsh lessons of the 'go home 5' and how they went about things. It seems to us (lions fans) that he seemed to think that using the blueprint that they did would get him his desired result. As a club, we've seen it as an opportunity to draw a line in the sand, and stop the thoughts the these first round players can get exactly what they want without looking after a club that has made a big investment in them.

However, I do think that it is a fair bit of posturing on the behalf of the Lions (this includes asking for the PP), not only to highlight the issues we have with retaining our talent, but some of the other issues within the club (training facilities etc). Lethal's position as well (to me at least), is posturing in order to get better compensation (particularly if as we all seemingly expect) it goes to mediation with the AFL. In our mind, Aish hasn't really regressed (i.e. he more than justified his pick 7 in season one, had a second season whereby he started poorly, injuries and you could argue desire affected the latter half of his season).

With Redden, he's been particularly up front with the club. He's given great service during his time at the club, but seems to think that the grass is greener, and needs a change. He didn't attend the B&F (and given how that seems to be a pre-cursor to these sorts of things these days) so we just have to assume he's gone now, although things have been fairly quiet on that front since his announcement, for all we know Craig and Mel have worked some magic already.

Hands off Anderson.....he isn't the worst replacement we could get for Aish.......

I acknowledge your serious problem but not sure I can respect your club's approach. I have expressed similar concerns in the past on here when people expected Scharenberg was going home.

These kids are not slaves. They should not be bought and sold like commodities. Aish appears to be being punished for the sins of others. It is an unacceptable way for the AFL to treat its employees.

Aish, Freeman and all footballers should be able to nominate where they would like to go when out of contract. It should be up to the AFL to make it fair.

It reeks of employees suffering due to the incompetence of AFL management.

 

[Bard]

With Dayne nominating us and only us, it actually gave you an insight into what we as a club have been through multiple times (more prevalently in recent years).....particularly with 1st round draft picks. You're reasoning as to what Dayne should have done, further emphasises the point I was making about Aish. You at least had the benefit of Dayne being contracted, having played an integral role in a premiership, winning a best and fairest, 6 seasons of service etc. A general contribution to your club. Realistically, has Aish done any of that (albeit I didn't expect us to win the league over the past 2 seasons mind).

I don't disagree with your sentiment, if the kid doesn't want to be there - that's fine, but at least do the right thing by the club, give them as many options as they can to get you to your city of choice. Realistically, if as reported, James wants to make a name for himself outside of Adelaide, again that's fair enough. By nominating Collingwood, he severely hamstrung the club in it's bargaining power. You could say the club learnt from the harsh lessons of the 'go home 5' and how they went about things. It seems to us (lions fans) that he seemed to think that using the blueprint that they did would get him his desired result. As a club, we've seen it as an opportunity to draw a line in the sand, and stop the thoughts the these first round players can get exactly what they want without looking after a club that has made a big investment in them.

However, I do think that it is a fair bit of posturing on the behalf of the Lions (this includes asking for the PP), not only to highlight the issues we have with retaining our talent, but some of the other issues within the club (training facilities etc). Lethal's position as well (to me at least), is posturing in order to get better compensation (particularly if as we all seemingly expect) it goes to mediation with the AFL. In our mind, Aish hasn't really regressed (i.e. he more than justified his pick 7 in season one, had a second season whereby he started poorly, injuries and you could argue desire affected the latter half of his season).

With Redden, he's been particularly up front with the club. He's given great service during his time at the club, but seems to think that the grass is greener, and needs a change. He didn't attend the B&F (and given how that seems to be a pre-cursor to these sorts of things these days) so we just have to assume he's gone now, although things have been fairly quiet on that front since his announcement, for all we know Craig and Mel have worked some magic already.

Hands off Anderson.....he isn't the worst replacement we could get for Aish.......

I somewhat feel sorry for you guys (there are a lot of bad feelings to get over first ) and I certainly don't respect the way in which Aish has gone about leaving your club and if I were to look at it from an unbiased standpoint of course it would be fairer to you guys if he didn't nominate a specific club. At the same time that doesn't mean that refusing to trade him is a) fair to Aish, and b) actually good for the club. No one from Brisbane has come out to highlight how it'll fix any of your problems and I think I and many others are awaiting that explanation. Perhaps as you say it's an attempt to force the AFL's hand to give Brisbane better help, but I'm not sure that aggressively going after that help (because it /will/ anger the AFL) is the best way to go about it :S

 

[Schraderbrau]

Up until last year we had a pretty good history of trading with Brisbane IIRC? Buckley, Starcevich, Wood, Corrie, Karnezis, Paine ...

I'm wondering if there is bad blood over the Beams' deal?

Matthews' public ultimatums aren't too dissimilar to our behavior last year.



Hopefully it is just like last year. A bit of huffing and puffing along the way, but sanity prevails in the end.

Wouldn't surprise me. Everything that is wrong with that club (which is practically everything) is somehow Collingwood's or more specifically Eddie McGuire's fault.

 

[Schraderbrau]

He 100% isn't.

Their football department legitimately believe that the ultimatum they've set is in the best interests of their club.

They've run out of ideas, this is the board's last act of desperation. Somebody needs to tell them that they don't need a priority draft pick, they need a priority coach, list manager and CEO.

The Mathews logic adds up to something like this "we always lose when a young player elects to leave our club, therefore we will let them leave for nothing and lose 3 times faster".

 

[SgtFloydPepper]

I acknowledge your serious problem but not sure I can respect your club's approach. I have expressed similar concerns in the past on here when people expected Scharenberg was going home.

These kids are not slaves. They should not be bought and sold like commodities. Aish appears to be being punished for the sins of others. It is an unacceptable way for the AFL to treat its employees.

Aish, Freeman and all footballers should be able to nominate where they would like to go when out of contract. It should be up to the AFL to make it fair.

It reeks of employees suffering due to the incompetence of AFL management.

Aish is being somewhat punished for seemingly following a template that was previously used. I stated earlier in this thread, had Aish been far more forthcoming rather than springing this on us just prior to trade week, I think you'd see a far more inclined club to help him out. Bear in mind our seasons been over for ~ 5 weeks now, he also hasn't played since round 17 - plenty of time for some introspection and to make a decision about his future.

These guys (aish, freeman et al) should be given a choice of city, surely that's enough. If any team wants them hard enough, they will go the extra mile to get them.

I somewhat feel sorry for you guys (there are a lot of bad feelings to get over first ) and I certainly don't respect the way in which Aish has gone about leaving your club and if I were to look at it from an unbiased standpoint of course it would be fairer to you guys if he didn't nominate a specific club. At the same time that doesn't mean that refusing to trade him is a) fair to Aish, and b) actually good for the club. No one from Brisbane has come out to highlight how it'll fix any of your problems and I think I and many others are awaiting that explanation. Perhaps as you say it's an attempt to force the AFL's hand to give Brisbane better help, but I'm not sure that aggressively going after that help (because it /will/ anger the AFL) is the best way to go about it :S

I suspect Lethals approach is all posturing (similar to a certain deadline last trade period ). I highly doubt, if we're given a good enough deal from your lot, that after going through some AFL mediation (we've got to have some theatrics about it), that inevitably Aish will get to the Pies. We'll make him sweat, think that everything is off, send him off for talks with Carlton (just for shits and giggles) during the process but he'll get what he wants.

However, at the same time, it will just further emphasize to AFL house that for a competitive Brisbane Lions team, we can't continually, keep developing top line talent for Victoria teams only for them to leave after 2 seasons. As a club that just isn't feasible. In all honesty, we've been the elephant in the room for some time, now that we're kicking up so much fuss about a player on the back of an awful season, things in the Vic media are just being noticed. I think its come time for us to be somewhat aggressive in getting what we want, its 12 years since that lovely day in 2003 , we've been pretty god-damned awful for near on 10 years now - something needs to change in regards to us and our relationship with AFL house

 

[Jasper84]

Aish is being somewhat punished for seemingly following a template that was previously used. I stated earlier in this thread, had Aish been far more forthcoming rather than springing this on us just prior to trade week, I think you'd see a far more inclined club to help him out. Bear in mind our seasons been over for ~ 5 weeks now, he also hasn't played since round 17 - plenty of time for some introspection and to make a decision about his future.

These guys (aish, freeman et al) should be given a choice of city, surely that's enough. If any team wants them hard enough, they will go the extra mile to get them.



I suspect Lethals approach is all posturing (similar to a certain deadline last trade period ). I highly doubt, if we're given a good enough deal from your lot, that after going through some AFL mediation (we've got to have some theatrics about it), that inevitably Aish will get to the Pies. We'll make him sweat, think that everything is off, send him off for talks with Carlton (just for shits and giggles) during the process but he'll get what he wants.

However, at the same time, it will just further emphasize to AFL house that for a competitive Brisbane Lions team, we can't continually, keep developing top line talent for Victoria teams only for them to leave after 2 seasons. As a club that just isn't feasible. In all honesty, we've been the elephant in the room for some time, now that we're kicking up so much fuss about a player on the back of an awful season, things in the Vic media are just being noticed. I think its come time for us to be somewhat aggressive in getting what we want, its 12 years since that lovely day in 2003 , we've been pretty god-damned awful for near on 10 years now - something needs to change in regards to us and our relationship with AFL house

I think your club as a whole needs to take more consideration into why young players don't want to stay instead of emphasizing points to the afl and drawing lines in the sand.

I have already mentioned earlier my thoughts on your captain, but it's also the players you bring in. Last year for example, you needed to offer overs to a 20-23 year old talent with leadership aspirations and good character. Caĺlan Ward to GWS is the perfect example and Treloar is on similar lines. Instead you got Beams, Christensen and Robinson who may be talented, but all have serious character flaws. They might improve your team on field but are they the kind of people young players should be getting around? Between them, your coach and captain's unprofessional antics and this line in the sand stuff, surely a kid and his manager would be questioning why they should stay.

If you get the right people in the first place and you still can't retain players, then going to the afl with cap in hand would be justified.

 

[PieNSauce]

However, at the same time, it will just further emphasize to AFL house that for a competitive Brisbane Lions team, we can't continually, keep developing top line talent for Victoria teams only for them to leave after 2 seasons. As a club that just isn't feasible. In all honesty, we've been the elephant in the room for some time, now that we're kicking up so much fuss about a player on the back of an awful season, things in the Vic media are just being noticed. I think its come time for us to be somewhat aggressive in getting what we want, its 12 years since that lovely day in 2003 , we've been pretty god-damned awful for near on 10 years now - something needs to change in regards to us and our relationship with AFL house

Yep. Looks a lot to me like it's time the AFL stepped in, dismissed all of your management and did what they have consistently failed to do in making your club one where players want to stay. It's clear that Lethal's stance is little more than posturing but it's bizarre that he is happy to do it at the expense of further eroding any likelihood that players want to go there let alone stay. It looks like "we're a basket case, how can we make it worse?"

 

[Schraderbrau]

Yep. Looks a lot to me like it's time the AFL stepped in, dismissed all of your management and did what they have consistently failed to do in making your club one where players want to stay. It's clear that Lethal's stance is little more than posturing but it's bizarre that he is happy to do it at the expense of further eroding any likelihood that players want to go there let alone stay. It looks like "we're a basket case, how can we make it worse?"

They've taken such a hardline stance that any trade other than a top 5 pick will make them look like fools. Ironically, if they force Aish into the draft then that brings Carlton into the play - the club they caught red handed trying to talk Aish into leaving mid season. In effect they are are rewarding the kind of behavior they are crying about.

 

[SgtFloydPepper]

I think your club as a whole needs to take more consideration into why young players don't want to stay instead of emphasizing points to the afl and drawing lines in the sand.

I have already mentioned earlier my thoughts on your captain, but it's also the players you bring in. Last year for example, you needed to offer overs to a 20-23 year old talent with leadership aspirations and good character. Caĺlan Ward to GWS is the perfect example and Treloar is on similar lines. Instead you got Beams, Christensen and Robinson who may be talented, but all have serious character flaws. They might improve your team on field but are they the kind of people young players should be getting around? Between them, your coach and captain's unprofessional antics and this line in the sand stuff, surely a kid and his manager would be questioning why they should stay.

If you get the right people in the first place and you still can't retain players, then going to the afl with cap in hand would be justified.

I don't think Ward or Treloar were available or wanted to come to the lions last year.....we can't kick a gifthorse in the mouth - particularly when after all the players that wanted out, when some actually want to come north we really need to take advantage of that.

I'm not going to argue semantics about Rocky or Leppa with you - they're more opinions or any factual evidence. I will however point out that other than Aish, all the blokes from his draft class and beyond (i.e. those that have worked with Leppa) all signed extensions. Thus outside of Aish, we must be doing something right.

Yep. Looks a lot to me like it's time the AFL stepped in, dismissed all of your management and did what they have consistently failed to do in making your club one where players want to stay. It's clear that Lethal's stance is little more than posturing but it's bizarre that he is happy to do it at the expense of further eroding any likelihood that players want to go there let alone stay. It looks like "we're a basket case, how can we make it worse?"

Again....this has pretty much been done. The board that sacked Vossy have all been pretty much removed and replaced. I'd say the AFL had a hand in getting Swan and Schwab up north. The final pieces to the puzzle are the sorting of the welfare team with the Lamberts returning to their role (which given previous experience will be a massive boost in retaining players).

As for your last line, I'm not going to rebut points I've made previously in here. But ultimately, we can't bleed first round picks (essentially a far greater likelihood of getting a good player) and expect to ever move up the table. Whether its longer initial contracts (those that seem to get through the second season seem far more likely to hang around for a sustained period), protected trades for 1st and 2nd round picks etc, hopefully we'll see some action from the AFL before the trade period of 2016

 

[Schraderbrau]

I'm not going to argue semantics about Rocky or Leppa with you - they're more opinions or any factual evidence. I will however point out that other than Aish, all the blokes from his draft class and beyond (i.e. those that have worked with Leppa) all signed extensions. Thus outside of Aish, we must be doing something right.

So if things are so rosey up there with your younger players what's the point of all this petulant chest thumping about Aish leaving?