All-A Team

[Ytoojae]

So I'm writing this book on the greatest NBA and ABA players of all time that's going to get published.... and anyways I finally finished doing the letter A. (I've done about 95% of the data just putting the finishing touches on it; computing it all and then just formatting then I'm ready to complete the transcript process which I've been thankful enough to have as a piece by piece project unlike most books - I really lucked out)....

So here's the All-A team.

C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
F: Paul Arizin
F: Mark Aguirre
G: Ray Allen
G: Gilbert Arenas

Bench (alphabetically)

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Alvan Adams
Michael Adams
Danny Ainge
Kenny Anderson
Carmelo Anthony
Ron Artest

Others receiving recognition (current players)

Chris Andersen
Trevor Ariza
D.J. Augustin

Whose your favorite player in the NBA past or present whose last name begins with A? Why?

 

[peternorth]

C: Amechi, John
PF: Araujo
SF: Anderson, Shandon
SG: Adams, Hasan
PG: Arroyo (token)

 

[hans moleman]

Don't know much about Tiny Archibald but isn't he a hall of famer? Might warrant a spot on your bench ahead of Shareef or Kenny Anderson.

Loved watching Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf when he was on fire.
Always remember seeing the Plastic Man Stacey Augmon in the Top 10's on NBA Action.

Alaa Abdelnaby had more A's than anyone could handle.

 

[Ytoojae]

Ack... I do have Tiny in there.. Tried to put this message up too soon.

Yes, he got Arenas' spot on the starters.

Only guy to ever lead the NBA in assists and scoring in the same season.

D'oh.

I'll throw my favorite A out there as being Tiny which is why it was such a massive D'oh for me. LOL I have about 20 tapes of Nate playing. He was electric at his best but never had much of a support. Think of the Utah Jazz era with Malone and Stockton and how poor (outside of a select few) that they had around them and you have a staff that is 10 times better than what Nate had early in his career. It wasn't until he moved to the Celtics that he became a major playoff player.

Another guy that warrants at least review before I finalise is Willie Anderson, Shandon's brother.

 

[mdc]

Looks about right to me. I haven't seen Alvan Adams play, but his numbers stack up.

Anthony is a no-brainer to start ahead of Arizin though for me.

Also, I'd have a good look at Darrel Armstrong or Derek Anderson to come in for Michael Adams.

 

[peternorth]

man what a team!

C: Anderson, Cadillac
PF: Anderson, Chris
SF: Anderson, Nick
SG: Anderson, Derek
PG: Anderson, Kenny
-----------------------
Anderson, Ryan
Anderson, Shandon
Anstey, Chris

 

[Ytoojae]

Arizin's a hall of famer who went 22.8 and 8.6 over his career. Considered one of the best power forwards of all-time. Was one of the very best players of his era (same era as Russell/Cousy).

Adams had a few really powerful seasons, in particular 1990-91 when he averaged 26.5ppg and 10.5apg. Averaged 2+ steals several times.

Chris Anstey is the MVP of the All-Anderson team heh

 

[mdc]

Arizin's a hall of famer who went 22.8 and 8.6 over his career. Considered one of the best power forwards of all-time. Was one of the very best players of his era (same era as Russell/Cousy).

I don't really want to open up the era debate again (it got quite heated last time iirc), but suffice to say I don't rate dominating in an era barely removed from peach baskets all that highly.

Dude was 6"4, 190 pounds and white. He'd struggle to get a gig on an NBL bench in this era.

Adams had a few really powerful seasons, in particular 1990-91 when he averaged 26.5ppg and 10.5apg. Averaged 2+ steals several times.

That season is one of the all-time great fluke seasons. None of his other ones even come close. And even in that season, he shot under .400, hardly stellar stuff. No surprise his team won 20 games.

I'd personally opt for Derek Anderson, even though Darrel Armstrong is infinitely cooler. Derek was always a solid defender, could do a bit of everything, and was consistent over many years.

 

[DoubleA]

Nobody else noticed that he's writing a book?

 

[Ytoojae]

That really doesn't mean all that much, Double A.

Anyone can write a book. Yes, I got credibility on my side because of my former job title, but, it's still a book that'll probably find it's way into the bargain bins in most American book shops a couple of months after its American release. Unless they decide that because the publisher is Australian it'll probably never see the light of day in print here. Of course, Amazon.com will have it (where all great (and crappy) books are sold!!)

Oh and yes I understand that my grammar on these boards is pretty poor. I try and write in here as I would say it rather than to focus on punctuation, etc. I'm a much better writer when I'm focusing on an issue - have had stuff appear in Slam magazine (not that it takes much writing ability to get published in that) and the old aussie basketball magazine when I was a teenager / young adult.

 

[Ytoojae]

I don't really want to open up the era debate again (it got quite heated last time iirc), but suffice to say I don't rate dominating in an era barely removed from peach baskets all that highly.

Dude was 6"4, 190 pounds and white. He'd struggle to get a gig on an NBL bench in this era.

I've been working on a retort -- didn't ignore your post as I found it interesting.

People always take the era debate from that angle- what if Arizin had played today? That's a very fair and valid point, however, it's also fair to take it from the other angle. What if Carmelo Anthony had have played in the era of Arizin, Russell, Chamberlain, etc.? It's too easy to say that he would have dominated because of his combination of size, athleticism and skills, but it goes much deeper than that. It's more than plausible that if Carmelo Anthony had have been of that era that we'd never have heard of him, or worse, that he'd be nothing more than another player uttered in the same breath as Earl 'the Goat' Manigault.

Why? If he tried half of his shit back then that he already has in the modern era then he'd never have made it past the college game. It's doubtful that he would have made it to college in the first place.

People were less accepting of African American people. It took the strongest, most professional African American male athletes to make it. Legendary players such as Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, etc, etc. played in an era where they constantly had their lives threatened. As successful as Bill Russell was with the Celtics the greater Boston area loathed every aspect of what Bill Russell was. You either had to be very tolerant of African American people and/or much more than a basketball fan to appreciate Russell in his era. As we all know Russell was one of the greatest humanitarian's the game has ever known yet he was treated poorly. Imagine what the sports mad society of America would have done with someone such as Anthony?

It's only been in the last fifteen to twenty years that street ball has been accepted into the NBA. When I was working over there I had a good conversation with one of the more experienced scouts (25+ years of experience) in regards to Australian NBL great Darryl McDonald. What surprised me was that he said that most scouts and basketball people believed that when D-Mac was growing up he was easily better than a lot of the NBA point guards of his generation. It wasn't even close he said. The problem was that Darryl McDonald was the essence of the New York streetball style life. There are a number of high profile guys that simply didn't make it in that era because of their background and what they represented. Everybody that is anybody in New York basketball will tell you that Stephon is no match skill wise for his older brothers and that he was lucky enough to come into the NBA just as they were accepting players of that ilk. For the most part it effected point guards but to say that it didn't effect other players would be a lie. Yes, there have been some great streetball legendary players in the NBA such as Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) but for the most part they are the rare exception and not the rule.

That season is one of the all-time great fluke seasons. None of his other ones even come close. And even in that season, he shot under .400, hardly stellar stuff. No surprise his team won 20 games.

I'd personally opt for Derek Anderson, even though Darrel Armstrong is infinitely cooler. Derek was always a solid defender, could do a bit of everything, and was consistent over many years.

Adams' season was a fluke and I'll grant you that. While his other seasons didn't come close they consistently compare favorably to Derek Anderson. Anderson in my opinion was one of the more highly overrated players of his generation. Perhaps it's because of the number of injuries that he had that kept his numbers a lot lower than they may have otherwise been but they weren't all that great (especially when compared to his peers).

I loved Darrel Armstrong. He was one of my favorite players. Was incredibly entertaining to watch and one of those rare players who worked so hard on his game throughout the course of his career that in the end he can claim to have gotten more out of his talent than what I believe was really there. A crowd pleaser wherever he played. Much respect to him.

 

[The Mongrel Punt]

I don't really want to open up the era debate again (it got quite heated last time iirc), but suffice to say I don't rate dominating in an era barely removed from peach baskets all that highly.

Dude was 6"4, 190 pounds and white. He'd struggle to get a gig on an NBL bench in this era.

If Michael Johnson had've run at the same time as Jesse Owens, we'd be asking Jesse Who?

If Michael Phelps had've swam in the same era as Mark Spitz, we'd be asking Mark Who?

If Tiger Woods had played in the same era as Arnold Palmer, we'd be asking Arnold Who?

You said you didn't want to go into a debate about eras, but your comment is ludicrous. Players, and sports, evolve. Athletes get faster and better. The bar is raised, not lowered. The current players you rate so highly will one day be judged by those who come after them as well. Not really fair, is it?

 

[peternorth]

would ariza make the team if he had a poor finals?

as for carmelo, if he played during say bill russell days were there any tattooists around?

 

[mdc]

People were less accepting of African American people. It took the strongest, most professional African American male athletes to make it. Legendary players such as Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, etc, etc. played in an era where they constantly had their lives threatened. As successful as Bill Russell was with the Celtics the greater Boston area loathed every aspect of what Bill Russell was. You either had to be very tolerant of African American people and/or much more than a basketball fan to appreciate Russell in his era. As we all know Russell was one of the greatest humanitarian's the game has ever known yet he was treated poorly. Imagine what the sports mad society of America would have done with someone such as Anthony?

It's only been in the last fifteen to twenty years that street ball has been accepted into the NBA. When I was working over there I had a good conversation with one of the more experienced scouts (25+ years of experience) in regards to Australian NBL great Darryl McDonald. What surprised me was that he said that most scouts and basketball people believed that when D-Mac was growing up he was easily better than a lot of the NBA point guards of his generation. It wasn't even close he said. The problem was that Darryl McDonald was the essence of the New York streetball style life. There are a number of high profile guys that simply didn't make it in that era because of their background and what they represented. Everybody that is anybody in New York basketball will tell you that Stephon is no match skill wise for his older brothers and that he was lucky enough to come into the NBA just as they were accepting players of that ilk. For the most part it effected point guards but to say that it didn't effect other players would be a lie. Yes, there have been some great streetball legendary players in the NBA such as Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) but for the most part they are the rare exception and not the rule.

Your point re: the treatment of Black players (and people more generally) in those times certainly has a lot of validity, but on the other hand I'm not sure Wilt Chamberlain, for example, would fit the bill of your model professional athlete/citizen. His overwhleming talent allowed him to succeed. I'd wager Anthony would have been in the same boat.

As for the streetball stuff...well, New York folk are notorious for overrating their own. The one thing they consistently miss is that skills that are key to being a great streetballer very rarely translate over to the professional arena. So whilst Stephon's brothers may well have been more skilled than him in a streetball sense, I don't imagine they had his combinations of speed/athleticism, which is essentially what made him such a good NBA prospect.

Also, just as an aside...despite Melo being very "street" in terms of attitude, his game actually is pretty damn old school. Work the elbow, pound the block, mid-range jumpers, no over-dribbling...he's as fundamentally sound a player offensively as there is in the NBA.

If Michael Johnson had've run at the same time as Jesse Owens, we'd be asking Jesse Who?

If Michael Phelps had've swam in the same era as Mark Spitz, we'd be asking Mark Who?

If Tiger Woods had played in the same era as Arnold Palmer, we'd be asking Arnold Who?

You said you didn't want to go into a debate about eras, but your comment is ludicrous. Players, and sports, evolve. Athletes get faster and better. The bar is raised, not lowered. The current players you rate so highly will one day be judged by those who come after them as well. Not really fair, is it?

Look, were it up to me, I'd prefer not to compare across eras at all. It is, as you say, "unfair".

But if we are to open that can of worms, we need to do so honestly. Basketball in the 1950's was a very new and undeveloped sport. From a pure numbers standpoint, the amount of people who were trying to get into the NBA in the 50's compared to now is miniscule. Not to mention that the majority of players were white, and the level of professionalism was far lower. So it's only fair to take that into account when trying to put together an "All-Time" team.

Now, there are certain players from earlier eras who clearly had the talent to be very good players in any era - what I would call transcendental players, and those are the guys that really deserve recognition. For example, with today's training/science/professionalism etc, Wilt could well have been a great player in this era as well. Arizin, though, couldn't. Too short, too white. It's that simple.

On the other hand, take something like soccer; the sport has been around for many many years, widely played for the majority of that period, and athleticism/height aren't terribly important to the sport. Here, I'm quite happy to compare Platini to Zidane, for example, because their playing field was relatively level. In basketball, that simply is not the case.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Yeah Melo's game is as fundamentally sounds as it gets (offensively).

And I take every NYC playground legend stuff with a grain of salt. If they win, there is no barrier for NBA teams to take them. Whatever institutional resistance there was would have been broken down by Iverson.

Off the top of my head, he is the only 'playground' player to have sustained success and even he had tone his stuff down somewhat

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

If Tiger Woods had played in the same era as Arnold Palmer, we'd be asking Arnold Who?

Poor example. This comparison can't be made because you're failing to factor in major advancement, that being equipment technology. Golf has been impacted by equipment technology advancement moreso than any other sport. Clubs and balls in particular are totally different than what Palmer had in his era. Let's not forget Jack Nicklaus (who to date has Woods covered) was at the height of his powers when Palmer was playing and every golf fan remember the name Arnold Palmer.

 

[peternorth]

Poor example.

so good call bad call/....

BAD CALL!

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

so good call bad call/....

BAD CALL!

Good call, insightful call from you.

 

[Ytoojae]

Also, just as an aside...despite Melo being very "street" in terms of attitude, his game actually is pretty damn old school. Work the elbow, pound the block, mid-range jumpers, no over-dribbling...he's as fundamentally sound a player offensively as there is in the NBA..

Agreed, definitely. I was speaking more so in regards to his attitude (as you caught on to). His skills I have no problem with. He's as old school as any player in the NBA save for maybe Jason Kidd. Just my opinion.

As far as the NY stuff goes - I can see your point that they do. Case in point would be Sebastian Telfair whom New York guaranteed would be the best point guard in the NBA come two or three seasons into his career. However, Marbury's brothers had jaw dropping athleticism. That was *not* their problem. Their problem was their way of life (background), same as D-Mac's.

I'd like to say that the player who began to change a lot of the way that the NBA perceived streetball players was Kenny Anderson. Although he had an underwhelming career (in comparison to what was expected of him) when all was said and done he was street. Yes, Iverson's been the most successful 'street' player, but he wasn't the one who started it. I believe Rajon Rondo's well on his way to getting to that point though he probably won't receive the same amount of accolades from the media as AI because of his inability to score. Rondo was the player that my scouting friend compared best to McDonald. This before Rondo took off last season was impressive. D-Mac's knock aside from his background was that he couldn't shoot but had everything else going for him skill wise so I can see the Rondo comparison.

 

[peternorth]

DMac has played in the olympics hasnt he?

 

[DarwinRoo]

I'd drop Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for Lew Alcindor.

 

[The Mongrel Punt]

Poor example. This comparison can't be made because you're failing to factor in major advancement, that being equipment technology. Golf has been impacted by equipment technology advancement moreso than any other sport. Clubs and balls in particular are totally different than what Palmer had in his era. Let's not forget Jack Nicklaus (who to date has Woods covered) was at the height of his powers when Palmer was playing and every golf fan remember the name Arnold Palmer.

Perhaps it is a poor comparison. My knowledge of golf-history is patchy at best. The theory behind it, though, is not flawed at all. That said, the following is not directed at you, but more elaborating on what I stated before.

In relation to basketball, rule changes and changes to the court itself have made it a different game. That doesn't mean that you belittle the achievements of anyone who played before these changes. Games evolve and change. Players must be judged on their merits at the time they played. They were, after all, playing within the confines of the rules and systems in which they were forced to play.

Pretty sure I saw Nate Robinson swat a shot in Yao Ming's face a couple of seasons back (Personally, I thought it was a foul). It may have been an abberation, but it proves that there was a place in the game for someone so undersized when matched up against someone who should be so physically dominant.

Charles Barkley is one of the best ever at his position despite being regarded as undersized.

Let's be honest here - if we're talking athleticism being the defining factor in basketball, Larry Bird (one of my faves) is an ordinary player. Could he get a game now? The help defence would have to be pretty damn good on his team.

In terms of Azirin, perhaps in a modern-day system, he may have been playing guard, and may have been good enough. Surely he could've scaled the dizzy heights of some of the other luminaries mentioned in this thread?

 

[peternorth]

I'd drop Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for Lew Alcindor.

racist

 

[Ytoojae]

nazi.

 

[DarwinRoo]

racist

Aren't they both black?