another meaningless win?

[cormick]

Geelong had access to father son picks that netted them Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins.

No one else has that, so it's not really a model.

And look at the teams we have beaten, Port, West Coast and a Brisbane side missing a host of players, including their two best.

We have defs improved, but we aren't taking it up to and challenging the best like Melbourne has. If we can beat or run with the teams in the 8, I will be stoked. But unless that happens, I don't want a repeat of 2008 where we win games against bottom teams and get an inflated win loss at the expense of getting the picks we need.

Hawkins, the only real potential top-10 they picked up, played a very minimal role in their dominance over the last 3 years (although is starting to step up this year), and neither Scarlett nor Ablett were rated particularly highly - especially Gary jnr. Shows that the high draft picks still aren't the bee-all and end-all.

6 weeks ago we ran all the way with Hawthorn and probably should have won. They're definitely a top-8 team and might even sneak into top 4 calculations if their form continues. Since then we've been far from embarrased against the second best team in the comp who, the following week, defeated a top-4 team by a similar margin whilst playing at their home ground (Freo @ subi). Sure the Essendon game was a let-down, but 3 wins, one poor performance & two "honourable losses" isn't too bad at all.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

So do people really think we're "locked and loaded" now eh? Tip top and "cherry ripe"?

Yeah I thought that to at the end of 2008 , thought it was good to get the experience of those wins into our list, even dismissed the importance of high draft picks, we were right...Cleve was gonna come good & kick a bag, Cotch was gonna have a full pre-season, play 22 games and take the comp. by storm as would Foley, young guns like Rance, Putt, Gourdis in the wings...JON would silence the critics, another great year from Richo, Thursty to build on his 08 form as would a rejuvenated Simmo...those thoughts lasted until approximately halfway through the first quarter of Round 1 , 2009....

 

[docko911]

So do people really think we're "locked and loaded" now eh? Tip top and "cherry ripe"?

Yeah I thought that to at the end of 2008 , thought it was good to get the experience of those wins into our list, even dismissed the importance of high draft picks, we were right...Cleve was gonna come good & kick a bag, Cotch was gonna have a full pre-season, play 22 games and take the comp. by storm as would Foley, young guns like Rance, Putt, Gourdis in the wings...JON would silence the critics, another great year from Richo, Thursty to build on his 08 form as would a rejuvenated Simmo...those thoughts lasted until approximately halfway through the first quarter of Round 1 , 2009....

I too was disappointed in 2009 when these things didn't happen.
However TW never played those blokes enough so there is a huge difference this time. Plus our main core of players are getting closer to their peaks, this time it will be different. 6-8 additions at the end of the year won't hurt but then we should be adding at least 6 new players to our senior list yearly to maintain a strong team.

 

[I Rock]

On a side note what really have Melbourne achieved this year? Beside being more competertive than last year they are only 4.5 wins after 12 rounds and more than likely to finish 11 - 13 at the end of the year.

I will support tanking when someone can prove it brings premiership success.

St Kilda - NO; been a comeprtive side for years it's been a long time since they have been at the bottom of the pile.

Carlton - NO; sure will likely play finals this year and maybe the next. However I doubt will make any real impact and after that start the slide again.

Melbourne - NO; 4.5 after 12 rounds is hardly dominating.

etc etc.

Success is about development and culture; early picks can net you stars and I love watching Martin, Cotchin and Deledio fire but teams win flags not picks.

 

[_RT_]

So do people really think we're "locked and loaded" now eh? Tip top and "cherry ripe"?

Yeah I thought that to at the end of 2008 , thought it was good to get the experience of those wins into our list, even dismissed the importance of high draft picks, we were right...Cleve was gonna come good & kick a bag, Cotch was gonna have a full pre-season, play 22 games and take the comp. by storm as would Foley, young guns like Rance, Putt, Gourdis in the wings...JON would silence the critics, another great year from Richo, Thursty to build on his 08 form as would a rejuvenated Simmo...those thoughts lasted until approximately halfway through the first quarter of Round 1 , 2009....

There is a few differences between then and now Mario:
- Back then we were hoping that Cleve was going to come good, right now we're seeing that Jack is going to be good.
- Back then we were hoping Cotch would have a full preseason and take the comp by storm, right now we're seeing Cotch have a full season and starting to have people take notice.
- Back then we were hoping that JON Rance Putt and Gourdis would step up from the wings and show something, right now we've got Martin Nason Astbury Graham Vickery amongst others who are stepping up and showing something.
- Back then we were hoping that a 33 year old Richo would back up his brilliant year and carry us to glory, right now were looking at guys like Deledio to have a few brilliant years and join the others in hauling us up the ladder.

That is why things are different this time around, we're looking at the kids and seeing them start to believe that they can take this club forward, in turn we are starting to believe that they can take this club forward.

 

[Tiger2709]

So do people really think we're "locked and loaded" now eh? Tip top and "cherry ripe"?

Yeah I thought that to at the end of 2008 , thought it was good to get the experience of those wins into our list, even dismissed the importance of high draft picks, we were right...Cleve was gonna come good & kick a bag, Cotch was gonna have a full pre-season, play 22 games and take the comp. by storm as would Foley, young guns like Rance, Putt, Gourdis in the wings...JON would silence the critics, another great year from Richo, Thursty to build on his 08 form as would a rejuvenated Simmo...those thoughts lasted until approximately halfway through the first quarter of Round 1 , 2009....

Chalk and Cheese, this is a different team with a coach that has a plan that is within these boys capabilities, if the jumper is to never hit the floor, how can we turn around and not give our best.

I say just let them play and what will be will be, as a matter of interest which is the last team to get a premiership out of tanking (serious question).

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

I agree RT , but we still have still have too many below-par players on the list and we still need more depth, ...a few injuries to key player or even solid players would set back a good side, it would seriously derail us....and lets all hope Martin & Jack actually do re-sign with us....when guys like Edwards , Jackson & White are our depth , we will be a good side...until then we can't just gloss over and ignore things on the back of a few wins over out of form/crap sides..we were still very sloppy against Port, WCE & Brisbane, but they failed to punish us or capitalise on our errors as their ineptitude was greater than ours...they all allowed us far too much latitude ...better sides won't and will bring us down to earth very quickly and with a loud thud....

 

[Tigerland]

the thing is we can loose games and get the lower pick and the extra picks, but the more games we win the more confident the boys become and the easier it is for players we draft to adapt to afl level. look at collingwood, they havent had a low pick in a while and have still picked out gems like sidebottom and beams and they have adjusted to afl level so easily.

____________________________

Fraser, Thomas, Sidebottom. All in the top 10. There's others. Cloke F/S. Shaw F/S X 2.

They have hardly been getting a bad deal. They have great resources and can develop so so players into top liners. Saying that, I reckon in 5 years the Pies will struggle.

But I agree with you folester, win games, forget draft picks.
It's all about next year. We win 7 or so games, we'll have a pick in the 1st dozen.

 

[nut]

The point is we have bottomed out.... it's done. We will not get a PP this seaons, so I'd rather get pick 6 or pick 8 then finish with a spoon.

Momentum means everything for a young list.

 

[_RT_]

I agree RT , but we still have still have too many below-par players on the list and we still need more depth, ...a few injuries to key player or even solid players would set back a good side, it would seriously derail us....and lets all hope Martin & Jack actually do re-sign with us....when guys like Edwards , Jackson & White are our depth , we will be a good side...until then we can't just gloss over and ignore things on the back of a few wins over out of form/crap sides..we were still very sloppy against Port, WCE & Brisbane, but they failed to punish us or capitalise on our errors as their ineptitude was greater than ours...they all allowed us far too much latitude ...better sides won't and will bring us down to earth very quickly and with a loud thud....

Can't talk for everyone else, but I know that I'm certainly not sitting here thinking that everything is gold. I realise that there is plenty of work still to be done before we are a genuine contender, but right now we're seeing some queries that we had regarding the side being answered from within.

While we've only beaten sides that are struggling, its the manner of how we've won which has been impressive. Against Port we were the more desperate side and once we got the lead continued to grind them, to win by 8 goals in conditions like that was equal to a 10-12 goal win in dry conditions. Against the Eagles we jumped them early and kept our foot on their throats all game, every time they mounted a challenge we were able to respond and take the ascendency back. Last night we again jumped the Lions and then were able to withstand everything they threw at us, even when they got to within 5 points in the last I was still confident that we would win.

The one constant in all the wins though was that they were all achieved without great influence by the older guys. Guys like Cousins, Newman & Tuck provide a steadying influence when needed and guide the youngsters but they aren't the matchwinners like Richo & Brown were. In the most you will see these guys step up for a quarter or a half but its guys like Cotchin Martin Riewoldt Edwards White Nason Farmer Graham Vickery McGuane Moore Thursfield who are all under 70 games that have been leading the way along with Deledio & Jackson.

 

[tigerT]

Its groundhog day i tell ya..... you watch...

 

[TheProwler]

Can't talk for everyone else, but I know that I'm certainly not sitting here thinking that everything is gold. I realise that there is plenty of work still to be done before we are a genuine contender, but right now we're seeing some queries that we had regarding the side being answered from within.

While we've only beaten sides that are struggling, its the manner of how we've won which has been impressive. Against Port we were the more desperate side and once we got the lead continued to grind them, to win by 8 goals in conditions like that was equal to a 10-12 goal win in dry conditions. Against the Eagles we jumped them early and kept our foot on their throats all game, every time they mounted a challenge we were able to respond and take the ascendency back. Last night we again jumped the Lions and then were able to withstand everything they threw at us, even when they got to within 5 points in the last I was still confident that we would win.

The one constant in all the wins though was that they were all achieved without great influence by the older guys. Guys like Cousins, Newman & Tuck provide a steadying influence when needed and guide the youngsters but they aren't the matchwinners like Richo & Brown were. In the most you will see these guys step up for a quarter or a half but its guys like Cotchin Martin Riewoldt Edwards White Nason Farmer Graham Vickery McGuane Moore Thursfield who are all under 70 games that have been leading the way along with Deledio & Jackson.

Keep pumping up them tyres mate

If we truly want ultimate success we need to do what almost all of the current top eight sides have done over the last 5-10 years, build the list. These wins at the moment give the fans something to cheer about and even smile at knowing blokes like JR, Martin, Cotch and Lids will be still runing about for us for sometime yet. Lets just not get to too excited yet becuase just around the corner will be the next wake-up call and thud back to earth we come. Had we beat the Saints the other week then I may not think these wins are meaningless but given the sides we have beaten I don't take too much from that.

Lets see how we go against Sydney in a fortnight to see just how much our group has grown.

 

[santa claws]

anyone who thinks these wins are meaningless are fools. If we had a side full of old players then yes. But we dont. The kids are building confidance and belief in each other that only comes from wins. They are getting confidance and belief in the messages from the coaching staff. Every win is important from now til the end of the season....... Momentum going into next season is what we need. A few more wins and our membership will sky rocket.

what humbug its been shown time and again you dont have to win to build confidence and belief.
the kids will build both win lose or draw.

its also been shown momentum going into a new yr is a furphy especially when applied to early developing teams. and especially when applied to the rfc.
cattle first people then when you are sure you have enough cattle cattle to start climbing go all out.

my greatest concern frm here on in is teams putting the que in the rack.

we have been down this path many times and we now go down it again. you can count on your fingers the amount of top 8 sides we have beaten over the last 6 or 8 yrs.

when we start beating very good sides with something to play for or at least manage to push them hard regularly you will know we have arrived.

look we all know with all the crap we were copping from the media and the lack of recognition etc that a few wins were needed just to get people of our backs that has happened but players just dont magically become fantastic players those who have the tools to work with have improved it was always going to happen jack whos been coming for a few yrs collins who i liked connors all had the tools to improve with. there are players who dont.

 

[maceman]

From a supporter, armchair watcher and listener, it is bloody fantastic and exciting to get some wins on the board. I can only imagine what it's like for the players both experienced and first year. Meaningless? No way. Keep going boys.

 

[_RT_]

Keep pumping up them tyres mate

If we truly want ultimate success we need to do what almost all of the current top eight sides have done over the last 5-10 years, build the list. These wins at the moment give the fans something to cheer about and even smile at knowing blokes like JR, Martin, Cotch and Lids will be still runing about for us for sometime yet. Lets just not get to too excited yet becuase just around the corner will be the next wake-up call and thud back to earth we come. Had we beat the Saints the other week then I may not think these wins are meaningless but given the sides we have beaten I don't take too much from that.

Lets see how we go against Sydney in a fortnight to see just how much our group has grown.

Not pumping up anyones tyres, just stating that unlike 2008 this years results aren't being achieved by a bunch of old timers trying to save their careers, but rather a group of kids trying to establish careers.

 

[_RT_]

what humbug its been shown time and again you dont have to win to build confidence and belief.
the kids will build both win lose or draw.

its also been shown momentum going into a new yr is a furphy especially when applied to early developing teams. and especially when applied to the rfc.
cattle first people then when you are sure you have enough cattle cattle to start climbing go all out.

my greatest concern frm here on in is teams putting the que in the rack.

we have been down this path many times and we now go down it again. you can count on your fingers the amount of top 8 sides we have beaten over the last 6 or 8 yrs.

when we start beating very good sides with something to play for or at least manage to push them hard regularly you will know we have arrived.

look we all know with all the crap we were copping from the media and the lack of recognition etc that a few wins were needed just to get people of our backs that has happened but players just dont magically become fantastic players those who have the tools to work with have improved it was always going to happen jack whos been coming for a few yrs collins who i liked connors all had the tools to improve with. there are players who dont.

We're actually starting to get some real recognition from the media, this morning SEN were giving us a good old fashioned pump up.

As for pushing/beating sides with something to play for the next month will answer the questions as we play Sydney and Roos fighting for a top 8 spot as well as Freo & Pies fighting for a top 4 spot. Will winning 1-2 of them as well as pushing the other 2 answer your doubts?

 

[nut]

what humbug its been shown time and again you dont have to win to build confidence and belief.
the kids will build both win lose or draw.

So when do we start to win????? do we just keep losing and losing and gather picks year after year??? As RT used Freo as an example we can win ad still improve..

its also been shown momentum going into a new yr is a furphy especially when applied to early developing teams. and especially when applied to the rfc.

It;s a difference of opinion how far we are down the rebuild... I think we have the foundations in place..

cattle first people then when you are sure you have enough cattle cattle to start climbing go all out.

We have the cattle.... yes we need more but we have shown that we can bring in quality from late picks and rookie selections...

my greatest concern frm here on in is teams putting the que in the rack.

thats their choice... the gain in lying down this season is not that great...

we have been down this path many times and we now go down it again. you can count on your fingers the amount of top 8 sides we have beaten over the last 6 or 8 yrs.

when we start beating very good sides with something to play for or at least manage to push them hard regularly you will know we have arrived.

look we all know with all the crap we were copping from the media and the lack of recognition etc that a few wins were needed just to get people of our backs that has happened but players just dont magically become fantastic players those who have the tools to work with have improved it was always going to happen jack whos been coming for a few yrs collins who i liked connors all had the tools to improve with. there are players who dont.

Can I ask you who we need to cut from the current starting 22??? considering we have Foley to come in, players like Morton, Post and Polak in th 2's working hard to get back in...

Who would you delist???

 

[King Elvis]

Exactly guys.

Tanking achieves something if you have an old list, but we have a young list, these kids need to believe they can play at this level, the only way they can do this is by following the coaches instructions and see it pay off!!

The jumper will never hit the floor.

Tiges have been great, I'm enjoying watching you guys now, and what you've said is spot on - one win got your boys confident that they're at least heading in the right direction, and now look at thow they're performing.

You've got a great coach too, love Hardwick, can't believe Port didn't take him. Loved the way he handled the Riewoldt non-interview as well; no bullshit or deflection, put his hand up straight away and took responsibility.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

So when do we start to win????? do we just keep losing and losing and gather picks year after year???

This is a very pertinent point. You don't just fill up on draft picks year after year, then pull the trigger and Bam, you're in the top four. Generally speaking, there will always be a time when you are finishing mid table, and it is development of the players as a group that will see them move forward. Mateship, personalities, bonding, etc are all the major ingredients which hasten this process IMO... not the number beside the players' names when they were drafted.

So many people had issues with JR's so called arrogant attitude at times over the past couple of years. I loved it, something we haven't had for ages, apart from a small taste from Browny. Now that he's leading from the front, that confidence becomes contagious, and the others are growing around it. Of course, there are others with different traits having a similar affect. Adding the right players to this group, which fill our needs, and they will be embraced and develop also.

It's not so much a culture, but an environment that we are building.

And as I have stated in another thread, the last thing we want to do is drive someone like Dustin Martin up to GWS for the sake of a draft pick

 

[Bazzar]

You don't just fill up on draft picks year after year, then pull the trigger and Bam, you're in the top four.

Quote of the month

 

[_RT_]

And as I have stated in another thread, the last thing we want to do is drive someone like Dustin Martin up to GWS for the sake of a draft pick

Agree with all that you said and it would be interesting to read the responses of the pro tanking brigade if Martin was to walk because we spent the next year or 2 tanking for picks

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Agree with all that you said and it would be interesting to read the responses of the pro tanking brigade if Martin was to walk because we spent the next year or 2 tanking for picks

Just watch JR in the huddle as he sings the song, then see his reaction as DH whispers in his ear that he'll be playing CHB for the rest of the year. Way to kill that kid's passion

Good luck re-signing him too.

And there are other long-term consequences of tanking, they were written all over Brett Ratten's face last night when asked a semi-tough question on the topic on Ch ONE.

Kinda reminded me of the situation Wally Waldron found himself in with the Melbourne Storm. At the time, it seems like such a good idea. But, for many years after, you only need to fall out with one person and all of a sudden, something that was supposedly written in blood today becomes tomorrow's headline.

 

[YellowandBlackBlood]

what humbug its been shown time and again you dont have to win to build confidence and belief.
the kids will build both win lose or draw.

its also been shown momentum going into a new yr is a furphy especially when applied to early developing teams. and especially when applied to the rfc.
cattle first people then when you are sure you have enough cattle cattle to start climbing go all out.

my greatest concern frm here on in is teams putting the que in the rack.

we have been down this path many times and we now go down it again. you can count on your fingers the amount of top 8 sides we have beaten over the last 6 or 8 yrs

when we start beating very good sides with something to play for or at least manage to push them hard regularly you will know we have arrived.

look we all know with all the crap we were copping from the media and the lack of recognition etc that a few wins were needed just to get people of our backs that has happened but players just dont magically become fantastic players those who have the tools to work with have improved it was always going to happen jack whos been coming for a few yrs collins who i liked connors all had the tools to improve with. there are players who dont.

Posted on "Now they love us":

COMPLETELY DISAGREE!!!!!

Posts like these miss the point entirely. We are trying to impart a new game plan on the team. The perfection of this game plan is PARAMOUNT! If we play all of our kids, how can the team learn to GEL? It has taken till the last four games to have the team start to feel comfortable with the Dimma game plan. They still have not perfected it. They, in fact, have still a long way to go before they do that. So why do people want to break the team up and go back to square one? These boys need to play together as much as possible. This is far more important than tanking. Winning meaningless games THIS TIME will instil more and more confidence in guys like Martin, Cotchin and Deledio and that as much as anything will make them think that the team is going somewhere and then are far less likely to jump ship when they are given an opportunity. You obviously haven't played competitive sport if you think that these guys would prefer to lose. Just imagine if we lost all our remaining games by big margins. Martin will start thinking that he is in the wrong place, a place buried with a losing mentality. He is FAR more likely then to accept an offer from GWS!
In the past we won a few games at the end of the season because Richo had a day out. That used to make us happy but that sort of day out would never lead to future success. A one man team never goes anywhere. It usually meant that we finished ninth. Yes that was meaningless. The difference now is that winning by a collective team effort from our young guns like Riewoldt, Martin, Cotchin, Nason, Edwards, Collins, Connors etc. will give the team a total belief in Dimma's game plan and set a launch pad for 2011 and beyond! If you cannot tell that winning the way we are now is so different to the past, you know nothing about football.....