The Ancients Ancient Civilizations

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Human Civilisation would have been impossible before the end of the last Ice Age about 11-12000BCE because of all the fresh water being locked up in ice causing the rest of the planet that wasn't too cold to become too dry for settlement.

So sceptical about anything that claims to be from before then.

Shows that most of the early known sedentary sites are from about 1000-2000 years after the ice age ended. Though we know so little about these peoples that I'm more than happy to read up on anything found in this sort of timeline which is reasonable.
 
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The most famous evidence of ancient civilisations is the Piri Reis map of 1513. The map was compiled by a Turk explorer who complied the map from some 20 resource reference maps . The coastline of antartica was shown and has been proven to be extremely accurate. Antartica hadn't even been discovered until 1800s. The interesting thing is that the map shows the coastline free of ice which has been dated at some 6000 bc circa. So arguably the source map had been prepared some time before 6000 BC and by a civilisation that could and did travel the oceans to as far as antartica. Some have suggested that the depiction of antartica is a fabrication but aerial surveying has proved the accuracy disproving that. We can't know who of course but an ancient civilisation did exist who authored this resource map. Interesting
 
Occidental said:
If you removed all the imported crops (wheat, rice, corn, barley, citrus, legumes, sugar cane etc) and then removed all the imported domesticated food animals (sheep, pigs, chickens, goats, cows) then removed all imported domesticated animals of burden (horses, oxen, camels, donkeys) you would have to make a civilisation from what was indigenous to Australia.

Has anyone yet domesticated and farmed kangaroos, wallabies, wombats, numbats, tassie devils, emus, etc...

Name one native Australian plant that can be used as a staple food crop for a large population?

So there are no native animals that are domesticated for food. No native animals domesticated for labour/power and no domesticated plants that can be grown en masse for food.

How then would you have fed an entire city??

Try it out...gather 1000 people together and supply them with
only native Australian animals and plants (you are free to choose any you like). Then see if you can all survive and prosper building some sort of city and living permanently in the one place.
Click to expand...
Didn't farming pre date the domestication of animals by about 1500 years. So domesticating animals isn't a pre requisite for farming. Maybe you should of done your homework on Australian plants as staple foods! Australian native plants have been used for thousands of years by Aboriginal people as staple foods. The bush tomato and wattle seed are traditional staple foods collected in Central Australia by the local aboriginal communities. The Aboriginals used wattle seed to make a type of flour. They cooked this often in ovens made in a hole in the ground using hot coals and hot rocks.
 
I never said domesticating animals was a prerequisite for farming.
I said there are were no native Australian animals in existence for food and labour.
I was responding to the question of why indigenous Australians never developed large scale settlements/cities.
So go ahead and farm, but do so without any help. Go collect your wattle seeds and bush tomatoes and build yourself a permanent city and have them fed day after day, year after year on what you’re suggesting.
No help in ploughing, carrying loads, or transport. All labour must be human labour. No domesticated source of protein from any meat either. All meat must be caught. Not farmed.
Pick anywhere in Australia you like and work out what to feed a permanent city of 1000 people from only native Australian flora and fauna.
Good luck.
 
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The post you responded to had 2 questions within the one. One was specifically regarding farming and you gave reasons why. I just pointed out out that farming still could have occurred just like it did elsewhere without the need for domesticated animals. Domesticating animals and domesticating crops took thousands of years not overnight, so I don't see your point asking someone to go pick anywhere in Australia and see if they can feed a permanent city of 1000 overnight, when it took thousands of years for domesticating crops. I should also point out there is currently wattle seed farming.
Carry loads, or transport, I am guessing the wheel could have helped, you now going to claim there were no trees to make wooden wheels to help with loads/transportation. There was no native animals in existence for food? you said it, so they didn't eat Kangaroo or Emu's? Couldn't wood from the trees have helped in building fences, would you like me to pick anywhere in Australia where I could knock down a few trees, build fences, capture some kangaroos and emus and contain them within these fences. You think this is not possible!! Permanent settlements could have been built around these and eventually after thousands of years these could have become larger......not suggesting cities the size of London or Paris....excuses excuses.
 
Forest Bomber said:
The post you responded to had 2 questions within the one. One was specifically regarding farming and you gave reasons why. I just pointed out out that farming still could have occurred just like it did elsewhere without the need for domesticated animals. Domesticating animals and domesticating crops took thousands of years not overnight, so I don't see your point asking someone to go pick anywhere in Australia and see if they can feed a permanent city of 1000 overnight, when it took thousands of years for domesticating crops. I should also point out there is currently wattle seed farming.
Carry loads, or transport, I am guessing the wheel could have helped, you now going to claim there were no trees to make wooden wheels to help with loads/transportation. There was no native animals in existence for food? you said it, so they didn't eat Kangaroo or Emu's? Couldn't wood from the trees have helped in building fences, would you like me to pick anywhere in Australia where I could knock down a few trees, build fences, capture some kangaroos and emus and contain them within these fences. You think this is not possible!! Permanent settlements could have been built around these and eventually after thousands of years these could have become larger......not suggesting cities the size of London or Paris....excuses excuses.
Click to expand...
Nothing you propose would allow for the successful establishment of a permanent human settlement of 1000 people.
Why you finish with “excuses, excuses” is a mystery.
But what is not a mystery is the fact that no permanent human settlement of anything approaching 1000 people appears to have been established in Australia before Euro settlement.
It didn’t happen and I’m proposing it didn’t happen as it couldn’t have happened.
If it could have been done, people were here long enough to have made it so.
 
Occidental said:
Nothing you propose would allow for the successful establishment of a permanent human settlement of 1000 people.
Why you finish with “excuses, excuses” is a mystery.
But what is not a mystery is the fact that no permanent human settlement of anything approaching 1000 people appears to have been established in Australia before Euro settlement.
It didn’t happen and I’m proposing it didn’t happen as it couldn’t have happened.
If it could have been done, people were here long enough to have made it so.
Click to expand...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...e-ancient-eel-traps-recognised-world-heritage

Farming of eels dated at 6,600 years ago and also mentions “a couple of hundred” stone houses surrounding the lake. So there's that..
 
deklares said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...e-ancient-eel-traps-recognised-world-heritage

Farming of eels dated at 6,600 years ago and also mentions “a couple of hundred” stone houses surrounding the lake. So there's that..
Click to expand...
Yeah, I reckon a relatively easily available protein source like eels would have been the best bet for establishing a large permanent settlement.
But again, the initial conundrum was, could it be enough for a city?
I chose 1000 people as an example. That’s not really a city anyway, that’s only really a town.
So how would a city of 50,000 have gone for indigenous Australians? Even a huge supply of eels wouldn’t cut it.
 

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